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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 667627 times)
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markm
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December 23, 2013, 02:45:37 AM
 #2881


The equivalent of what you're describing for writing would be an AI that can output readable and uniquely stylistic prose, but that's not what Devtome asks for.

It relies on human generated content and the ability to share and remix that content. How are people going to crawl into my closed source brain to see how I think of topics, conceptualize storylines, and string sentences together? Would there be a category that said, "I want a low-sci-fi voice tagged first-person and dark humor vs an academic voice tagged archaic english lexicon?" (Definitely an interesting concept that I wouldn't have thought of without this discussion). It seems more practical to put the writing up, and also put explain the writing process if there's enough interest for it.


Perfect example. Thank you very much!

But hey, after this discussion I would conclude that this is exactly what devtome secretly wants to achieve: to substitute the writer with an algorithm.


I think the CC BY-SA license and opensource are highly compatible concepts, but they're not strictly the same thing. There might be a demand for open-source voice synthesizers and that is a very different project than human generated content that is not locked away by copyright. Both are valid, and the degree of their implementation will depend on the demand.

I agree.

Hey I like artificial intelligence. I would love nothing more than to one day have conversations with an android like data.

Devcoin should absolutely have a big section about artificial intelligence. But it shouldn't interfere or impose on the human intelligence of any participant that wants to contribute.



In a way, kind of.

First off, an illustrator of some kind maybe, that can, given a novel, try to illustrate it.

That way eventually maybe instead of spending millions of devcoins hiring human actors to act out a plot, each person will be free to let their own computer illustrate/animate it for them using their own preferences as to what goblins look like, how a dark and storm night looks, whether a dark and stormy night seems to them to be better illustrated with a musical score or just storm sound-effects or both, and so on and so on.

Right now when we get an animated illustration of a famous novel or book (e.g. the Bible, or a Dickens novel, or Lord of the Rings etc) we get just a particular artists' or director's or film production crew's interpretation of the novel or book as cast in moving images or enacted as one particlar play or screenplay more or less "true to the original".

There is massive need for the ability to automatically illustrate things; nowadays millions of devcoins worth of wealth goes into making just one visual representation of what happens to happen in a game someone plays, and this acts as a massive "moat" or barrier standing in the way of game development.

The plot and mechanics of a play or game or event or performance are in many cases the important part. People still read novels even though movies have been made of them. Partly this might even be due to the failure of many movie versions of a novel to faithfully represent the actual novel. They tend not to actually enact the novel graphically but in fact to chop up the plot, change it around even, alter the gender of some characters maybe, all kinds of changes. They seldom actually just directly display what the actual events described in the novel, in the order they are described, might actually look like.

There are lots of games out there that only use text to describe events and characters and settings and objects, and part of why is that that is the most basic and inexpensive way of representing the situations and events and settings. To create a graphical client that would illustrate such games would be hard, but it would save billions of cost compared to hiring a movie director and crew of actors to enact each and every possible permutation of states such a game could be in.

It is also hard to go in reverse: to have actual 3D models of which you only get to see a 2D view, and from what you see on the 2D screen figure out what objects are supposedly there, how much damage which weapon did to what and stuff like that.

It is two very different approaches, in one approach you have a state of affairs and it can be depicted in various ways, in text or with various artists' graphical impressions or with various attempts at 3D clients that attempt to put together some kind of illustration that accurately and concisely and conveniently represents to players what the actual state of affairs happens to be. In another approach you just get to see images of what some artist thought such a state of affairs might look like, which can make it very hard to actually compute exactly what state of affairs it is that the artist is trying to convey.

Ultimately yes it would be nice to have a narrator program that can look at the actions of 3D models and deduce what they are doing what is happening what state of affairs they are depicting and thus be able to describe in words what is visible and what it means in terms of a state of affairs.

But when we post to the English-language devtome typically most of the words we use are available in dictionaries, those that are not are often true nouns; the point is all those words are free open source words, not copyright photographs of words so that other people cannot use the same words in their compositions; and furthermore the words are font-independent.  We don't have to buy a library of letter-sequences or a patented word-sequencer to use them.

I agree that right now it is hard to find a free open source model of each and every object depicted in arbitrary photographs or a free open source model of each and every instrument that a musical score calls for.

But we should bear that in mind at all times, so as to try to avoid using photographs featuring objects we lack free open source models of for example, instead trying to first get free open source photos (eventually actual models) of each of the objects that are included in the photo so that eventually we can compose the photo.

Devcoin is supposed to be about development, about developing things, free open source things.

So it should focus more on how to develop music or images than on merely trying to fill storage space with some tiny sample of all the possible images and music that can be constructed given the components from which music and images are developed.

Yes initially we need to "cheat", for example by having 2D images of goblins orcs motorcars ships shells sealing-wax or any other objects that the composer or designer of a scenario or situation or plotline or holonovel might want or need to incorporate into their creation. But we should try to keep in mind at all times that that is a cheat, that ultimately we want 3D (or more: incuding dimensions of range of actions and reactions would be nice too for example) models of everything so that we can construct new 2D images on-the-fly depicting things from any angle of view, and de-construct 2D images into what are they an image of and from what angle so instead of trillions upon trillions of 2D images covering every possible angle and situation we can compress it down to it is these things situated thus and so, as seen from this angle under this type of lighting.

