NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[IveBeenBit]

There is some misunderstanding about AT and Asset trading.

There is no "magical" direct trading going on here - account A sends X Chips to the AT then account B sends Y Chops to the AT.

Remember an AT is "just like another account" so if you look at the Assets for the AT you would now see:

[AT]
Chips - X
Chops - Y

Now the AT simply decides to "transfer" the Chips and Chops Assets to the opposite parties that "sent them to it".

So there is no "direct" transfer and we haven't changed AE at all.

It is an "atomic" transfer because the AT will either do the swap or refund (so neither side can "cheat").

People can do such transfers "right now" except they have to trust each other or send to a 3rd party. So all we are doing by using an AE is *replacing* an escrow with a program.

Wouldn't the AT-based marketplace have an orderbook, though? Of say,
USD / OIL
DOGE / OIL
BTC / GLD

Etc??? With a list of bids and asks that people can sift through to decide to accept, or to place their own?

This is what I meant about there being two entirely separate marketplaces.

[CIYAM]

Wouldn't the AT-based marketplace have an orderbook, though? Of say,
USD / OIL
DOGE / OIL
BTC / GLD

Etc??? With a list of bids and asks that people can sift through to decide to accept, or to place their own?

No - it isn't a "separate" market - an AT is just an "escrow" using the existing AE system.

As I said - "you can already do this" using the Asset Transfer feature - you just need an "escrow" in between (or have to trust each other).

If people are so concerned with this then what they should be asking for is the *removal* of the Asset Transfer feature.

[Anon136]

Anon136,

The free market must be allowed to flourish on the blockchain. Why insist on settling trade in NXT for every transaction when every transaction already has a NXT cost to process? What if a consumer wants to use the Nxt AE, has NXT for transaction fees and wants to buy $10 million of oil from a reputable Nxt AE Issuer (vetted with history, positive transactions, other due diligence items).

In your scenario the buyer must buy $10 million worth of NXT (about 250 million NXT) or about 1/4 of the existing TOTAL supply of NXT.
This simple attempt to purchase 25% of the supply of the TOTAL STAKE of a cryptocurrency would drive the price of NXT far past reasonable and the order could not be filled at the preferred price (the price before $10 million of NXT buy orders hit the market, attempting to take control of 25% of the supply of a Proof of Stake Currency.)

Then the user of the NXT AE (now seller of NXT) would have to sell $10 million of NXT to buy $10 million of oil from the reputable Nxt AE Issuer.
Big money needs room to move. Nxt needs to provide that room to move. I believe my illustration showing why Nxt AE needs to allow trading between any pair is complete.

Both "transactions" (in the colloquial sense) could be executed simultaneously in the same "transaction" (using it this time to refer to one record of information in a block not the more colloquial sense i used it in prior). In this way the nxt market wouldn't be moved.

now im starting to think about whether this is the sort of thing that could be stopped even if we wanted to. it may not be that sort of thing.

[NxtMinnow]

Certain AT programs could allow AE users to place options contracts like puts and calls based on trading pairs in the AE.

EDIT: other AT programs could provide annuity payments from blockchain based assets.

Wouldn't the AT-based marketplace have an orderbook, though? Of say,
USD / OIL
DOGE / OIL
BTC / GLD

Etc??? With a list of bids and asks that people can sift through to decide to accept, or to place their own?

No - it isn't a "separate" market - an AT is just an "escrow" using the existing AE system.

As I said - "you can already do this" using the Asset Transfer feature - you just need an "escrow" in between (or have to trust each other).

If people are so concerned with this then what they should be asking for is the *removal* of the Asset Transfer feature.

[CIYAM]

Certain AT programs could allow AE users to place options contracts like puts and calls based on trading pairs in the AE.

Sure I think options will be possible - the point is "you could do it now" (just requires a 3rd party) as we have a "transfer" mechanism (for those thinking that it is AT that is providing the functionality).

There are going to be also sorts of complicated trading ideas worked out via ATs (or offered by 3rd parties) down the track.

[IveBeenBit]

It's just that things get far more complicated without 'pegging to NXT'.  I hope I have highlighted some concerns, and hope that we can collectively come up with solutions.

