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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 760954 times)
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georgem
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December 24, 2013, 03:57:35 PM
 #2961


It means, rather, that the artist needs to authorise the conversion of his art into a free open source form/format.


The result of his art (the final picture, music piece, 3d model)

or the whole creation process?


Please define what you mean with "his art".

Art is also a state of mind.


Would you accept someone creating a video using proprietary software like flash, but converting the final product into a free video format using FFmpeg.?

Remember that we kind of need to bootstrap the whole process to some extent, and hobble along hobbled by various problems such as needing the free open source tools with which to develop the free open source tools, and needing artists and musicians and so on to use the free open source tools in order to create demand/market for improvement of the free open source tools and so on.

For example some people say free open source tools are not good enough so real artists and musicians do not use them.

I do not think rewarding artists and musicians for not using the free open source tools seems a likely way of encouraging the improvement of such tools.

Partly because free open source does not tend to proceed along a trajectory of "if you build it, then they will come".

Rather the opposite seems more normally / usually the case: unless they come, there is no point building it.

That is why some people claim that much of free open source software seems to be written for the software's developer rather than for masses of people who never even bothered to get involved in the development of the stuff.

Basically the programmers had already come, so what they - the people who did already come - wanted got built.

So if we reward artists and musicians for using free open source tools, and those tools could be improved / could be better, maybe the fact that they need to use those tools in order to get those rewards might cause those artists and musicians to apply more effort and finances and lobbying and so on toward getting those tools improved instead of just running off with some non free open source tool to go do some non free open source project or something.

Presumably the tools work just fine for the programmers who wrote them; maybe it takes a certain amount of knowledge or skill to even perceive whatever problems artists and musicians have with such tools.

-MarkM-

EDIT: Notice that for authors, we reward authors for using a free open source wiki program/site, not, for example, for uploading microsoft word document files...


Isn't this like "putting the cart before the horse"?

I agree that we should create incentives for artists to use (and create) free open source tools. I wholeheartedly support that.

But they don't exist yet. (lightyears away from the extent we would wish to see)

So if we were to wait until those tools are created, meanwhile we will not have any artist develop for devcoin.

Shouldn't we start with more relaxed requirements, and give bonuses for musicians based on how much % open source they used in their creation process?

I would suggest that we need some sort of openness from the artist.
He should absolutely lay open what tools he used.

That would than give us a way to judge and derive a percentage point of how open source his process is.

There should be different criteria that add shares to the bounty an artist recieves.

1) final product is free and in open source format (33%)
2) tools he used are open source (33%)
3) he explains the steps he made, enlightening us about the creation process (33%)


Something like that would be needed as to also attract "secretive" artists who use open source tools.
Or "secretive" artists who don't use open source tools, but like to share their music for free.
or an other combination: an artist who likes to share his music for free, yet create it with proprietary tools, but be absolutely open about his creation process, in effect be like a teacher about it.
etc... there are 8 possibilities for point 1, 2 and 3 to be combined:

0.0.0 (go away, we don't like your corporate ass around here.)
1.0.0 (free stuff to download)
0.2.0 (presenting open source tools)
0.0.3 (teaching about how to use proprietary artist tools)
1.2.0 (artist creates art with open source tools and final product is in downloadable open source format, but artist doesn't explain what's behind his music process)
1.0.3 (artist creates free music with proprietary tools and explains like a teacher his creation process)
0.2.3 (artist explains how to create music with open source tools, but doesn't provide any art example, only theory) You like that mark, hm??  Grin
1.2.3 (a dream come true, an artist creates free stuff with open source tools and is open about his whole creation process) .... jesus returned anyone?

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December 24, 2013, 04:06:36 PM
 #2962

Programming is about developing, creating algorithms is about developing.

But not art. (certainly not the whole process of it)

We are devcoin - development coin.

So I do think it should be mostly about the development.

Maybe lets go back to the basic five categories of art, my father is an artist and was part of organising an art expo in Harlow, Essex when I was a kid. The artists designed the logo to have five squares, representing "the" five arts. Presumably at least five types of artist, representing those five arts, were all in agreement that five is how many arts there were. Or hey maybe they really just meant that was how many of "the" arts the expo would be about and would present and represent.