There is still massive scope for artists, and a lot of their work can be made much easier and more efficient. Instead of having to spend all day drawing or painting one frame at a time of a cartoon they will be able to simply describe what it is that the cartoon is to depict and have 2D-view frames of those things and/or characters performing those activities at thus and such a frame-rate.

I do understand the concerns about artistic creativity but please try to also understand that a lot of artists do a lot of drudge-work / gruntwork that seems to them horribly un-creative, full time jobs creating "creative" (visuals etc), work that does not seem "creative" at all to them. Sometimes they even complain that such work dulls their creativity. (Citation needed?)

Often some lead artist or director or game-designer for example dictates exactly how everything is to look, the lead artist even sketches, maybe even fully fleshes out, one or more samples so the drudge-work guys see what style/mood/feel/theme they are to imitate, and the bulk of the "artists" then get to spend day after day churning out all the different view angles of the objects, all the different lighting conditions the characters might be seen in and on and on like that, total drudgery.

Just recently I saw a tool to help artists with that drudge-work, it let you automatically generate pretty good "under different lighting conditions" tiles for a 2D platform-type game from just a few renders, instead of having to manually render all the combinations / permutations. It was amazing, give it a flat 2D image and a few other 2D things and presto it generates for you a whole range of "it looks textured aka not 2D" versions for different lighting-situations. Amazing.

Too much of what artists do (in 9-5 jobs, for example) is very far from creative in their own eyes, and having artists do it is very expensive. So if we can make a tool that will illustrate a novel or plot or in-game situation without having to force artists to spend endless hours doing drudge-work that would be awesome.

It would still leave tons of room for creative art though. Just because your "make a movie of any novel any time you like" software comes with a bunch of off the shelf models of objects-found-in-novels with which to illustrate novels in no way means that an arist who makes a different set of objects the same software can use will not be able to find buyers; quite likely many people will be willing to buy object-sets that they find more pleasing to their eyes than any one set of objects already out there.

Look at Second Life, in Second Life you can edit your avatar, but people still hire artists to manually and painstakingly make a whole new different avatar or skin depicting the player.

So I think this kind of automation might even increase the market for custom hand-made artwork, since once anyone can have a model representing them or their house or whatever just by telling the computer various instructions like "give me bigger ears... darker skin... quiver over my left shoulder... gold ring on my left ring-finger..." etc, there will probably be people who will still want hand-crafted ones if even just to be able to say "ha ha my avatar is better than yours because good luck describing mine and having the default avatar-building software duplicate it without outright copying the hand-crafted skin that I am wearing".

But y'see for free open source we wouldn't want them to be wearing a hand-crafted skin that isn't free open source, because we want to be able to depict their character freely on other servers, take a copy home and modify it as we wish and so on and so on.

The big thing I suspect is the thinking in terms of composing from components. The actual skin and the actual frame over which to put the skin is better than just a bunch of 2D images of the avatar as seen from various angles.

So we should try to have models of all the things shown in a photograph in preference to the photograph itself, the models and skins for the creatures instead of just single views of creatures as seen from various angles and so on.

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 03:42:29 AM
 #2882

Testing 0.8.5 devcoin windows client (https://github.com/sidhujag/devcoin/tree/master/dist/Windows32)

Today Sidhujag has updated the devcoin windows client from 1.0.0 to 1.0.1 (Devcoin-qt_V1.0.1.zip).
He has added dvcstable06/dvcstable07 to dns seed nodes.
Strangely you must choose the RAW button if you want download the zip file  Embarrassed
Extract the zip file in any folder and execute it.
After launch go to Help then debug window for viewing block chain counting  Smiley
Everything is perfectly running on Windows 8.
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December 23, 2013, 04:11:19 AM
 #2883

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

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Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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December 23, 2013, 04:47:06 AM
 #2884

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

I just ran the new 0.8.5 version and it's awesome! I love this so much more than the other one; and it takes about a second from running it before it's updating the blockchain (the old one takes 3-5 minutes to start). Huge +1 from me!


 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




















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December 23, 2013, 04:51:44 AM
 #2885

I'm kind of confused by why this project would exclude a musical equivalent of Devtome. The equivalent of what you're describing for writing would be an AI that can output readable and uniquely stylistic prose, but that's not what Devtome asks for. It relies on human generated content and the ability to share and remix that content. How are people going to crawl into my closed source brain to see how I think of topics, conceptualize storylines, and string sentences together? Would there be a category that said, "I want a low-sci-fi voice tagged first-person and dark humor vs an academic voice tagged archaic english lexicon?" (Definitely an interesting concept that I wouldn't have thought of without this discussion). It seems more practical to put the writing up, and also put explain the writing process if there's enough interest for it.

Well at the very least, remember that in a wiki anyone can edit anything.

Devtome articles can be spelling-corrected, grammar-corrected and so on by anyone.

So at the very least the same should be the case with a devtome-equivalent for music or images or movies or 3D models or whatever.

So for example if someone posts an item of pixel-art purporting to be an image of a certain object as seen under a certain light, and they maybe didn't get quite the right hue or shade or tint or whatever on a certain pixel, someone else, maybe someone who has the actual model and the actual light-source the image supposedly depicts, could correct that pixel.

