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Author Topic: Devcoin  (Read 369475 times)
markm
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June 12, 2013, 06:35:53 AM
 #3361

From the Bitcoin Education Project:
Quote
We'd like for someone from the Devcoin community to record a video lecture on Devcoin for our free community built course on Bitcoin:

https://www.udemy.com/bitcoin-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-crypto/

We have nearly 2,000 subscribers in about six weeks and we are on target for 10,000 by the end of the Summer thus this would be an excellent opportunity for you guys to share devcoin with a much broader audience.

Here is our project's website:

http://btcedproject.org/

I'm looking for an introductory 15-30 minute lecture that answers the following questions:

What is Devcoin?
What does Devcoin seek to accomplish?
How can I acquire and use devcoins?
Where are the Devcoin communities?
How can I help the Devcoin community?

Ok, I got this PM, and was discussing possible animation or other options to avoid one of our ugly mugs being permanently attached to devcoin. Perhaps a script even if it does end up being one person just talking on screen. But this should be done with proper lighting, makeup, etc lets get this done professionally. I have no idea what a bounty for this would be worth, but I would suggest one be issued for the hard work that will go into this.

Edit: Finshaggy, are you in contact with that mon corpus or whatever, a pretty face never hurts with gaining public attention.

I received this PM also, and was sitting here with an OpenSimulator viewer open on another desktop, reading this forum directly in a browser so far rather than having my avatar in OpenSim read it on a simulated computer in the avatar's home...

...So your suggestion of using an animation is great! We can meet in OpenSim, on OSgrid!

Do a regions search on the map for Digitalis. You will see a bunch of regions, east of Turia's bunch of regions. I am running all those regions east of Turia's so called outer plains (that are actually now sea regions).

Not only the regions with Digitalis in the name; I have been putting Linda Kellie's free regions (from LindaKellie.com, or really now from the site her domain now redirects to) online, and used generic names for them. So the region called Conference Centre is her Conference Center archive made manifest on the grid. We can meet the interviewers or whatever in avatar form at the conference centre!

We can also rent plots of land, or entire regions, for DeVCoins... Cannot really sell gear since all the gear is free gear, tons of free gear, Linda Kellie made vast amounts of content and made it all freely available, so we have been setting it up on OSgrid to showcase it and really also just to get to walk in among it and get a good look at it all. That is where a lot of my hours of work on free open source stuff have been going this round, heck I got 48 hours in in 48 hours before i slept! Smiley

-MarkM-

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owsleybeatsbigcartel
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June 12, 2013, 06:37:48 AM
 #3362

Please ignore my post. I was looking at everyones profile starting with Owlsley and with all the crap going on got myself mixed up.

I can admit I made an error and do not mean to throw any ones character in a bad light. My apologies to any one I mentioned, apart from Owlsleytroll.



WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED? LOL

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no i just feel when scammers exploit your computer then cheese in your face  =  i;m going to smoke out the demons here

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June 12, 2013, 06:44:14 AM
 #3363

Please ignore my post. I was looking at everyones profile starting with Owlsley and with all the crap going on got myself mixed up.

I can admit I made an error and do not mean to throw any ones character in a bad light. My apologies to any one I mentioned, apart from Owlsleytroll.



come on i'll bet you how much u got?

This is a free forum, not a forum from Orwell's 1984, anyone has the right to speak up or keep silent, isn't it?

ya no worries just if you are going to post stuff like that back it up he said does any 1 wanna bet>> ya i do!~   personal attacks name calling not cool

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June 12, 2013, 06:49:19 AM
 #3364

How is that?  I mean, isn't this how google gets paid?  Are advertisers that dumb?  I presumed if it was good enough for google and billion dollar advertisers it would be good enough for devtome and devcoin.  Or is there something in addition which google employs to ensure there's no manipulation?  

Anybody know how google does it to keep it fair and keep bots out?  TIA.

They throw money at it.

Our best approach to measuring article usefulness would probably be to use a major huge big money advertising network such as Google AdSense so that they do the worrying about whether the views are kae or not and we just get paid by them and get stats per page from them telling how much money each page made. Then we don't care about visits or article quality we just get money we can then divvy up. (Not all of it going to the author of the page, since putting that page somewhere else it would not benefit from all the cross-links from all the devtome articles wikilinking to it, all the pagerank of the devtome and so on. Also not in fiat of course; the fiat would be used to buy devcoins on an exchange and some fraction of those devcoins would go out to the authors of the pages proportionately to how much of the advertising earnings was from that page.)

The expense of policing visits and clicks is a huge thing, all the puny little alternate advertising networks people keep creating are basically free money for clickfraud practitioners once they have been thrown out of AdSense or given up trying to make yet another sockpuppet adsense account to try again with. Good luck making a devcoin powered advertisign netowrk that works, bitcoin has some and they don't work yet, i doubt a devcoin one will really be any better.

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June 12, 2013, 06:57:10 AM
 #3365

Also, to clarify something else... ad CTR is usually based more on the advertiser themselves than anyone else. If two advertisers create their ads, they will have different CTR's, even when on the same content. There have been ads that run a 0.00% CTR because they flat out suck, and others than convert 10%+. When you bring revenue into this as part of determining how much each writer's "value" is, you're not only basing it on THEIR work, but also the advertisers', something the writer has absolutely no control over.