In terms of vision, my personal belief is that NXT must be a lubricant to many other economic activities.  Should aim to be the cheapest and most effortless mechanism in support of everything else.  Transaction fees should be kept exceptionally low, and we should never concern ourselves with the value of 1 NXT.

Jack, your analysis of too many trading pairs is mathematically sound insofar as it's THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE that the scenario you describe would happen, but you ignore human behavior and examples of markets that exist in reality.

Let's pretend the USA released its control over the oil markets and oil could now be traded in something other than USD.

Do you really think the markets are going to be flooded with "too many oil markets?" Oil / Wheat, Oil / pork bellies, oil / silver, oil / gold, oil / USD, oil / Euro, oil / copper, oil / cement, oil / ethylene oxide, oil / cocaine, oil / soybeans, oil / yen, oil / iron, oil / corn, oil / orange juice, oil / lumber

Yes...they are all theoretically possible, and in effect, that's what you are so worried about. Hopefully you understand how silly it looks when you see it listed that way.

No, even if oil were not forced to be traded in USD (akin to you insisting that everything be priced in NXT), there would be maybe 3 major oil markets

OIL / USD
OIL / EUR
OIL / CNY
And maybe OIL / JPY (Yen)

These 4 markets would be patronized by whatever was most convenient for the participating traders. A trader in Europe would rather bargain in Euros than dollars.

All the other tiny markets (E.g. oil / orange juice) would be specialized to unique players and would constitute a tiny fraction of the trade that happened. The rest of the world could safely ignore them entirely.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY that there will be 5000 asset pairs reducing liquidity. Your Nxt client will filter out those asset pairs of small liquidity, and you'd never even see them. If you own an orange tree farm and want to trade orange juice for gold or oil, then you will have to go looking for that info. It would probably be easier, though, for you to sell your oranges for one of the "top tier" currencies, and use that currency to buy your oil.

Let the market work.

Let people do business however THEY see fit.

Do not try to force people to use YOUR favored currency. That is behavior suited for governments.

NXT will succeed, IF we empower people to do business in THEIR preferred way.

[Anon136]

Certain AT programs could allow AE users to place options contracts like puts and calls based on trading pairs in the AE.

Sure I think options will be possible - the point is "you could do it now" (just requires a 3rd party) as we have a "transfer" mechanism (for those thinking that it is AT that is providing the functionality).

There are going to be also sorts of complicated trading ideas worked out via ATs (or offered by 3rd parties) down the track.

Is AT just a feature of a truing complete scheme that you have in mind?

[Sebastien256]

It's just that things get far more complicated without 'pegging to NXT'.  I hope I have highlighted some concerns, and hope that we can collectively come up with solutions.

In terms of vision, my personal belief is that NXT must be a lubricant to many other economic activities.  Should aim to be the cheapest and most effortless mechanism in support of everything else.  Transaction fees should be kept exceptionally low, and we should never concern ourselves with the value of 1 NXT.

Jack, your analysis of too many trading pairs is mathematically sound insofar as it's THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE that the scenario you describe would happen, but you ignore human behavior and examples of markets that exist in reality.

Let's pretend the USA released its control over the oil markets and oil could now be traded in something other than USD.

Do you really think the markets are going to be flooded with "too many oil markets?" Oil / Wheat, Oil / pork bellies, oil / silver, oil / gold, oil / USD, oil / Euro, oil / copper, oil / cement, oil / ethylene oxide, oil / cocaine, oil / soybeans, oil / yen, oil / iron, oil / corn, oil / orange juice, oil / lumber

Yes...they are all theoretically possible, and in effect, that's what you are so worried about. Hopefully you understand how silly it looks when you see it listed that way.

No, even if oil were not forced to be traded in USD (akin to you insisting that everything be priced in NXT), there would be maybe 3 major oil markets

OIL / USD
OIL / EUR
OIL / CNY
And maybe OIL / JPY (Yen)

These 4 markets would be patronized by whatever was most convenient for the participating traders. A trader in Europe would rather bargain in Euros than dollars.