The scope for auto-generated "spins" and "spam" and "drivel" seems to me potentially massively higher in imagery and soundtracks because it is so very easy to generate trillions upon trillions of images, as compared to generating trillions upon trillions of text articles that are grammatically correct and actually seem to have something to convey.

(For sound for example one could set oodles of noisemaking models moving around making noises, maybe in reaction to each other, or you could run Battle for Wesnoth with sound and record the soudns of a massive battle, and by varying which units you deploy you'd get different soundtracks, so you could make a track of elves versus goblins, another goblins versus loyalists, and so on and so on and so on.)

Though admittedly maybe I just have not been following the development of constructive grammars, article spinners and suchlike spammer-tools closely enough lately. Is it still the case that when you generate trillions of articles using a constructive grammar the resulting articles seem to somehow lack internal sense and consistency and such?

For imagery one could fairly easily zoom cameras around OpenSimulator environments, having scripted objects walking around, random placement of trees and shrubs and buildings and so on and so on and generate insanely huge numbers of images, and each would have an internal sense and consistency because each is simply one possible angle of view of one possible configuration of three dimensional models.

I think the CC BY-SA license and opensource are highly compatible concepts, but they're not strictly the same thing. There might be a demand for open-source voice synthesizers and that is a very different project than human generated content that is not locked away by copyright. Both are valid, and the degree of their implementation will depend on the demand.

Well we already have, in the software development side of things, a distinction between "any old crap you choose to come up with" and "stuff we actually need".

So maybe we could do the same with other media?

Actually it is already maybe not only in programming, but in "being a developer of free open source stuff" in general.

In general you have to be a person who works at least ten hours per week on free open source stuff in order to qualify as a developer to get onto the receivers list.

(That is, in order to get one "share".)

I am not at all convinced that it takes forty hours to write 1000 words for Devtome, which is why Devtome author pay seems out of scale with everything else.

But, also in general, if what it is that you work on in the way of free open source stuff happens to be something we really need, such as bitcoin, or Open Transactions, then you only have to be a person who spends at least ten hours per month working on such stuff.

So I would imagine that at a bare minimum random images or sounds or music that someone feels like making should pay no more than 1/4 as much as images and music that are specifically required.

For example if it is decided that the devtome site or the devcoin site or whatever needs a soundtrack, maybe because websites without sound earn less money, attract less visitors and so on, then presumably making such soundtracks ought to pay at least 4 times as much as just submitting random tracks just to get your pay per byte or pay per run-length minute or whatever a devtome-like site for music would use as a metric in calculating pay.

If it does become necessary to have a soundtrack for Devtome, then maybe it would turn out to make sense to have a distinct separate soundtrack for each article, based on the contents of the article and maybe also carrying on the general musical theme that relates all the tracks of all the articles together so on hearing one you can guess it is probably the soundtrack of a Devtome article and maybe - maybe even "hopefully" - also what category of article it is the soundtrack for...

Battle for Wesnoth needs soundtracks for scenarios, and maybe also grouped soundtracks, so that a campaign can carry a theme throughout a whole bunch of scenarios with the track reflecting the mood of the individual scenario as well as the overall theme all the tracks of all the scenarios in the campaign have in common that relates them all together. If Battle for Wesnoth becomes a mission-critical component of the overall devcoin vision / roadmap, then presumably making soundtracks for those campaigns and scenarios that are needed for Devcoin's purposes ought, again, pay four times as much as just random stuff that was not designed specifically to fill a particular need that the Devcoin project has.

I do think that Devtome author pay is probably way out of scale with everything else, and I still think that should be corrected.

In fact it seems to me that ideally we should at some point no longer need to pay authors by the word, because, hopefully, we will eventually be able to do authors the same way we do any other developers of free open source software, which is to say, if we find a good author who habitually as a lifestyle spends ten hours per week creating free open source stuff they should be able to get onto the receivers list as a developer of free open source stuff.

Notice that they get the same one share regardless of whether they only spend the absolute minimum - ten hours per week - working on such stuff or they do such stuff 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week or whatever.

The idea was we are looking for those people who already naturally as a lifestyle contribute their time freely to free open source development.

We seem to have gotten sidetracked from that, with Devtome suddenly we started trying to bribe people to develop free open source writings or to release their existing writings as free open source, and in fact I do not even recall our having even tried to go out and find authors who already have been freely contributing at least ten hours of writing per week to free open source projects...

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 05:00:52 AM
 #2886

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

I don't know the windows build or release process, but as linux, bitcoin 0.8.6 has intergrate automake system, which is a great step up for building system. if not too hard, could we just update it 0.8.6?

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December 23, 2013, 05:06:03 AM
 #2887


In a way, kind of.

First off, an illustrator of some kind maybe, that can, given a novel, try to illustrate it.

That way eventually maybe instead of spending millions of devcoins hiring human actors to act out a plot, each person will be free to let their own computer illustrate/animate it for them using their own preferences as to what goblins look like, how a dark and storm night looks, whether a dark and stormy night seems to them to be better illustrated with a musical score or just storm sound-effects or both, and so on and so on.