The author does have some control over the advertisers. For example the write can write about somethng advertisers pay $100+ per clickthrough on, or something advertisers pay $0.05 or less per clickthrough on.

Often the high paying ads will try to word themselves in a way that will discourage anyone but truly interested parties from clicking through, such as making it clear their product costs money, that they are not offering any freebies etc. Whereas topic paying low rates might well want every click they can get, so will say stuff intended to get anyone to click, since they might well be sending the traffic to a page that will from there sort out the traffic and push it into higher-paying variants of the topic or higher paying related topics.

Also once an author sees the kinds of ads their page gets assigned, they could adapt their text in ways intended to create more interest in some of the things they have seen advertised on their page.

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June 12, 2013, 07:43:41 AM
 #3366

How is a hackathon any different from a writeathon or a poetry contest?

You seem to be ignoring everything what I'm saying...

A successful software project can bring a lot of users, particularly paying users. And thus revenue. Potentially millions of people will buy Devcoins and use them for payments.

If you can do same with poetry contest, go ahead. But I just don't see how poetry contest can do that. You know, for some reason venture capitalists invest into software projects, not into poetry contest. And they kinda like market caps Smiley

And higher market cap means that more people can get paid. So it makes sense to focus on high-impact projects first, and later expand the program to get more people involved.

Please understand me correctly, I'm not against writers and artists. What I'm saying is that we need to get incentives right, i.e. to optimize for a thing we are optimizing.

Let's say I go to devtome.com, what do I see? An ugly page with tonnes and tonnes of mess on it. It is hard to find anything.

Nobody is thinking about presentation because they are paid for writing words!

Now, say, if Devtome was done right, its front page would be nicely organized. It should also be aesthetically pleasing, rather than using default theme.

A visitor which gets to devtome front page should see general categories, features articles etc. Focus on content which is of high quality, is nicely organized etc. Sweep half-baked shit under the rug.

So perhaps it can work if you writers get your shit together and make presentation nice. But "getting your shit together" isn't incentivized, only writing more and more words is. So nobody even bothered to take 5 minutes and think how site can be made more appealing.

This clearly demonstrates how incentives are important. It is rare for things to get done without incentive.

Now compare Devtome to http://bitcoinmagazine.com/ What's different?

That's why I'm saying that organizational structure is the problem. It shouldn't be a flat hippie community. There should be a person who is responsible for marketing, for growth, for content organization, software development etc. And everybody should be accountable for what he is doing: if he isn't doing it right, he'll get replaced.

Even better, run several projects in parallel and let them compete with each other. Competition increases efficiency, and without competition you get fat and lazy.

Just because a lot of programmers produce a lot of code it does not mean that code will be worth any money.

Of course we are talking only about projects which increase demand for Devcoins. Simply writing code does not work

This is true, but it does not change the fact that it's easier for people to get paid writing for Devcoin because the bounty system isnt automated while Devtome is.

We should not care about what is easier for people. (The easiest thing is to do nothing, of course.) We should only care about revenue if we want to grow the market cap. And higher market cap allows more people to work on things.

You say that "math doesn't work" and you different philosophical opinion. But in reality you're missing cause and effect relationship here.

I think perhaps the problem with Devcoin is that it can only support a finite amount of writers and programmers at a time. That isn't how a market is supposed to work.

Huh, Devcoin isn't a market. Devcoin bounties are supposed to finance things which cannot be financed in traditional way.

But otherwise you can get a whole economy where people get paid in Devcoins which do not come from bounties, but are bought on market. Infinitely many workers can work if they can sell what they do.

When productivity and quality increases the profits aren't supposed to shrink.

Your profits won't shrink if what you do increases market cap.

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markm
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June 12, 2013, 07:48:17 AM
 #3367

It's not just inflation that I'm talking about, I'm saying the idea that somehow Devcoins will become valuable when they are generating at this rate. Inflation by itself isn't an issue unless it's at a rate faster than the market can handle and then the actual purchasing power and pay of every worker shrinks. This is the opposite of what is happening with Bitcoin and Litecoin. With those coins if you write or code and get paid in either of those coins then it's reasonable to believe that a year from now your coins might be worth even more so you might save them. With Devcoin we aren't seeing that trend are we.  So if you're a mathematician explain to me why we aren't seeing the same trend with Devcoin that we see with Bitcoin and Litecoin? Are you saying it's just because of market cap?

So bitcoin is designed wrong?

Remember bitcoin too is designed to produce a constant number of coins for four years.

So until we hit four years we are no different. Since you don't think four years ahead is relevant what are you proposing, a pre-mined coin in which there is no inflation because the Tome owns all coins from block one and if anyone ever wants one they will have to get it from them?

Or You want a instamine coin maybe, half the coins minted the first month, another quarter the second month, another eighth the third month and so on so that in siz months when the problems you expect come along there is already by then no inflation?

You sound like a bit of a nutbar frankly, no different from those who insist bitcoin will die because it does NOT make the same amount of coins forever, except you take the opposite position.

The reason the coin is going down in price is because it is being given out to opportunists who are no different from the miners whose opportunism was limited in DeVCoin by only giving them 10% of the coins.

Maybe a partial solution would be to only let 10% of the coins be written-for just like only 10% can be mined.

