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Author Topic: Devcoin  (Read 369408 times)
markm
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May 27, 2013, 04:35:52 PM
 #2921

Can the developer please complement on this? If you say it's a 21 billion cap, then why does the source code have no limit?

It is not a cap, it is a limit on the total any one 64 bit integer variable is allowed to have, so that we do not blow out the limits of what can be stored in 64 bits. That is all.

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May 27, 2013, 04:43:46 PM
 #2922

Hello,

It has been brought to my attention that http://devcoin.org/ is linking people to the old windows bundle and download, not the really good uptodate current ones that twobit has done.

These NEED to be changed as a matter of urgency as devcoin has taken off and everyone needs to be using the one click install clients that twobits has spent much time doing so well.

Many thanks

FuzzyBear

Which one should be used now? The one I have is from December 4th, 2012. It is 0.3.24-BETA and still has the "Bitcoin" logo, name in the title bar and name in the "Information" popup.

I'm on Windows and just downloaded this a few days ago.
if you're using the wallet or have given address out for anything important, remember to copy wallet.dat before you delete old version
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129563.msg2163599#msg2163599

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ranlo
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May 27, 2013, 04:48:10 PM
 #2923

Hello,

It has been brought to my attention that http://devcoin.org/ is linking people to the old windows bundle and download, not the really good uptodate current ones that twobit has done.

These NEED to be changed as a matter of urgency as devcoin has taken off and everyone needs to be using the one click install clients that twobits has spent much time doing so well.

Many thanks

FuzzyBear

Which one should be used now? The one I have is from December 4th, 2012. It is 0.3.24-BETA and still has the "Bitcoin" logo, name in the title bar and name in the "Information" popup.

I'm on Windows and just downloaded this a few days ago.
if you're using the wallet or have given address out for anything important, remember to copy wallet.dat before you delete old version
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129563.msg2163599#msg2163599

Thanks! When I installed the new version it read the other wallet file just fine without having to delete anything.

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weisoq
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May 27, 2013, 05:00:04 PM
 #2924

Thanks! When I installed the new version it read the other wallet file just fine without having to delete anything.
Cool. Somebody previously managed to lose theirs in a cut, paste, overwrite mashup somehow, so just had to check.

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Vlad2Vlad
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May 27, 2013, 05:14:26 PM
 #2925



Spoken (and thought out) like a real 'murican!

Spoken like a truly uneducated ignorant soft hearted liberal.

If devcoin pays third world country writers and programmers, whose cost of living is 1/10th below 1st world countries such as the US, Germany, France, etc, the same amount as first world contributors what do you think will happen in under 6 months?  It's a simple math problem a child could solve.  The shares will shrink to the point where first world contributors will get something like what a 3rd world contributor should get, $300 to $500 per month.

And at that point how many people in the best educated countries, like America and Germany do you think will continue to work and contribute to devcoin?  That's right, maybe 1/10th, and which 1/10th?  The lower 1/10th which arguably have the least amount of talent which means the content which devcoin puts out will degrade in a swift, violent manner and in correlation with the decline in share value.  

It's a statistical fact that an American programmer can produce at a rate of 5-10 times of an Indian programmer, which by the way are excellent programmers, as I have friends who are pro programmers and they say this is the only reason they still have jobs.  And if the average wage in those countries is $150 why would an ignorant fellow like yourself get offended if I say we should pay them extra, $300-$500?

And I am no Morico, I am Romanian and I would gladly and joyfully love to see my fellow brothers there make that much money from their computers at home.  But if this is not done with some brains (and educated thought) devcoin will quickly lose its best and most productive talent, especially programmers and English writers, which coincidentally, and FACTUALLY, live in first world countries where the education is hands down the best money can buy.

This lesson is on me.  You're welcome.

Regards,

Vlad

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May 27, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
 #2926

Thanks! When I installed the new version it read the other wallet file just fine without having to delete anything.
Cool. Somebody previously managed to lose theirs in a cut, paste, overwrite mashup somehow, so just had to check.

I was the one who lost 1,000,000 devcoins in a cut and paste mistake.  DO NOT ever cut and paste anything to do with your wallet.  Do NOT ever delete anything from your wallet no matter how small the file is.  CUTTING deletes the smaller .dat files which for some reason stay open and thus cannot be transferred.

But I too installed the new client with marticps' new green D design and when you install a new client it doesn't hurt your old wallet.  So anybody who has the old client with the Bitcoin logo up top you're missing out on a much better client, where you can encrypt your wallet. 

So install this new verision and it doesn't matter if it's 32 bits per twobits I think it was, it will work fine on 64bit windows and macs as my computers are 64 bit and I've had no issues. 

You'll know you have the new client by the new gree Atari looking D in the upper left hand corner.