Right now when we get an animated illustration of a famous novel or book (e.g. the Bible, or a Dickens novel, or Lord of the Rings etc) we get just a particular artists' or director's or film production crew's interpretation of the novel or book as cast in moving images or enacted as one particlar play or screenplay more or less "true to the original".

There is massive need for the ability to automatically illustrate things; nowadays millions of devcoins worth of wealth goes into making just one visual representation of what happens to happen in a game someone plays, and this acts as a massive "moat" or barrier standing in the way of game development.

The plot and mechanics of a play or game or event or performance are in many cases the important part. People still read novels even though movies have been made of them. Partly this might even be due to the failure of many movie versions of a novel to faithfully represent the actual novel. They tend not to actually enact the novel graphically but in fact to chop up the plot, change it around even, alter the gender of some characters maybe, all kinds of changes. They seldom actually just directly display what the actual events described in the novel, in the order they are described, might actually look like.

There are lots of games out there that only use text to describe events and characters and settings and objects, and part of why is that that is the most basic and inexpensive way of representing the situations and events and settings. To create a graphical client that would illustrate such games would be hard, but it would save billions of cost compared to hiring a movie director and crew of actors to enact each and every possible permutation of states such a game could be in.

It is also hard to go in reverse: to have actual 3D models of which you only get to see a 2D view, and from what you see on the 2D screen figure out what objects are supposedly there, how much damage which weapon did to what and stuff like that.

It is two very different approaches, in one approach you have a state of affairs and it can be depicted in various ways, in text or with various artists' graphical impressions or with various attempts at 3D clients that attempt to put together some kind of illustration that accurately and concisely and conveniently represents to players what the actual state of affairs happens to be. In another approach you just get to see images of what some artist thought such a state of affairs might look like, which can make it very hard to actually compute exactly what state of affairs it is that the artist is trying to convey.

Ultimately yes it would be nice to have a narrator program that can look at the actions of 3D models and deduce what they are doing what is happening what state of affairs they are depicting and thus be able to describe in words what is visible and what it means in terms of a state of affairs.

But when we post to the English-language devtome typically most of the words we use are available in dictionaries, those that are not are often true nouns; the point is all those words are free open source words, not copyright photographs of words so that other people cannot use the same words in their compositions; and furthermore the words are font-independent.  We don't have to buy a library of letter-sequences or a patented word-sequencer to use them.

I agree that right now it is hard to find a free open source model of each and every object depicted in arbitrary photographs or a free open source model of each and every instrument that a musical score calls for.

But we should bear that in mind at all times, so as to try to avoid using photographs featuring objects we lack free open source models of for example, instead trying to first get free open source photos (eventually actual models) of each of the objects that are included in the photo so that eventually we can compose the photo.

Devcoin is supposed to be about development, about developing things, free open source things.

So it should focus more on how to develop music or images than on merely trying to fill storage space with some tiny sample of all the possible images and music that can be constructed given the components from which music and images are developed.

Yes initially we need to "cheat", for example by having 2D images of goblins orcs motorcars ships shells sealing-wax or any other objects that the composer or designer of a scenario or situation or plotline or holonovel might want or need to incorporate into their creation. But we should try to keep in mind at all times that that is a cheat, that ultimately we want 3D (or more: incuding dimensions of range of actions and reactions would be nice too for example) models of everything so that we can construct new 2D images on-the-fly depicting things from any angle of view, and de-construct 2D images into what are they an image of and from what angle so instead of trillions upon trillions of 2D images covering every possible angle and situation we can compress it down to it is these things situated thus and so, as seen from this angle under this type of lighting.

There is still massive scope for artists, and a lot of their work can be made much easier and more efficient. Instead of having to spend all day drawing or painting one frame at a time of a cartoon they will be able to simply describe what it is that the cartoon is to depict and have 2D-view frames of those things and/or characters performing those activities at thus and such a frame-rate.

I do understand the concerns about artistic creativity but please try to also understand that a lot of artists do a lot of drudge-work / gruntwork that seems to them horribly un-creative, full time jobs creating "creative" (visuals etc), work that does not seem "creative" at all to them. Sometimes they even complain that such work dulls their creativity. (Citation needed?)

Often some lead artist or director or game-designer for example dictates exactly how everything is to look, the lead artist even sketches, maybe even fully fleshes out, one or more samples so the drudge-work guys see what style/mood/feel/theme they are to imitate, and the bulk of the "artists" then get to spend day after day churning out all the different view angles of the objects, all the different lighting conditions the characters might be seen in and on and on like that, total drudgery.

Just recently I saw a tool to help artists with that drudge-work, it let you automatically generate pretty good "under different lighting conditions" tiles for a 2D platform-type game from just a few renders, instead of having to manually render all the combinations / permutations. It was amazing, give it a flat 2D image and a few other 2D things and presto it generates for you a whole range of "it looks textured aka not 2D" versions for different lighting-situations. Amazing.

Too much of what artists do (in 9-5 jobs, for example) is very far from creative in their own eyes, and having artists do it is very expensive. So if we can make a tool that will illustrate a novel or plot or in-game situation without having to force artists to spend endless hours doing drudge-work that would be awesome.