Bitcoins have been going down too lately, have you noticed? Same reason: people dumping them. Maybe people are giving them all to asIC companies who are in turn turning them into fiat to buy parts or something, I don't know, but ultimately if the value goes down it traces back to people dumping.

i read a mention earlier that we need people to buy things with devcoin, and was tempted to point out right there that actually a lot seems to depend on WHAT people buy, or maybe on WHERE/HOW they buy it.

The what/how part is because maybe buying fiat is not the core reason the value goes down, maybe the core reason is the fiat is being bought on a certain style of market. Maybe no matter what you buy if you buy it on that format/form of market you inevitably drive price down, because the players who play those markets earn their money by trying to make sure that you need to sell more and more for less and less to sell in volume and need to buy less and less for more and more in order to buy in any volume.

In a lot of ways those markets seem ass-backwards from normal markets. In normal markets if you want to buy wholesale quantities you pay a lower price, not a higher price! Open Transactions uses scales for markets in order to facilititate those kinds of things, things we see in real markets whether you buy rice or potatoes or pig-bellies or iron ingots or almost anything else. Quantity discounts!

So maybe the structure of the marketplaces is as much or more to blame than the specific commodity being bought and sold or being used as "currency" to buy and sell "with".

Even if the newer coins don't even offer much in advancement, if people think they can make more money from them they'll use it. Devcoin has a good intention, and a good idea, but implemented wrong, and designed wrong, these are my opinions.

So writers are like miners, they will jump on each new instamined / insta-written-for coin, there will be a few new coins a day for a while, hmm are there still a few more each day right now, i haven't even bothered to watch, more useless crap blah blah blah. let them, once they have a few hundred wallets maybe they will look back and see writing for a hundred tomes a month is enough, they can afford to drop a couple hundred from their daily grind...

-MarkM-

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June 12, 2013, 07:59:52 AM
 #3368

It's not just inflation that I'm talking about, I'm saying the idea that somehow Devcoins will become valuable when they are generating at this rate. Inflation by itself isn't an issue unless it's at a rate faster than the market can handle and then the actual purchasing power and pay of every worker shrinks. This is the opposite of what is happening with Bitcoin and Litecoin. With those coins if you write or code and get paid in either of those coins then it's reasonable to believe that a year from now your coins might be worth even more so you might save them. With Devcoin we aren't seeing that trend are we.  So if you're a mathematician explain to me why we aren't seeing the same trend with Devcoin that we see with Bitcoin and Litecoin? Are you saying it's just because of market cap?

So bitcoin is designed wrong?

Remember bitcoin too is designed to produce a constant number of coins for four years.

So until we hit four years we are no different. Since you don't think four years ahead is relevant what are you proposing, a pre-mined coin in which there is no inflation because the Tome owns all coins from block one and if anyone ever wants one they will have to get it from them?

Or You want a instamine coin maybe, half the coins minted the first month, another quarter the second month, another eighth the third month and so on so that in siz months when the problems you expect come along there is already by then no inflation?

You sound like a bit of a nutbar frankly, no different from those who insist bitcoin will die because it does NOT make the same amount of coins forever, except you take the opposite position.

The reason the coin is going down in price is because it is being given out to opportunists who are no different from the miners whose opportunism was limited in DeVCoin by only giving them 10% of the coins.

Maybe a partial solution would be to only let 10% of the coins be written-for just like only 10% can be mined.

Bitcoins have been going down too lately, have you noticed? Same reason: people dumping them. Maybe people are giving them all to asIC companies who are in turn turning them into fiat to buy parts or something, I don't know, but ultimately if the value goes down it traces back to people dumping.

i read a mention earlier that we need people to buy things with devcoin, and was tempted to point out right there that actually a lot seems to depend on WHAT people buy, or maybe on WHERE/HOW they buy it.

The what/how part is because maybe buying fiat is not the core reason the value goes down, maybe the core reason is the fiat is being bought on a certain style of market. Maybe no matter what you buy if you buy it on that format/form of market you inevitably drive price down, because the players who play those markets earn their money by trying to make sure that you need to sell more and more for less and less to sell in volume and need to buy less and less for more and more in order to buy in any volume.

In a lot of ways those markets seem ass-backwards from normal markets. In normal markets if you want to buy wholesale quantities you pay a lower price, not a higher price! Open Transactions uses scales for markets in order to facilititate those kinds of things, things we see in real markets whether you buy rice or potatoes or pig-bellies or iron ingots or almost anything else. Quantity discounts!

So maybe the structure of the marketplaces is as much or more to blame than the specific commodity being bought and sold or being used as "currency" to buy and sell "with".

Even if the newer coins don't even offer much in advancement, if people think they can make more money from them they'll use it. Devcoin has a good intention, and a good idea, but implemented wrong, and designed wrong, these are my opinions.

So writers are like miners, they will jump on each new instamined / insta-written-for coin, there will be a few new coins a day for a while, hmm are there still a few more each day right now, i haven't even bothered to watch, more useless crap blah blah blah. let them, once they have a few hundred wallets maybe they will look back and see writing for a hundred tomes a month is enough, they can afford to drop a couple hundred from their daily grind...

-MarkM-


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June 12, 2013, 08:10:12 AM
 #3369

Imagine if Satoshi were paid in Devcoins instead. If Satoshi had millions of Devcoins, or even billions, it just would not work because there is no reason to mine Devcoins when 90% of profits go to the developers. Ethicoin has the advantage here in that it's fairly distributed 50/50 which to me makes a lot of sense.