Five different ways of arranging five squares were chosen also so each art could have a distinct logo of its own but all of them being compositions of those five simple grey squares on a white background.

The five types were, I think, something like flat static art (painting/drawing), static three-dimensional art (sculpture), mobile art (dance/drama), sonic art (music/sound), and linguistic art (literature, poetry, presumably the scripts of plays/dramas...)

There is some overlap/crossover already so far, because choreographers might have some notation system (language, linguistic system) they can use to script dances, playwrights definitely have a notation system they use to script plays/dramas, heck even musicians have notation systems they can use to script music.

But we can also see some things that do need development in order to enable these arts. For example for flat art some kind of flat media would likely often be useful, so free open source flat media such as sketch programs and paint programs and designs for paintbrushes and formulae for paints and processes for creating paints and processes for production of flat medias such as canvas and paper and lithography-stones and so on and so on are needed.

Regardless of what emotional experiences your example dude went through before making his song, chances are that someone had developed a musical scale that appealed to him and that he chose to use rather than some other musical scale, and various instruments had been developed out of which he chose an instrument with which to express or perform or play his song and so on.

In case you missed my earlier edit on the end of my earlier post, please notice that devtome rewards people for using a free open source wiki, not, for example, for uploading a microsoft word document...

-MarkM-

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December 24, 2013, 04:14:11 PM
 #2963

please reread my last post, I added what kind of combinations could exist, to create more incentives for different kind of artists.

I think this would give more possibilites for an artist to participate, and don't measure an artists worth as if he were a code developper

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December 24, 2013, 04:15:08 PM
 #2964

BTER unfortunately is broken as far as supporting eight digits of decimals goes.

It has weird things happen like not being able to use all the decimals when placing an order on the website, and displaying with different numbers of decimals on different parts/tables of a page, yet you see offers appear on the orderbooks that have more decimals than you can type in on the page.

It looks like maybe their API si allowing bots to make use of all the decimals while the webpages are inconsistent about how many decimals there are.

The only reason I ever used BTER was BBQcoins, which I have not been able to work with properly over there because of this weird glitch that forces ten satoshi jumps between prices for humans using the website, leaving huge gaps therefore between prices, while bots or the system's own internal manipulations or something gets to jump in-between all your prices by making use of those decimals that you the human are not permitted/enabled to use.

In fact when I started using BTER the extra digits of decimals that the bots or the internal manipulators or who-ever or what-ever were using were not even visible in the order-book, so you'd find you could not buy an offer at its displayed price because it was not displaying the full price, the last one or more decimals were concealed.

Basically the script they are using, which I believe is a commercial script that they sell to other sites or that they along with other sites buy from someone, is broken as far as dealing with bitcoin-based cryptocurrencies go; it was maybe hacked up from some code originally intended for fiat forex (in which one usually uses five decimals and trades blocks of ten thousand units of a currency so that the 10000 units in play at a time makes up for the five decimals, balancing them out by multiplying by 10,000).

Still, it was better to deal with BBQ over at BTER despite the broken scripts than to contemplate the ghastly idea of having Vircurex, which seemed to have been designed for eight decimals all along, get flooded with garbage crapcoins. I certainly do not recommend anyone use any of the scam-central exchanges that specialise in enabling all the new scamcoins that keep coming out, I merely happened to use it because I dabbled in BBQcoin, which was kind of an early proof of how scammy all those new scrypt coins are.

(Think of BBQ as an experiment to see whether having more scrypt coins would be viable; what it seemed to demonstrate was that in fact having another scrypt coin was not viable, yet nonetheless despite the demonstrated lack of viability of an increased number of such coins, more and more such coins keep coming out...)

-MarkM-


so they just open the dvc/cny trading pair other than dvc/btc pair....

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December 24, 2013, 04:20:53 PM
 #2965

please notice that devtome rewards people for using a free open source wiki, not, for example, for uploading a microsoft word document...