It would still leave tons of room for creative art though. Just because your "make a movie of any novel any time you like" software comes with a bunch of off the shelf models of objects-found-in-novels with which to illustrate novels in no way means that an arist who makes a different set of objects the same software can use will not be able to find buyers; quite likely many people will be willing to buy object-sets that they find more pleasing to their eyes than any one set of objects already out there.

Look at Second Life, in Second Life you can edit your avatar, but people still hire artists to manually and painstakingly make a whole new different avatar or skin depicting the player.

So I think this kind of automation might even increase the market for custom hand-made artwork, since once anyone can have a model representing them or their house or whatever just by telling the computer various instructions like "give me bigger ears... darker skin... quiver over my left shoulder... gold ring on my left ring-finger..." etc, there will probably be people who will still want hand-crafted ones if even just to be able to say "ha ha my avatar is better than yours because good luck describing mine and having the default avatar-building software duplicate it without outright copying the hand-crafted skin that I am wearing".

But y'see for free open source we wouldn't want them to be wearing a hand-crafted skin that isn't free open source, because we want to be able to depict their character freely on other servers, take a copy home and modify it as we wish and so on and so on.

The big thing I suspect is the thinking in terms of composing from components. The actual skin and the actual frame over which to put the skin is better than just a bunch of 2D images of the avatar as seen from various angles.

So we should try to have models of all the things shown in a photograph in preference to the photograph itself, the models and skins for the creatures instead of just single views of creatures as seen from various angles and so on.

-MarkM-


I understand.

But if creating unlimited worlds/stories/forms is simply a case of total parameterization of available source material, we would already have such software available.

Face it, 99% of all permutations will be useless, and the big question is "how will a computer figure out what the good nicelooking permutations are?"
For the computer every number looks the same.

Just because you think you have taste and can recognize a good set of parameters within one second... doesn't mean the computer can do the same in even extremely long timeframes.

Yes sir, please go on and program an algorithm that mimics the process of good taste or that can recognize beauty or uglyness. Because that's what your computer would have to be able to do too. Not just spit out permutations, but also filter out the crap.


I remember some years ago I did a simple yet effective program that was something like a face creator.
I drew 10 different noses, 10 different head forms, 10 different eyes, 10 different mouths, etc...

in the end I had about 20 different features, each with 10 possible states.

Then by letting the program choose one set of each feature randomly I could potentially create 10^20 different faces.
It was hilarious and funny, but after a while it became clear that although no two faces looked exactly the same... an uncanny similarity was embedded in all faces still.

What I want to say with this example is that although permutations lead you to believe that we have astronomical amounts of possibilities... most of those permutations will be useless.

Much like all possible chess moves are more then the sum of all atoms in the universe, still only a very very small subsection of this astronomical number are what we would call "interesting chess matches".


It's in the eye of the beholder. And the beholder IS human and not a machine.
For your plan to work you would need to already have a complete simulation of a human.
Then you could really go ahead and work thru your endless permutations with brute force,
and continuously check the reaction of the simulated human with every set.

...

PS time to go to bed, talk to you tommorrow.



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December 23, 2013, 05:08:37 AM
 #2888

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

I don't know the windows build or release process, but as linux, bitcoin 0.8.6 has intergrate automake system, which is a great step up for building system. if not too hard, could we just update it 0.8.6?

I want to fully testwith 0.8.5 first to make sure we didn't introduce any malfunction in the way it works. The code is totally different and we have to be confident that we can roll fwd from this point on. After testing is done I will work on 0.8.6 and look ahead to 0.9 upcoming. We still have to decide on the fee changes and/or implications to inflation rate structure if we go there. This will cause a hard fork.

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December 23, 2013, 05:11:04 AM
 #2889

Please see the devcoin source code update thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310280.0

I made version 1.0.2 with updated icons and graphics... looks better now.

Run with devcoin-qt.exe -testnet to see the testnet startup.

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December 23, 2013, 05:16:12 AM
 #2890

On the topic of Battle for Wesnoth, all the campaigns mentioned in Devtome date back to a version of the Battle for Wesnoth software that is now a few versions out of date.

Accordingly all those campaigns need running through the "lint for campaigns" syntax-checker that automatically updates what can be updated automatically, then all the things that tool points out that it cannot automatically correct will need to be manually corrected.

In addition, none or almost none of the scenarios in those campaigns have soundtracks. At best they maybe just run Wesnoth's default playlist or maybe might have chosen one from Wesnoth's very limited repertoire of soundtracks, or maybe even just let the program pick randomly from its default playlist.

Some of those campaigns are behind the times more than merely in the sense of being coded for out of date versions of Wesnoth but also in terms of not keeping abreast of what has actually being going on around them.

For example, so far none of those scenarios mentions Devtome, whether or not any of the characters in them have even heard of Devtome is not specified, which of those characters also writes Devtome articles in addition to creating holobarracks programs (such as those very Battle for Wesnoth campaigns themselves, all of which are attributed to at least one of the characters found in at least one of those campaigns) and so on.

Currently the only way players of those campaigns would be led to discover Devtome is by following the clues that lead to such things as the CrossCiv server (or ... oops, I was going to write MUDgaard but then it occurred to me that none of those campaigns mention MUDgaard either, they are so out of date! ...) and meeting therein some player who thinks to mention Devtome to them.