Actually i suspect it makes less sense.

I think it might make more sense to limit each group/category to 10%, not just the miners.

Like maybe 10% for miners, 10% for writers, 10% for coders, 10% for businesses, 10% for media presences (e.g. websites), 10% for hardware (the chips and circuit boards and 3d printers and spaceships and so on), etc. not sure of 10 good categories offhand so maybe a few floating tithes, used to add focus to one or more of the categories at times when a specific category is temporarily needing more work than the others?

Half for merged-mining, half for everyone else seems way too miner-centric, but I guess that is why they don't plan to merged-mine: they are struggling to come up with the next major pump and dump coin so obviously need the miners to get lots of money fast and to get the lion's share, and merged mining would too clearly undercut the "importance" of the pump and dumpers er I mean miners...

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June 12, 2013, 08:10:38 AM
 #3370

everything he said

Absolutely agree.

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June 12, 2013, 08:18:44 AM
 #3371

i read a mention earlier that we need people to buy things with devcoin, and was tempted to point out right there that actually a lot seems to depend on WHAT people buy, or maybe on WHERE/HOW they buy it.

I don't see how it is relevant. What matters is supply and demand, and for trading it means how much time coins spend in wallets of merchants and their customers. Higher velocity means lower demand.

So if you want a boost to market cap, you need a kind of a project which freezes coins it gets... A perfect example would be a kind of forum which requires you to destroy some amount of Devcoins to prove that you aren't a scammer.

It is possible to approach this on cryptocurrency design level: since permainflationary alt-coins like Devcoin do not depend on fees, you can make it so fees are destroyed when transaction is made.

Higher number of transaction means that that more devcoins are destroyed... And if there is some trade, in the long term you get a situation where amount of coins which are mined approximately equals to amount which is destroyed.

Then, say, if you make transaction fee equal to 1% of transaction, you get 1% of total trading volume in economy for bounties and miners.

Freicoin's demurrage does something similar, but they got it backwards: currently they starve miners through obligatory donations to foundation, but in a long run miners will get 5% of total trade volume, which is just insane if total trading volume is high. (And foundation gets nothing.) It shouldn't be called Freicoin, it should be called MinerCoin.

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June 12, 2013, 08:42:29 AM
 #3372

I think it might make more sense to limit each group/category to 10%, not just the miners.

Yes. Perhaps like this:

1. Number of shares for each category is limited.
2. Each category has its own person (or several) responsible for bounty allocation.
3. That person should periodically report what bounties were allocated and what tangible results were achieved. Preferably with statistics.
4. If category eats through all shares allocated to it, bounties should be made smaller, or request can be made to increase limit of shares. But in that case request should provide some justification (e.g. explain how it helps to grow market cap) and maybe people (other category managers?) should vote on it.

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June 12, 2013, 09:11:17 AM
 #3373

One of the writers on devtome, Wiser, posted this article outlining their experience and ideas for the project. I think it's definitely worth a read and some thinking through:  http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=on_writing_and_market_forces

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June 12, 2013, 09:52:33 AM
 #3374

If it isn't working now, why should I believe it can work 5 years from now when there will be better alternatives for sure? This is the Devcoin moment where it either finds a way to get everyone working for it, or next year the infrastructure to work for Bitcoin will be set up and no one will care about Devcoin.

Ethicoin has a chance to fill the void and possibly fill the niche so I'm waiting to see what they do and Litecoin isn't exactly Bitcoin so they have a couple years and then they too will be in the same position of Devcoin. Bitcoin is about to go mainstream in 2014 and if Devcoin isn't being used by all of us by that time then I would say it may be too late.

And when I say used by all of us, I mean anyone who wants a job on this forum should be able to find a job which pays in a significant amount of Devcoin if they are willing to do the job. I know people will say Devcoin was set up to pay developers, but most people on this forum are developers and how many of us are paid in Devcoin right now?

Bounties are not a very good way to do things. Subscription models like what Coinbase is offering could kill Devcoin once enough podcasters and bloggers switch over. Writers just starting out will use Devcoin but once they become successful they'll sell their works for Bitcoin. Journalists may have to go with a Bitcoin subscription model because Devcoin just wont pay them enough in $. I can't believe I'm the only one who can see this coming.

The deflationary model is right. You don't agree for philosophical reasons but to anyone who owns Bitcoins which are worth $100 each, and who owns ASICminer shares worth 2.5 BTC each, or who is mining with an ASIC right now, why would these people have a problem with the 21 million Bitcoin limit?
My disagreements are on economic, financial and rationality grounds and not for philiosophical reasons (although I suppose every and any view could be defined as philiosophical). I have bitcoins, like you and most here and sure I'd love bitcoin to work. But it won't. The primary reasons for this are that of replication and deflation.

I won't reiterate my thoughts there again ad nauseum, but I do think you need to flip your points around to the perspective of somebody who doesn't own Bitcoins worth $100 or ASICminer shares worth 2.5 BTC and ask why such an individual or group would purchase Bitcoin rather than an alternative, when Bitcoin does not satisfy most basic criteria of a currency. Bitcoin is not about to go mainstream, it can't go mainstream as is. The issue is similar to the debates on this forum about fractional reserve lending, credit etc - the question is not whether these things are possible with bitcoin, it's why applying rationality and choice anybody would utilise bitcoin for such purposes. They wouldn't. It would make no sense to do so.