All the other tiny markets (E.g. oil / orange juice) would be specialized to unique players and would constitute a tiny fraction of the trade that happened. The rest of the world could safely ignore them entirely.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY that there will be 5000 asset pairs reducing liquidity. Your Nxt client will filter out those asset pairs of small liquidity, and you'd never even see them. If you own an orange tree farm and want to trade orange juice for gold or oil, then you will have to go looking for that info. It would probably be easier, though, for you to sell your oranges for one of the "top tier" currencies, and use that currency to buy your oil.

Let the market work.

Let people do business however THEY see fit.

Do not try to force people to use YOUR favored currency. That is behavior suited for governments.

NXT will succeed, IF we empower people to do business in THEIR preferred way.

+1 Could not say it better. I think that too.

[allwelder]

Re-posting my Public Service Announcement:
(... because I haven't posted it in almost 500 pages of posts here...)

If you are new to Nxt and don't want to read through 2420 pages of posts, come to the wiki, parts of which are now available in nineteen languages:
- Learn about Nxt
- Get started
- get basic questions answered in the FAQ and common problems pages
- Learn how to set up a public node on a VPS
- read up on the Nxt high-level API, which you can use to build apps, games, clients, utilities, and more
- find additional resources for programmers, including suggested methods for integrating Nxt with your sites, API documentation, software change logs, a PHP library, and more.
- check out the current draft version of the Nxt whitepaper, which is being built and refined by top community contributors (it's still rough, but there's lots of great content already)

There are also great forums with lots of info and support for beginners. Many of the best Nxt wiki articles are based on information originally contributed here:
- The nxtcrypto.org forum
- The nextcoin.org forum

... and don't forget our other Nxt sites (and these are just the English ones):
- Summaries of this thread
- http://www.nxtclients.org
- http://www.nxtcrypto.org
- http://mynxt.org
- http://nxtarea.com/

Wiki contributors help to pull information from these threads every day to keep the wiki up to date. You can help too!! contribute, or translate.

Another:www.nxt123.org

[CIYAM]

Is AT just a feature of a truing complete scheme that you have in mind?

AT is basically an Nxt account that is a "computer program" (which was created with a "Turing complete" instruction set).

I say *basically* because it most likely won't have "all the same abilities" as any "normal" account (and can't use the *real* Nxt API as it is "sandboxed" to using the Nxt AT API).

I think Ethereum's focus on "contracts" is somewhat limited which is why I created the "lottery" use case.

[brooklynbtc]

Just distributed over 2200 NXT to the miners for less than 24 hours of mining!!!
And that was with the price jump!

My 149 average dropped to 108, but that's what you get for rising prices.  

[brooklynbtc]

are we forking? or is mynxt.info off the chain?

I got 3 emails from mynxt.info tonight saying I had forged blocks.. that can be right. two with payments and they don't show in the explorer..

[brooklynbtc]

Jack, your analysis of too many trading pairs is mathematically sound insofar as it's THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE that the scenario you describe would happen, but you ignore human behavior and examples of markets that exist in reality.

Let's pretend the USA released its control over the oil markets and oil could now be traded in something other than USD.

Do you really think the markets are going to be flooded with "too many oil markets?" Oil / Wheat, Oil / pork bellies, oil / silver, oil / gold, oil / USD, oil / Euro, oil / copper, oil / cement, oil / ethylene oxide, oil / cocaine, oil / soybeans, oil / yen, oil / iron, oil / corn, oil / orange juice, oil / lumber

Yes...they are all theoretically possible, and in effect, that's what you are so worried about. Hopefully you understand how silly it looks when you see it listed that way.

No, even if oil were not forced to be traded in USD (akin to you insisting that everything be priced in NXT), there would be maybe 3 major oil markets

OIL / USD
OIL / EUR
OIL / CNY
And maybe OIL / JPY (Yen)

These 4 markets would be patronized by whatever was most convenient for the participating traders. A trader in Europe would rather bargain in Euros than dollars.

All the other tiny markets (E.g. oil / orange juice) would be specialized to unique players and would constitute a tiny fraction of the trade that happened. The rest of the world could safely ignore them entirely.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY that there will be 5000 asset pairs reducing liquidity. Your Nxt client will filter out those asset pairs of small liquidity, and you'd never even see them. If you own an orange tree farm and want to trade orange juice for gold or oil, then you will have to go looking for that info. It would probably be easier, though, for you to sell your oranges for one of the "top tier" currencies, and use that currency to buy your oil.