So it would be nice if someone brought the campaigns up to date with the latest version of Battle for Wesnoth, whereupon adding references to Devtome and MUDgaard might make more sense (since being use-able with the current version should result in more users than if users have to install an old version of Battle for Wesnoth in order to play those campaigns) than it would right now.

(For those who are not aware of the fact, maybe it is worth mentioning that this (Devcoin, Devtome etc) whole project, like the GNU project that in the campaigns is refered to by terms along the lines of "Grand Nexus Uberplot", and Battle for Wesnoth itself that is characterised as a form of holodeck-programmer training-tool for deployment on planets on which the deployment of actual holodecks is deprecated, is part of the game...)

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December 23, 2013, 05:25:14 AM
 #2891

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

I don't know the windows build or release process, but as linux, bitcoin 0.8.6 has intergrate automake system, which is a great step up for building system. if not too hard, could we just update it 0.8.6?

I want to fully testwith 0.8.5 first to make sure we didn't introduce any malfunction in the way it works. The code is totally different and we have to be confident that we can roll fwd from this point on. After testing is done I will work on 0.8.6 and look ahead to 0.9 upcoming. We still have to decide on the fee changes and/or implications to inflation rate structure if we go there. This will cause a hard fork.

inflation? it will big hard fork and will change many thing... I don't know we have this discussed before...

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December 23, 2013, 05:46:11 AM
 #2892

Y not create more bounties the new wallet needs testing? Any immediate work? The new pr work im doing is going to be good shit I suggest it be worth more than 12 shares its going
to wider audience and I will adhere to higher standards ( up to quality admins to judge before release)

I would like to propose a bounty for qt images and new icons.  8 shares for the images and icons used in the qt, 4 shares for the second best set of icons.

Any objections, or should anything be changed??

I went ahead and did this...uploading and updating the update thread soon. v1.0.2 will have the new images/icons... testnet and normal included aswell as images to be used in the installer (nsis banner and sidebar image)

Also the installer, there is builtin support in the source code repo for an NSIS installer, and I think it may be tied to the build release system, which would automate the installer with correct version information. This is the preferred method to create an installer instead of manually. I propose we use this installer. I will try to make an install with the new client to show you guys.

I don't know the windows build or release process, but as linux, bitcoin 0.8.6 has intergrate automake system, which is a great step up for building system. if not too hard, could we just update it 0.8.6?

I want to fully testwith 0.8.5 first to make sure we didn't introduce any malfunction in the way it works. The code is totally different and we have to be confident that we can roll fwd from this point on. After testing is done I will work on 0.8.6 and look ahead to 0.9 upcoming. We still have to decide on the fee changes and/or implications to inflation rate structure if we go there. This will cause a hard fork.

inflation? it will big hard fork and will change many thing... I don't know we have this discussed before...

I just brought it up because the fees are still based on 1000x higher fees with bitcoin based on the 50 coin block reward but its changed now.. so the fees may need to double to match bitcoins now and when I first joined the project I thought the goal was to be 1000x inflationary than bitcoin but that relation breaks when bitcoin reward halves so I proposed we halve with it until say a min of like 1000 coins per
block when bitcoin is at 1... this will keepthe ratio up ttill this point and then split off. I just threw it out there as my idea of a good idea may not be the right choice and unthinkingbit makes the final decision.. He knows Ive been about it for a while now.

So my question is if we dicussing fees do we discuss inflation too? or meh.

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December 23, 2013, 05:59:51 AM
 #2893

We need to keep on minting coins forever without halving the minting, because we need to keep sending 90% of the coins to the people/projects (addresses) that are listed in the receiver files.

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 06:09:02 AM
 #2894


The scope for auto-generated "spins" and "spam" and "drivel" seems to me potentially massively higher in imagery and soundtracks because it is so very easy to generate trillions upon trillions of images, as compared to generating trillions upon trillions of text articles that are grammatically correct and actually seem to have something to convey.

(For sound for example one could set oodles of noisemaking models moving around making noises, maybe in reaction to each other, or you could run Battle for Wesnoth with sound and record the soudns of a massive battle, and by varying which units you deploy you'd get different soundtracks, so you could make a track of elves versus goblins, another goblins versus loyalists, and so on and so on and so on.)


I was wondering about this for photography. Like if someone posted ten pictures of different angles of their lamp... (in such a way that was useful or artistic to no one). I think it would require a pretty big dedicated staff to review submissions, or maybe an application process for contributors who can prove they produce real content, so not practical right now.

Though admittedly maybe I just have not been following the development of constructive grammars, article spinners and suchlike spammer-tools closely enough lately. Is it still the case that when you generate trillions of articles using a constructive grammar the resulting articles seem to somehow lack internal sense and consistency and such?
Far as I know, yes.

I think the CC BY-SA license and opensource are highly compatible concepts, but they're not strictly the same thing. There might be a demand for open-source voice synthesizers and that is a very different project than human generated content that is not locked away by copyright. Both are valid, and the degree of their implementation will depend on the demand.

Well we already have, in the software development side of things, a distinction between "any old crap you choose to come up with" and "stuff we actually need".

So maybe we could do the same with other media?