I appreciate we don't agree and I welcome your perspective as it's structured and thought through, but if Bitcoin does not address some very straightforward problems any objective observer has to conclude it's either an outright scam, or a slightly less scammy pyramid scheme, or suffers such inherent flaws that it's rendered useless for the purposes claimed, or at best a Bitcoin 2.0 will be along to correct the flaws. Either way, each of those options means there is a significant probability of Bitcoin 1.0 having a future value of 0 beyond a niche group or facilitation mechanism.

The reason I persist with these points is because it bothers me to view a group that could be affecting real change in societal empowerment and subversion of state dictates (which are not all bad, but as we have little choice I have a problem with them) instead prefering to remain in their own bubble.

Remaining blinkered to the reality that just waiting for change and for society's economic, demographic and financial structures to mould themselves to Bitcoin's economics will not happen. Rather will result in the forces that saw the promise of Bitcoin gain some initial credence over broad monetary failings and inequities doing the same to Bitcoin's monetary failings and inequities and finding a better alternative. This is not a philosophical point, it's just the way the world works.

Ethicoin has the same problem. Devcoin is also not perfect, but the unlimited blockchain actually fascilitates much more than Bitcoin. I'm not sure if this was technically ever intended as such beyond the payout equity element, but it is what it is. If it persists Devcoin should over time settle to a price that gives me the ability to buy some, pay a plumber, who pays his window cleaner, who pays to have his computer repaired ...etc... over the long-term with some certainty of forward value until somebody in that chain needs and transfers to fiat. Constant exchange. This will never be possible with Bitcoin as is.

So you are probably correct that Bitcoin works very well for those who already have some, provided they realise their gains before they become losses. Alternatively yes a Bitcoin could be worth anything in the future as a commodity traded between a niche group, but that's a significant gamble and waste of resources in the meantime. I attribute far greater value to a medium of exchange that could in the future increasingly eliminate the requirement for fiat transactions in the fee-based private and state financial system. So yes that's my gamble but I work on probability not prayers, and I think the probability that at some point there is better broad appreciation of workable economic reality > probability that an economically flawed and skewed system will subvert reality. I don't know whether that will be devcoin but it will be a similar 'inflationary' concept, because it has to be to compensate for world realities.

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June 12, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
 #3375

Notabot, I can't find your post, it disappeared.

At any rate, good catch.  On one hand maybe its the same guy as 8 minutes apart is a bit fishy, especially for 3 names with similar opinions.

On the other hand, a lot of new people have joined lately, me included so maybe that's a coincidence.

Thing about luckybit, he's not flaming like this new owsley guy.  His arguments are well thought out and they make a lot of sense.  What he says may end up coming true - it's definitely at least a possibility.

I too think there has to be some change as the current model cannot thrive in its current form - its simply not sustainable as too many people are signing up too fast while the value is going the wrong way, so one would expect talent to really go south.

It's only a theory but it makes sense as this is what one would expect in real life.  I don't know the solution but I do agree we should have a healthy debate about it and perhaps we'll find a solution.  

Because for sure many more coins are coming and devcoin only has a limited window of opportunity to grow and get its name out before a landslide of alt coins come over us all and bury devcoin in an avalanche of obscurity and mediocrity.

Regards,

Vlad


Someone is trolling. Look at my profile. I did not register in June.
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June 12, 2013, 10:32:33 AM
 #3376

How is a hackathon any different from a writeathon or a poetry contest?

You seem to be ignoring everything what I'm saying...

A successful software project can bring a lot of users, particularly paying users. And thus revenue. Potentially millions of people will buy Devcoins and use them for payments.

Closed source software like games? Yeah that brings a lot of users and money. Open source software on the other hand does not. Devcoin promotes free software and for this reason will have the same difficulty getting revenue from programming that it has from writing.

If you can do same with poetry contest, go ahead. But I just don't see how poetry contest can do that. You know, for some reason venture capitalists invest into software projects, not into poetry contest. And they kinda like market caps Smiley
People make plenty of money from song lyrics. Song writers are making plenty of money and contests could generate money. Venture capitalists don't invest in small scale software projects that could be funded by Devtome. And I don't see Devcoin replacing venture capitalists, that is delusional.
And higher market cap means that more people can get paid. So it makes sense to focus on high-impact projects first, and later expand the program to get more people involved.
We have enough software as it is. We need content. Just producing all this cool software isnt going to make people want to use it. What would napster be if there were no content? What about Bittorrent?


Please understand me correctly, I'm not against writers and artists. What I'm saying is that we need to get incentives right, i.e. to optimize for a thing we are optimizing.

Writers and artists are the producers of content. Content is why people want to use the Internet for anything other than work.

Let's say I go to devtome.com, what do I see? An ugly page with tonnes and tonnes of mess on it. It is hard to find anything.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the articles on Devtome. How much does a cookbook cost? But you can find recipes on Devtome for free. So you're saying people who share their recipes are suckers and should keep it a secret or sell it to a cookbook company instead? Devtome exists to promote the creative commons, and not everyone is a computer nerd.