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May 27, 2013, 05:28:32 PM
 #2927

Is Devcoin going keep creating coins forever? Why's there no limit despite there being a mentioning of one in earlier versions? How can we create value if there's just an unlimited supply pumping out?

90% of the coins pumped out go to support development of free open source stuff.

As long as that stuff ends up worth something, surely value is being created?

-MarkM-



Mark, you are right but one has to keep in mind many of these developers need the money which is the reason they get this generous help from devcoin so they in turn will sell these coins, at least a portion of them.

It's a simple supply and demand equation here, just like in stocks and other fiat currencies, the more you  print the more worthless it will eventually become. 

This has been a slow effect with devcoin as it has been generous in spreading the wealth around which is good because there's no coin out there that has such a global audience.

But there has to be a limit or eventually devcoin will simply lose all of its value.  The dollar is backed by a central bank, the most powerful military the world has ever seen and supposedly massive amounts of gold and it has, thus far, since 1933, lost 97% of its value because of excessive printing.  Devcoin is not backed by anything, much like the Euro I might add.  Therefore, It is only a matter of time before constant printing of devcoins will take the value farther and farther towards absolute zero. 

In the short run I understand the need to print more devcoins but there must be a long-term plan if devcoin is to survive.

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May 27, 2013, 06:11:52 PM
 #2928

I don't want to be completely boring here but no, fiat currencies are backed by debt. You mean 1913 I guess but the 97% meme is nonsense really, a dollar has to be spent on something not put under a mattress for 100 years. For example since 1913 a dollar put into stocks has outperformed a dollar put into the equivalent of a constant maturity US government 10 year bond, which has in turn actually outperformed a dollar put into gold. Point is it’s not about printing, but backing (edit: at least until 2010 when I had to check that for myself, probably still true).

The supply/demand point - of course, but where is the intersection between supply and demand in an electronic currency with a limited supply, a replicable blockchain and resulting deflation and rising real interest rates. I think at best one sees evolution into niche currencies for niche groups or demographics, at worst price tends towards 0. But an electronic currency with a steady yet forecastable supply, a community of supporters, users, real loans may evolve into an actual transaction means and facilitates forward economic value through stability once a clearing value is found following increasing take-up. Scarcity only works if it's genuine, not if it's replicable.

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May 27, 2013, 06:16:24 PM
 #2929

Bitcoin Town!!!!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216139.0

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May 27, 2013, 06:31:06 PM
 #2930

To writers: how much do you get paid per word, on average for writing on devtome? How often do you get paid? Just to get an idea.

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May 27, 2013, 06:36:21 PM
 #2931

To writers: how much do you get paid per word, on average for writing on devtome? How often do you get paid? Just to get an idea.

This past round each share was over 300,000 coins.

If everyone is thinking outside the box, there is a new box.
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May 27, 2013, 06:37:31 PM
 #2932

No replies, so I just went ahead and updated to the "experimental" version on devcoin.org.

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weisoq
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May 27, 2013, 06:51:01 PM
 #2933

To writers: how much do you get paid per word, on average for writing on devtome? How often do you get paid? Just to get an idea.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34586.msg1890430#msg1890430
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The coins per share is 180 million divided by the number of shares. In round 21 there were 29 shares, so each share was worth 180,000,000 dvc / 29 = 6,206,897 dvc, at the prices of the time that was 500$:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34586.msg1640919;topicseen#msg1640919

In round 22 there were 125 receiver lines, so the average generation share was worth 180,000,000 dvc / 125 = 1,440,000 dvc, at the prices of the time that was 198$:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34586.msg1815405;topicseen#msg1815405

In round 23 there were 501 receiver lines, so the average number of devcoins per share is 180,000,000 dvc / 501 = 359,281 dvc, at the prices of the time that was 76$:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34586.msg2226293#msg2226293

I don't know how many shares there will be in round 24 until they're calculated, around June 10. Since there are more writers now than there were in round 23, there will almost certainly be more shares. If for example there are 900 shares in round 24, each share would be 180,000,000 dvc / 900 = 200,000 dvc.

While the number of shares varies a lot, their dollar value stays in a narrower range because if the value goes high, many new writers will join, diluting the share in the next round. If the value goes down, some authors won't bother writing, reducing the number of shares next round. Devcoin shares have varied between 50$ and 500$. When the shares were worth 50$, usually only Mark and I wrote. When the shares were worth 500$ in round 21, the next round there were twelve writers.

To a small extent it also works the other way, if a lot of authors write, devtome will be more popular and investors will bid devcoin up a bit.

The value of the share can not be guaranteed, but for the next few months it looks like it will be over 150$ 50$.