[/quote]

That's the tricky part with 'no notability requirements.' Where's the line drawn for 'what we need' and how is it determined? For instance, a lot of really good quality storytelling in various media ISN'T popular (indie films, live storytellings, self-published books), and a lot of crap (helloooo many hollywood movies) IS really popular, so popularity (for instance) is not necessarily a reliable criteria.

Actually it is already maybe not only in programming, but in "being a developer of free open source stuff" in general.

In general you have to be a person who works at least ten hours per week on free open source stuff in order to qualify as a developer to get onto the receivers list.

(That is, in order to get one "share".)


Is it one share per ten hours?


In fact it seems to me that ideally we should at some point no longer need to pay authors by the word, because, hopefully, we will eventually be able to do authors the same way we do any other developers of free open source software, which is to say, if we find a good author who habitually as a lifestyle spends ten hours per week creating free open source stuff they should be able to get onto the receivers list as a developer of free open source stuff.

Notice that they get the same one share regardless of whether they only spend the absolute minimum - ten hours per week - working on such stuff or they do such stuff 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week or whatever.

The idea was we are looking for those people who already naturally as a lifestyle contribute their time freely to free open source development.

This intrigues me, because ideally I think you're right that the audience should be people who 'naturally as a lifestyle contribute their time freely to free open source development.' Even within that model there could be room for one-time or not-that-often contributors.

I've got 200k + word I could *conceivably* post on Devtome, but I won't, because it's not polished, or not finished. I'll post it when it's ready. I care about creating quality writing. I'm really passionate about gift economies and openness, so in spirit I really liked free culture licenses, but I clung to the non-commercial clause out of fear of abuse. Investigating Devtome and looking at Sita Sings the Blues http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ convinced me to put my licensing in line with my beliefs. So I spend 40 + hours a week writing that will now all be published under CC BY-SA. I think all those elements make it natural for me to gravitate toward Devtome.

I think a ton of other writers would, too, once they got over their hangups about copyright (which is rampant in the writer world, for a number of reasons, some of which are they they *care* about and *value* what they are producing, but also hubris around 'originality'), and were able to see that they can meet their material needs with Devcoin. Devtome has attracted a few of those, but also a lot of people who are fine with putting out 'open source' material because they *don't* care about what they're producing.

The Devtome model as it stands now isn't perfect, but it's a place to start.

How would you propose shifting it to paying ongoing writing 'developers'? I think you'd need to wait to do it until you had a stable of committed, high quality authors.
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December 23, 2013, 06:23:59 AM
 #2895

We need to keep on minting coins forever without halving the minting, because we need to keep sending 90% of the coins to the people/projects (addresses) that are listed in the receiver files.

-MarkM-


Nothing would change except the scarcity of the coin going up... all reciever stuff would remain the same as blocks halve I said that we would stop halving at a point in the future like say 1000 coins per block.

It just means we maintain the ratio of 1000x btc as long as possible to draw a bigger community until a point where it would be self sustaining (when ratio widens and inflation starts playing a key role in price stability) As of now i see supply saturation taking years based on the way shares were given to devtome and this would essentially speed it up aswell as staying true to the 1000:1 goal.. useful marketing trick too (the whole mBTC issue)

Actually we would be much like quark then which has 250 million coin base beforr reward drops now while maintaining a steady 0.5% inflation pa.. this is the way the new wave of succesful coins are doing it. I think devcoin has added benefit of useful generation leveraging mining thru merged mining.. We really can put all these knockoff coins to dust if we did something like this.

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December 23, 2013, 06:42:39 AM
 #2896

Is it one share per ten hours?


In fact it seems to me that ideally we should at some point no longer need to pay authors by the word, because, hopefully, we will eventually be able to do authors the same way we do any other developers of free open source software, which is to say, if we find a good author who habitually as a lifestyle spends ten hours per week creating free open source stuff they should be able to get onto the receivers list as a developer of free open source stuff.

Notice that they get the same one share regardless of whether they only spend the absolute minimum - ten hours per week - working on such stuff or they do such stuff 40 hours a week or 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week or whatever.

The idea was we are looking for those people who already naturally as a lifestyle contribute their time freely to free open source development.

Did you read the above paragraph of mine that you quoted?

As it answers the question you posted above it. Smiley

This intrigues me, because ideally I think you're right that the audience should be people who 'naturally as a lifestyle contribute their time freely to free open source development.' Even within that model there could be room for one-time or not-that-often contributors.

I've got 200k + word I could *conceivably* post on Devtome, but I won't, because it's not polished, or not finished. I'll post it when it's ready. I care about creating quality writing. I'm really passionate about gift economies and openness, so in spirit I really liked free culture licenses, but I clung to the non-commercial clause out of fear of abuse. Investigating Devtome and looking at Sita Sings the Blues http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ convinced me to put my licensing in line with my beliefs. So I spend 40 + hours a week writing that will now all be published under CC BY-SA. I think all those elements make it natural for me to gravitate toward Devtome.

I think a ton of other writers would, too, once they got over their hangups about copyright (which is rampant in the writer world, for a number of reasons, some of which are they they *care* about and *value* what they are producing, but also hubris around 'originality'), and were able to see that they can meet their material needs with Devcoin. Devtome has attracted a few of those, but also a lot of people who are fine with putting out 'open source' material because they *don't* care about what they're producing.