Nobody is thinking about presentation because they are paid for writing words!
It's not the writers job to worry about the presentation.
Now, say, if Devtome was done right, its front page would be nicely organized. It should also be aesthetically pleasing, rather than using default theme.
I agree. Wikipedia works well and it could be like that. Honestly it could be better than Wikipedia if done right because people would get paid and quality could be much higher.
A visitor which gets to devtome front page should see general categories, features articles etc. Focus on content which is of high quality, is nicely organized etc. Sweep half-baked shit under the rug.
I cannot disagree with this.
So perhaps it can work if you writers get your shit together and make presentation nice. But "getting your shit together" isn't incentivized, only writing more and more words is. So nobody even bothered to take 5 minutes and think how site can be made more appealing.
Writers aren't website developers or the admin of the site. Why are you blaming stuff on the writers when writers have nothing to do with the design of Devtome?
This clearly demonstrates how incentives are important. It is rare for things to get done without incentive.

Now compare Devtome to http://bitcoinmagazine.com/ What's different?
I agree with you but blame it on the people responsible. Writers aren't paid to design Devtome.
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June 12, 2013, 10:40:15 AM
 #3377

Please ignore my post. I was looking at everyones profile starting with Owlsley and with all the crap going on got myself mixed up.

I can admit I made an error and do not mean to throw any ones character in a bad light. My apologies to any one I mentioned, apart from Owlsleytroll.



Lol.  Ditto.

I'm curious, we have lots of programmers and at least a hacker or two here.  I thought it was pretty easy to look someone's IP address up to see if there's multiple aliases coming from the same location.  That would be a dead giveaway.

Cookies work better than IP addresses. One cookie per machine and register it in a database.
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June 12, 2013, 10:58:22 AM
 #3378


So bitcoin is designed wrong?

Remember bitcoin too is designed to produce a constant number of coins for four years.

So until we hit four years we are no different. Since you don't think four years ahead is relevant what are you proposing, a pre-mined coin in which there is no inflation because the Tome owns all coins from block one and if anyone ever wants one they will have to get it from them?
I never said there should be no inflation. I'm saying inflation has to be controlled or adjusted on the fly so that the value in $ of the coin stays within a certain level while the coin is expanding. Once plenty of people are using the coin the inflation rate should decrease more and more until it reaches around 1-3% which is near the rate of population growth.

We always want more jobs than people so we have to limit inflation.
Or You want a instamine coin maybe, half the coins minted the first month, another quarter the second month, another eighth the third month and so on so that in siz months when the problems you expect come along there is already by then no inflation?

You sound like a bit of a nutbar frankly, no different from those who insist bitcoin will die because it does NOT make the same amount of coins forever, except you take the opposite position.
When did I ever said Bitcoin is going to die? Just because I don't have faith in Devcoin it does not mean I have no faith in Bitcoin. And I said nothing about a premine. Where are you getting this script from?
The reason the coin is going down in price is because it is being given out to opportunists who are no different from the miners whose opportunism was limited in DeVCoin by only giving them 10% of the coins.
So now you think the coin is going down because people aren't hoarding it? And you're claiming people who refuse to hoard it are opportunists? If you give something to someone or someone earns something from you then they can do anything with it that they want.

You have no right to judge other people by how they choose to use their coins. If the currency is designed right this shouldn't even matter.

Maybe a partial solution would be to only let 10% of the coins be written-for just like only 10% can be mined.
And why pick on writers? What about everyone else?

The best method you can think of to fix Devcoin is to somehow convince even less people to work for it? Basically too many people want to work so we gotta lower the hiring rate to fix the economy? This is starting to sound a lot like what is wrong with the global economy being imported into Devcoin. Let's lay people off and reduce their pay and call it austerity?

The point is, if Devcoin were designed to work there would be no crisis in the first place. Blame me for pointing out the crisis and calling for a hard fork. You can diagree with me or even ignore my warnings, and then deal with what happens 10 months to a year from now if Devcoin can even last that long.

Bitcoins have been going down too lately, have you noticed? Same reason: people dumping them. Maybe people are giving them all to asIC companies who are in turn turning them into fiat to buy parts or something, I don't know, but ultimately if the value goes down it traces back to people dumping.

That is the free market. People can pump and dump. I don't care what people do with their money. I know Bitcoins will be going up because the long term trend of Bitcoins is up and has been for years. I also know only 21 million will ever exist, unlike Devcoin where there seems to be no end to the dumping if the dumping starts because there is no cap. I'm not saying a cap is even necessary but the fact that there isn't one built in provides people with no psychological safety.
i read a mention earlier that we need people to buy things with devcoin, and was tempted to point out right there that actually a lot seems to depend on WHAT people buy, or maybe on WHERE/HOW they buy it.

The what/how part is because maybe buying fiat is not the core reason the value goes down, maybe the core reason is the fiat is being bought on a certain style of market. Maybe no matter what you buy if you buy it on that format/form of market you inevitably drive price down, because the players who play those markets earn their money by trying to make sure that you need to sell more and more for less and less to sell in volume and need to buy less and less for more and more in order to buy in any volume.