-MarkM-


Yes, I understand that and absolutely approve of it.

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December 24, 2013, 04:21:56 PM
 #2966

so they just open the dvc/cny trading pair other than dvc/btc pair....

I don't quite follow your reasoning.

Are you saying that you do have a full eight decimals if you use the dvc/cny pair instead of the dvc/btc pair?

In the sense that they are fixing a page at a time and that particular page has so far already been fixed?

Or do you mean that the problem of decimals can be avoided by using currencies that do not have eight decimals anyway so that the lack of support for eight decimals does not matter?

(Implying presumably that the problem only occurs on the "what you buy it with" side not on the "what is being sold" side of pairs?)

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December 24, 2013, 04:25:26 PM
 #2967

There should be different criteria that add shares to the bounty an artist recieves.

1) final product is free and in open source format (33%)
2) tools he used are open source (33%)
3) he explains the steps he made, enlightening us about the creation process (33%)


Something like that would be needed as to also attract "secretive" artists who use open source tools.
Or "secretive" artists who don't use open source tools, but like to share their music for free.
or an other combination: an artist who likes to share his music for free, yet create it with proprietary tools, but be absolutely open about his creation process, in effect be like a teacher about it.
etc... there are 8 possibilities for point 1, 2 and 3 to be combined:

0.0.0 (go away, we don't like your corporate ass around here.)
1.0.0 (free stuff to download)
0.2.0 (presenting open source tools)
0.0.3 (teaching about how to use proprietary artist tools)
1.2.0 (artist creates art with open source tools and final product is in downloadable open source format, but artist doesn't explain what's behind his music process)
1.0.3 (artist creates free music with proprietary tools and explains like a teacher his creation process)
0.2.3 (artist explains how to create music with open source tools, but doesn't provide any art example, only theory) You like that mark, hm??  Grin
1.2.3 (a dream come true, an artist creates free stuff with open source tools and is open about his whole creation process) .... jesus returned anyone?

I will use those 8 ways of participating for http://devmusic.org and http://devsound.org  and create examples for all 8 styles (expect the first one of course, which is just an example of how NOT to participate at all)

The 8 ways of participating, I like the sound of that... shaolin grandmaster approves of that.

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December 24, 2013, 04:27:41 PM
 #2968

please reread my last post, I added what kind of combinations could exist, to create more incentives for different kind of artists.

I think this would give more possibilites for an artist to participate, and don't measure an artists worth as if he were a code developper

Okay I will go back and read again.

But meanwhile, I so far still do tend to think that we should be about art development, specifically about free open source art development, rather than about art per se. Art per se includes non free non open source art, and its development is often non free non open source development.

We should in my current opinion as developed (hee hee) so far be about the free open source development of free open source art.

There are plenty of places where people can submit and maybe even be rewarded for non free non open source art development and even the actual pieces of art developed by such processes/means.

-MarkM-

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December 24, 2013, 04:33:37 PM
 #2969

There's no support for walletnotify? Where can i push a patch for it?






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December 24, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
 #2970

please reread my last post, I added what kind of combinations could exist, to create more incentives for different kind of artists.

I think this would give more possibilites for an artist to participate, and don't measure an artists worth as if he were a code developper

Okay I will go back and read again.

But meanwhile, I so far still do tend to think that we should be about art development, specifically about free open source art development, rather than about art per se. Art per se includes non free non open source art, and its development is often non free non open source development.

We should in my current opinion as developed (hee hee) so far be about the free open source development of free open source art.

There are plenty of places where people can submit and maybe even be rewarded for non free non open source art development and even the actual pieces of art developed by such processes/means.

-MarkM-


Since art is not a science as is not being "developped", we must use a different approach. See my 8 ways of participating

Ofcourse, with code and text you can be completely open source in every aspect.  (well, not necessarily in point 3 I make, or do devtome writers and developers explain their creation process? No they don't!  Cool)

That's great and I admire that.

But we must differentiate when it comes to art, to create incentives for participation, and not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

over time, participants of level 1 -7 will strive to become level 8. That's my goal.