The Devtome model as it stands now isn't perfect, but it's a place to start.

How would you propose shifting it to paying ongoing writing 'developers'? I think you'd need to wait to do it until you had a stable of committed, high quality authors.

40+ hours per week is "at least 10 hours per week" so should qualify.

The thing is though, why would you settle for only one share for all those hours instead of getting one share per 1000 words?

Well one reason, I suppose would be if you didn't want to post the material to Devtome.

But basically the crazy-high pay currently going to Devtome authors kind of discourages anyone from going for the lifestyle author of free open source software option, not to mention the vast number of shares that go to Devtome authors grossly dilutes the actual value that a lifestyle author's lonely single share would actually be worth on the exchanges.

So basically Devtome is maybe kind of shooting itself in the foot too not just shooting down all other categories.

Although to fully make use of lifestyle authors Devtome would have to be even more open than it currently is regarding "collated" articles, since a lifestyle creator of free open source content is not constrained to post that content to Devtome or any other specific repository. So if a lifestyle author of free open source writing happened for example to post all their free open source writing to their blog instead of to Devtome, someone would have to collate it all - grab it all - onto Devtome in order for Devtome to directly benefit from it all. But since we are talking free open source, presumably grabbing all of it from their blog and pasting it to Devtome (with attribution) would presumably be okay as far as their license is concerned. It is only Devtome itself that currently would seem to require who-ever grabs it and pastes it to hack it up instead of simply pasting it.

We could though maybe make a "grabbed wholesale" category that pays even less than the "collated" category, like maybe a share per 10,000 articles or a share per 1000 articles or somesuch, so one person with one script could suck into Devtome all the new blog posts made by all the lifestyle free open source blog authors and stuff like that and get enough pay from that to pay them for the computer resources it'd take for them to have their 'cron' daemon automatically go grab the articles and paste them to Devtome...

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 07:20:12 AM
 #2897

I only joined Devtome a couple of days ago but already have articles up on the Devtome page. Do the articles have to be added to the link tree of the topics section by admin before they will be counted by the script?
No the script only 'reads' your page, but it's very helpful to include a category at the base of your articles and then add them to 'Most Recent'. It can take a while between doing that and then adding to the link tree. With hits and popularity now also a (smaller) factor in earnings, doing that also increases your earnings potential.

I guess that I must be doing something wrong then. I have entered a couple of articles and have properly filled out the receipt section on Devtome.com  but when I check the daily account31.csv on http://d.evco.in/charity/ I don't see my user name in the Devtome earning section. If you could provide any insight into what I am doing wrong. It would be most helpful.


Thanks

Bittzy78

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December 23, 2013, 07:33:16 AM
 #2898

Testing 0.8.5 devcoin windows client (https://github.com/sidhujag/devcoin/tree/master/dist/Windows32)

Today Sidhujag has updated the devcoin windows client from 1.0.0 to 1.0.1 (Devcoin-qt_V1.0.1.zip).
He has added dvcstable06/dvcstable07 to dns seed nodes.
Strangely you must choose the RAW button if you want download the zip file  Embarrassed
Extract the zip file in any folder and execute it.
After launch go to Help then debug window for viewing block chain counting  Smiley
Everything is perfectly running on Windows 8.

Cyke64, you are the first person to have written a post about installing Sidhujag's client, so you get 4 shares. Please send me a devcoin address from your computer and I'll add you to the bounty list. The next client testing bounty is 3 shares.

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December 23, 2013, 07:41:51 AM
 #2899

Testing 0.8.5 devcoin windows client (https://github.com/sidhujag/devcoin/tree/master/dist/Windows32)

Today Sidhujag has updated the devcoin windows client from 1.0.0 to 1.0.1 (Devcoin-qt_V1.0.1.zip).
He has added dvcstable06/dvcstable07 to dns seed nodes.
Strangely you must choose the RAW button if you want download the zip file  Embarrassed
Extract the zip file in any folder and execute it.
After launch go to Help then debug window for viewing block chain counting  Smiley
Everything is perfectly running on Windows 8.

Cyke64, you are the first person to have written a post about installing Sidhujag's client, so you get 4 shares. Please send me a devcoin address from your computer and I'll add you to the bounty list. The next client testing bounty is 3 shares.


I installed that client on my computer yesterday and was impressed with how much it looked just like a Bitcoin/Litecoin wallet. I think it stopped downloading the block chain a couple of times but I could have just been a little impatient. I closed it and then opened it back up again and it started right where it left off. I checked on it a an hour before I went to work and did a test send and receive of Devcoins. I didn't notice any hitches sending or receiving the coins. I plan on playing with  it some more today after I get off work in the morning.

I have to say the absolute #1 plus about this new wallet is being able to backup your data. I have an older computer and that dang thing might just stop working one of these days.  Smiley

Overall, I was very impressed with it.

(I am sorry this review wasn't more technical but I am kinda low tech)

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December 23, 2013, 07:46:27 AM
 #2900

I want Giftculturewriting to be an admin, and he chose to help categorize articles, so he do that with Weisoq and Wiser.

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