With Bitcoin I can see the big picture and can see how it can work. I can do things with Bitcoin that I cannot do with Paypal. There is no reason for me to believe I can do things with Devcoin that I cannot do with Bitcoin. The only thing Devcoin offers is receiver shares and Devtome. Until we can do more with it, it's utility is not enough that it will survive competition and no I'm not going to buy and hoard on it just to try to manipulate the market. If I have to take irrational charity courses of action to save this coin then it should be forked.
So writers are like miners, they will jump on each new instamined / insta-written-for coin, there will be a few new coins a day for a while, hmm are there still a few more each day right now, i haven't even bothered to watch, more useless crap blah blah blah. let them, once they have a few hundred wallets maybe they will look back and see writing for a hundred tomes a month is enough, they can afford to drop a couple hundred from their daily grind...

-MarkM-



Why is everyone blaming the writers? Do you think if writing were removed that Devcoin would suddenly become a success? I don't see how it would change anything. I think if you remove writers okay what about artists? What about podcasters? Or are you saying Devcoin is only for programmers?

If Devcoin is only for programmers then it will never be anything more than a coin for computer nerds because 90% of the human population are not programmers and even the majority of programmers aren't going to work for Devcoin when they can write their own coin which is better than Devcoin and become a hero to all the writers and artists.

Whether you like it or not, the Bitcoin community isn't going to be made up of computer nerds forever. If you ever want to bring women into the community and non-nerds, you have to allow these people to contribute and gain wealth too.



My disagreements are on economic, financial and rationality grounds and not for philiosophical reasons (although I suppose every and any view could be defined as philiosophical). I have bitcoins, like you and most here and sure I'd love bitcoin to work. But it won't. The primary reasons for this are that of replication and deflation.

I won't reiterate my thoughts there again ad nauseum, but I do think you need to flip your points around to the perspective of somebody who doesn't own Bitcoins worth $100 or ASICminer shares worth 2.5 BTC and ask why such an individual or group would purchase Bitcoin rather than an alternative, when Bitcoin does not satisfy most basic criteria of a currency.

I'm not a billionaire. I'm not even a millionaire. Some people in this world are millionaires and billionaires. So why would I want to work in the USA, and buy shares in Google when they are so much more expensive than they were during the IPO? Why would I want to work when so many people before me became millionaires and billionaires from less work or from other peoples work?

The reason is I'm not trying to be a billionaire and never expected to be. Nor do I ever expect to be a millionaire. All I want is to work hard and at the end of the year have more money than when I started. All I want is progress, advancement, whether it makes me rich or not is irrelevant.

People dislike inflation because it makes this goal impossible. You'll never have more purchasing power next year than you had this year when inflation is high. Under deflation on the other hand you will. As technology becomes more advanced we need an economy which is more deflationary because it's more efficient. Robots will be doing most of the work and there is no point in having the traditional notions of what money is. People who are late to transition into the new economy will not be the leaders of the new economy but it does not mean we should replicate the flaws of the old economy so that the leaders of the old economy can better get a grip on the new economy.

Bitcoin is not about to go mainstream, it can't go mainstream as is. The issue is similar to the debates on this forum about fractional reserve lending, credit etc - the question is not whether these things are possible with bitcoin, it's why applying rationality and choice anybody would utilise bitcoin for such purposes. They wouldn't. It would make no sense to do so.

Bitcoin is missing some infrastructure which keeps it from going mainstream but it is experiencing the network effect and just like Facebook did, it's going mainstream whether the infrastructure is ready or not. I agree with you it's not ready for it yet, but it's happening because there is nothing else and there tens of millions waiting to try Bitcoin who are ready but who for technical or infrastructure reasons cannot actually figure out how to buy a Bitcoin. Once buying them becomes as easy as going to an ATM or a Walmart then it's going to go from having a few million users to having 20-30 million users or what I'll call the Myspace phase of development. It will probably go up to 100 million users over the course of a few years. 100 million users does not seem like a lot because it really isn't, but it's enough that the market cap will be in the trillion dollar range in my opinion because thats 100 times the amount of users we have today and I do believe that is possible within 3-5 years. I predict a trillion dollar market cap, I admit this isn't a scientific prediction it's just speculation and based on a gut feeling that if Bitcoin reaches a critical mass of around 50-100 million users that it's market cap will explode along with that. It's very possible that it could be 100 million computer programmers and male nerds and then the market cap might not grow as much but if it's a diverse 100 million the market cap will explode and the price of Bitcoins along with it.

I appreciate we don't agree and I welcome your perspective as it's structured and thought through, but if Bitcoin does not address some very straightforward problems any objective observer has to conclude it's either an outright scam, or a slightly less scammy pyramid scheme, or suffers such inherent flaws that it's rendered useless for the purposes claimed, or at best a Bitcoin 2.0 will be along to correct the flaws.

This isn't true. The idea that superior technology always wins isn't true. Myspace was a superior technology to Facebook and it did not win. Facebook won and offered nothing that Myspace didn't have and Myspace had groups, features for musicians, etc. Facebook offered the network effect and because it managed to get over 100 million users before Myspace could, it won. Bitcoin offers the network effect and even if it has nothing else this alone will make it cool. When the people buying Bitcoins now are talking about about how they bought Bitcoins at $100 when everyone was calling it a ponzi scheme and a scam then those people who called it a ponzi scheme and scam wont have people listening to them anymore. People listen to success, and all Bitcoin has to do is make enough people millionaires and the network effect of that will make people buy Bitcoins even if just to invest.