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December 24, 2013, 04:42:11 PM
 #2971

The 8 ways of participating, I like the sound of that... shaolin grandmaster approves of that.

I am still cogitating / meditating upon your schema, but right off the bat it strikes me that a lot of the explanations parts of it seem like condidates for Devtome, by having the explanations in written form.

The written form could be a transcript of course if the artist did not write the explanation down but, rather, spoke it.

It could even be a screenplay / script if the artist did not speak it in words that alone convey the meaning but, rather, used gestures, actual performance of actions / demonstrations so that the initial capture of the material was by means of one or more videocameras / movie-cameras.

Thus even just an artist's explanation of what they consider to be art or how they go about producing and/or developing art could be cast into various artforms (videos, sound recordings, scripts, screenplays, transcripts, wiki articles...)

But this idea of explaining does seem good, because it is maybe more directly related to the actual development of art than maybe a bunch of instances of the products of such development and production might be.

-MarkM-

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December 24, 2013, 04:43:40 PM
 #2972


Okay I will go back and read again.

But meanwhile, I so far still do tend to think that we should be about art development, specifically about free open source art development, rather than about art per se. Art per se includes non free non open source art, and its development is often non free non open source development.

We should in my current opinion as developed (hee hee) so far be about the free open source development of free open source art.

There are plenty of places where people can submit and maybe even be rewarded for non free non open source art development and even the actual pieces of art developed by such processes/means.

-MarkM-


Doesn't allowing artists to earn DVC by giving away their work on Devtome/devmusic encourage the development of art?  That should be the main thing, rewarding developers (in this case, artists) with DVC who give away their work on Devtome.   

A song isn't a like a piece of software where there are going to be lots of people wanting to make a copy and make changes requiring a commented code.  Some genres such as solo guitar pieces might have people wanting to be able to play them, so extra DVC could be offered for score/tab (though as we've mentioned there are problems verifying a musical score is 'accurate').  A very small number of people might be interested in making a remix of a song, in which case the files with all the different sound layers would be a useful option to allow for uploading (though will take up a lot of disk space, so might not be worth it).

The whole idea of uploading noises from instruments to somehow make it easier for people to develop music and not actually being about rewarding the development of actual music is a bit weird.  Why not keep it simple and reward music creators/producers (i.e. tracks you can listen to) with DVC and have a bunch of admins and users paid a small amount of DVC to listen to the uploaded tracks and rate them. 


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December 24, 2013, 04:47:01 PM
 #2973

The 8 ways of participating, I like the sound of that... shaolin grandmaster approves of that.

I am still cogitating / meditating upon your schema, but right off the bat it strikes me that a lot of the explanations parts of it seem like condidates for Devtome, by having the explanations in written form.


Exactly.

So we would have a collaboration that interconnects devtome (textonly) with devmusic (music media) from the getgo.

+1

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December 24, 2013, 04:49:09 PM
 #2974

Since art is not a science as is not being "developped", we must use a different approach. See my 8 ways of participating

Of course art is being developed and has been since way back long ago, probably further back even than when cave dwellers developed the art and/or science of developing pigments from minerals and plants and maybe even from components of animals and so on, and developed techniques for representing, using such tools, recognisable things such as animals, hunters, maybe even actual hunts...

At some point techniques such as perspective and texture and such were also developed, such that over time the degree of three-dimensionality that could be, or was, conveyed by flat images was increased.

And so on. Nowadays we have developed entire new media and entire new techniques.

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December 24, 2013, 04:55:01 PM
 #2975

There's no support for walletnotify? Where can i push a patch for it?

Markm, there an official git link for this?

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December 24, 2013, 05:00:34 PM
 #2976

A song isn't a like a piece of software where there are going to be lots of people wanting to make a copy and make changes requiring a commented code.

Not to you it isn't maybe, and I am not really keen at all on the lots of people part because, for one thing, creativity is often not regarded as something that crowds, mobs, masses are considered the ideal of, rather we often see that total loners producing stuff the masses might even try to suppress and certainly do not like are later appreciated for their creativity.