Thank you for the well reasoned response and some chuckles .  The 'programmer' guy in me wants to find all the ways a system can break... you have forced to see how market economics can influence seemingly intractable 'theoretical' problems.

I have milk.  Will trade 8 fl. oz. for 6 chocolate chip cookies.  

I have wine, will trade .5cl for 100g hard cheese

[CIYAM]

I have milk.  Will trade 8 fl. oz. for 6 chocolate chip cookies.  
...
I have wine, will trade .5cl for 100g hard cheese

I have 1 empty bottle of wine will trade for 2 aspirins.

[dhit]

Into 5th!  Looking forward to unseating Peercoin at 4.

[brooklynbtc]

I have milk.  Will trade 8 fl. oz. for 6 chocolate chip cookies.  
...
I have wine, will trade .5cl for 100g hard cheese

I have 1 empty bottle of wine will trade for 2 aspirins.

empties are worth 10¢

[salsacz]

so they decided to accept Nxt, but a problem is - how can I hide this from my gf?
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-jewellery-watches-Crypto-Jeweler-Buy-diamonds-gold-and-silver-with-Bitcoin-W0QQAdIdZ576680963

[allwelder]

http://hashrate.org just paid out it's third payout.  (http://hashrate.org/payouts.html)
Five miners took home over 100 NxT, two miners took home over 200 NxT and one took home over 400 NxT
Start mining for NxT today!

just curious.
How to mine Nxt with specialized rig?

At the moment I am mining in both pools with an ASIC miner using cgiminer. You can also use GPU miners using scrypt. Is that what you mean?

I just mean there is no mining in Nxt.
So why and how use these hash power of specialized rig for Nxt mining? principle?

[salsacz]

allwelder: smoking is bad, but poeple still smoke

[mczarnek]

Anon136,

The free market must be allowed to flourish on the blockchain. Why insist on settling trade in NXT for every transaction when every transaction already has a NXT cost to process? What if a consumer wants to use the Nxt AE, has NXT for transaction fees and wants to buy $10 million of oil from a reputable Nxt AE Issuer (vetted with history, positive transactions, other due diligence items).

In your scenario the buyer must buy $10 million worth of NXT (about 250 million NXT) or about 1/4 of the existing TOTAL supply of NXT.
This simple attempt to purchase 25% of the supply of the TOTAL STAKE of a cryptocurrency would drive the price of NXT far past reasonable and the order could not be filled at the preferred price (the price before $10 million of NXT buy orders hit the market, attempting to take control of 25% of the supply of a Proof of Stake Currency.)

Then the user of the NXT AE (now seller of NXT) would have to sell $10 million of NXT to buy $10 million of oil from the reputable Nxt AE Issuer.
Big money needs room to move. Nxt needs to provide that room to move. I believe my illustration showing why Nxt AE needs to allow trading between any pair is complete.

Keep in mind this is also one reason that big companies aren't going to start accepting Bitcoin soon, Amazon does 4.9 billion dollars in sales, now people would have to start buying Bitcoin's, Amazon would accept them, and use Bitpay to dump them back onto the market.. maybe there would be an equilibrium but I actually think that the price would start going down.. 9 times out of 10 people aren't going to buy Nxt just to use them to purchase an item at Amazon but if you buy something at Amazon, they'll dump Nxt onto the market.  So unless people refill their wallets for everything spend, the price will actually start going down.

Us Nxt as a platform to facilitate transactions in a currency better suited to grow or keep a more stable value, and the price stays fairly even.  I actually have an idea in mind for a perfect currency to run on top of Nxt that would be more stable and more trusted by both sides to retain it's value.

Nxt still maintains it's value and it's valuable because you buy Nxt to run services that require the forgers be fed.  Anytime a transaction goes through, you have to at least own enough Nxt to feed the forgers, so you have to own Nxt, say everyone buy $50 worth, enough to send a NxtTxt, you could still hold onto Nxt and at time of purchase convert it to the currency running on top of Nxt to be held by the party on the other end, you need to pay in Nxt anytime you use a Nxt smart contract.  

And you do still make sure that Nxt can be used for purchases.