And once they buy them to invest then they'll spend some of them on investments and financial products and services or on paying bills. The point is the network effect cannot be reversed. It couldn't be reversed with the Internet, or with social media, and it's not going to be reversed with cryptocurrencies.

Either way, each of those options means there is a significant probability of Bitcoin 1.0 having a future value of 0 beyond a niche group or facilitation mechanism.

The only thing it would take to make Bitcoin be mainstream is infrastructure. When a human being can live off Bitcoins, pay their bills, rent, buy food, and Bitcoins are easy to use and buy, then it's ready to go mainstream. Right now Kashmir Hill has tried to live of Bitcoin and found it's still not ready. When this test takes place again and they find out its ready, then these journalists will begin hyping Bitcoin.
The reason I persist with these points is because it bothers me to view a group that could be affecting real change in societal empowerment and subversion of state dictates (which are not all bad, but as we have little choice I have a problem with them) instead prefering to remain in their own bubble.

Remaining blinkered to the reality that just waiting for change and for society's economic, demographic and financial structures to mould themselves to Bitcoin's economics will not happen. Rather will result in the forces that saw the promise of Bitcoin gain some initial credence over broad monetary failings and inequities doing the same to Bitcoin's monetary failings and inequities and finding a better alternative. This is not a philosophical point, it's just the way the world works.

And this is where we disagree. I don't think Bitcoin will be stopped once the technology is set up where people can live off them. It's not there yet. There needs to be Bitcoin banks, ATMs, credit/debit cards, secure hardware based wallets, distributed exchanges, and jobs which pay in Bitcoins along with the ability to buy anything with Bitcoins.

These problems are being solved this year. Sometime in 2014 most of these problems will be solved. Then it's just a matter of scaling up.

Ethicoin has the same problem. Devcoin is also not perfect, but the unlimited blockchain actually fascilitates much more than Bitcoin. I'm not sure if this was technically ever intended as such beyond the payout equity element, but it is what it is. If it persists Devcoin should over time settle to a price that gives me the ability to buy some, pay a plumber, who pays his window cleaner, who pays to have his computer repaired ...etc... over the long-term with some certainty of forward value until somebody in that chain needs and transfers to fiat. Constant exchange. This will never be possible with Bitcoin as is.
You shouldn't have to buy them. You should be able to work for them. The reason Bitcoin isn't mainstream is because there isn't enough infrastructure set up for people so they can work for them. Coinbase is solving this problem, and Bitcoin banks and credit unions solve the other half. Coupons which give discounts to people using Bitcoin will promote demand.
So you are probably correct that Bitcoin works very well for those who already have some, provided they realise their gains before they become losses. Alternatively yes a Bitcoin could be worth anything in the future as a commodity traded between a niche group, but that's a significant gamble and waste of resources in the meantime. I attribute far greater value to a medium of exchange that could in the future increasingly eliminate the requirement for fiat transactions in the fee-based private and state financial system. So yes that's my gamble but I work on probability not prayers, and I think the probability that at some point there is better broad appreciation of workable economic reality > probability that an economically flawed and skewed system will subvert reality. I don't know whether that will be devcoin but it will be a similar 'inflationary' concept, because it has to be to compensate for world realities.

There will be other coins. Bitcoin does not have to be a niche coin either. When the exchange problem is solved then anyone who wants to can buy portions of Bitcoins at any time from any ATM or Walmart. When that happens it's all over for Paypal and that along would make Bitcoin mainstream. Go into Walmart and buy a Bitcoin debit card. Go to the Bitcoin ATM to turn Bitcoin into fiat and fiat into Bitcoin. Go to the Bitcoin credit union to get loans. Receive discoints, points and rewards for buying products and services with Bitcoins.

It's an easy choice for anyone to use Bitcoins when they can get sales.
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June 12, 2013, 11:34:39 AM
 #3379

Closed source software like games? Yeah that brings a lot of users and money. Open source software on the other hand does not.

Oh, you should tell that to id software. They made code of popular games like Doom and Quake open source. I guess they get no money.

It is even easier for online games: everything can be open source, but somebody needs to run server. The original developers will likely know how to do it in the best way.

Devcoin promotes free software and for this reason will have the same difficulty getting revenue from programming that it has from writing.

Do not talk about things you do not understand, OK? There are many companies with market cap measured in billions who offer free software.

Venture capitalists don't invest in small scale software projects that could be funded by Devtome.

They do, you just have no idea how it works. I work for a software startup, FYI, and I know a bit or two about this.


colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

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June 12, 2013, 11:39:10 AM
 #3380

Closed source software like games? Yeah that brings a lot of users and money. Open source software on the other hand does not.

Oh, you should tell that to id software. They made code of popular games like Doom and Quake open source. I guess they get no money.

It is even easier for online games: everything can be open source, but somebody needs to run server. The original developers will likely know how to do it in the best way.

Devcoin promotes free software and for this reason will have the same difficulty getting revenue from programming that it has from writing.

Do not talk about things you do not understand, OK? There are many companies with market cap measured in billions who offer free software.

Venture capitalists don't invest in small scale software projects that could be funded by Devtome.

They do, you just have no idea how it works. I work for a software startup, FYI, and I know a bit or two about this.



Count me in!  I would love to be part of the gaming startup with Devcoin
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