But to me, it is absolutely the case that in order for it to be truly useful for development it needs to be much more than just a teaser that forces me to have to go back to some black box in order to adapt it for use in some particular project or re-cast it in some different character's voice or adjust it in accordance with the fact that the singer turns out, in some particular player's playing of a scenario in which the song is used, to have a bad cold or sore throat or whatever thus sounds different than that same singer does when you bring a bottle of cough-syrup and have the singer drink some of the syrup before singing the song and so on and so on and so on.

There are entire universes being developed, in which singers of many races and species and genders need songs to sing...

-MarkM-

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December 24, 2013, 05:03:39 PM
 #2977

There's no support for walletnotify? Where can i push a patch for it?

Markm, there an official git link for this?

My version of the code is supposedly not to be the "current" version going forward, so any pushes / patches / etc ought to go to the currently in development version, though I am not even sure who is developing that or even if there is only one candate version for that. (Weren't at least two diferent "new versions" being worked on by different people or teams?)

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December 24, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
 #2978

Since art is not a science as is not being "developped", we must use a different approach. See my 8 ways of participating

Of course art is being developed and has been since way back long ago, probably further back even than when cave dwellers developed the art and/or science of developing pigments from minerals and plants and maybe even from components of animals and so on, and developed techniques for representing, using such tools, recognisable things such as animals, hunters, maybe even actual hunts...

At some point techniques such as perspective and texture and such were also developed, such that over time the degree of three-dimensionality that could be, or was, conveyed by flat images was increased.

And so on. Nowadays we have developed entire new media and entire new techniques.

-MarkM-


Yes, but I would differentiate further, in that a developer formulates a goal before he goes ahead and develops it.


I have never formulated a goal when creating music. I just sit on the keyboard and am always surprised what emerges after a while.

THAT is the key difference.

Ofcourse I can formulate a general direction like today my mood is for classical music, I want to use harpsichord and strings... etc... let's see where it leads me.

Music is "played" not developed.

I play while creating music.

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December 24, 2013, 05:09:55 PM
 #2979

There's no support for walletnotify? Where can i push a patch for it?

Markm, there an official git link for this?

My version of the code is supposedly not to be the "current" version going forward, so any pushes / patches / etc ought to go to the currently in development version, though I am not even sure who is developing that or even if there is only one candate version for that. (Weren't at least two diferent "new versions" being worked on by different people or teams?)

-MarkM-


I think your right, maybe unthinkingbit needs to assign an official branch. Well when he pushes the walletnotify to the git, which version do you think it best to push to currently?

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December 24, 2013, 05:19:06 PM
 #2980

Yes, but I would differentiate further, in that a developer formulates a goal before he goes ahead and develops it.


I have never formulated a goal when creating music. I just sit on the keyboard and am always surprised what emerges after a while.

THAT is the key difference.

Ofcourse I can formulate a general direction like today my mood is for classical music, I want to use harpsichord and strings... etc... let's see where it leads me.

Music is "played" not developed.

I play while creating music.

One major goal of mine is to enable the development of playing.

I want people to be able to play games in which characters such as bards can exist and in which a bard is a type of character that is typically known for his her or it's ability to play and/or sing and/or recite (perform) songs and/or poems.

So development of the ability to play is important for the development of the kind of immersive environments/games I am trying to develop.

In order to develop free open source such games, I need free open source play-techniques and methods for playing free open source songs or instruments, so that, for example, a bard can be portrayed playing an instrument and/or singing a song.

The number of people who want the ability to create such games is not as important or driving really, even if you insist on being able to appeal to a huge audience in order to get lots of advertising revenue, because even if only one person in the entire world produces such games, and thus only one person in the entire world perceives the importance of the ability to tinker with the underlying details that make a particular song sound like the singer has a sore throat, or sound like the singer is female, or sound like the singer is pronouncing the lyrics with a particular accent - pronouncing it the way a certain region's inhabitants pronounce that word for example - and so on the end result game the development of which is enabled by having full access to as much as possible of the underlying mechanisms and instructions might end up being massively appealing to the masses...

-MarkM-

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