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Vlad2Vlad
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May 27, 2013, 06:58:23 PM
 #2934

I don't want to be completely boring here but no, fiat currencies are backed by debt. You mean 1913 I guess but the 97% meme is nonsense really, a dollar has to be spent on something not put under a mattress for 100 years. For example since 1913 a dollar put into stocks has outperformed a dollar put into the equivalent of a constant maturity US government 10 year bond, which has in turn actually outperformed a dollar put into gold. Point is it’s not about printing, but backing (edit: at least until 2010 when I had to check that for myself, probably still true).

The supply/demand point - of course, but where is the intersection between supply and demand in an electronic currency with a limited supply, a replicable blockchain and resulting deflation and rising real interest rates. I think at best one sees evolution into niche currencies for niche groups or demographics, at worst price tends towards 0. But an electronic currency with a steady yet forecastable supply, a community of supporters, users, real loans may evolve into an actual transaction means and facilitates forward economic value through stability once a clearing value is found following increasing take-up. Scarcity only works if it's genuine, not if it's replicable.

Absolutely untrue. In 1933 we went off the gold standard (partially) at which point it was illegal to own gold until 1979. In 1971 Nixon took us completely off the gold standard.

The fact you're throwing stocks and gold only muddies the water. Stocks, Gold, houses, etc are real assets and thus rise with inflation. Gold and houses are at 0% growth, they have kept up cent for cent with inflation while stocks, as you point out have outperformed and that's because stocks unlike houses and especially gold grow on their own.

But all of This has zero to do with fiat currencies.  Zero to do with the absolute FACT the dollar is down 97% since 1933.

So your answer is to spend every DEVcoin, like every dollar, the moment you get it to keep it from going to zero, at least for yourself. Is that what you're doing with all your devcoins? I'm keeping all mine and if your answer to inflation and devaluation is to call savers stupid for now having only 3 cents for every 1933 $1 dollar that's not exactly a good argument in favor of fiat currencies.

I'm not talking out of my ass here, this isn't opinion, it's history and economic facts. I have a 3.8 GPA degree in Econ and another in Finance. I invite rebuttals but at least do a little research.

With the exception of temporary exuberance where demand can temporarily outstrip supply and then you may get a ridiculous and temporary increase in value like you now see in bitcoin, fiat currencies which are not backed by anything, which includes ALL crypto-currencies, if printing continues ad nauseum, even one with earnings like Apple's would eventually and absolutely approach zero towards infinity, let alone one with little or no earnings.

What I am telling you is as sure and proven as the law of gravity.

Regards,

Vlad

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May 27, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
 #2935

Perhaps its time to clone devcoin with reduced % going to developer Smiley


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May 27, 2013, 07:07:04 PM
 #2936

Perhaps its time to clone devcoin with reduced % going to developer Smiley



This is a complex situation and I'm not sure that's the best answer, at least not in the short term.

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May 27, 2013, 07:33:49 PM
 #2937

...Vlad
My facts are correct, it's also my experience and job to know them. You're inferring a lot about my economic and rationality viewpoint from statements that stake no such claim. My point was in relation to devcoin, bitcoin, crytocurrencies and what I believe are misunderstandings and mis-pricings. I don't want to hog this thread but we have quite different perspectives. I'm looking for solutions and progress not a pseudo goldbugish view that is creeping into the bitcoin world. This will be its undoing if it persists, but if you can find evidence to dispute what I'm saying in relation to cryptos and deflation I'd be interested to hear it via pm.

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May 27, 2013, 07:53:46 PM
 #2938

...Vlad
My facts are correct, it's also my experience and job to know them. You're inferring a lot about my economic and rationality viewpoint from statements that stake no such claim. My point was in relation to devcoin, bitcoin, crytocurrencies and what I believe are misunderstandings and mis-pricings. I don't want to hog this thread but we have quite different perspectives. I'm looking for solutions and progress not a pseudo goldbugish view that is creeping into the bitcoin world. This will be its undoing if it persists, but if you can find evidence to dispute what I'm saying in relation to cryptos and deflation I'd be interested to hear it via pm.

WeisoQ, I see your points and I agree.  Check your inbox.

Good luck.


Edit:  I wanna add a few important and relevant points about the value of fiat currencies, for anyone who followed the economics exchange between weisoq and myself.  He is looking at money from a practical point of view which is in a way correct as 99% of people do buy assets with their money so then who cares if the dollar has lost 97% of its value.  I'm being more scientific and textbook about it which has its place as well.

That said, I want to quickly add that fiat money is driven by a lot more than supply and demand.  Money behaves a lot like the laws of physics.  It has inertia, velocity, speed, rate of change, turnover rate, etc., which, the latter, is increased by velocity.  That said, the current dilution is only one factor and the good part is that it is a linear factor.  

While the other factors at play which have an upward pressure on a fiat currency's price or value such as awareness, adoption rate which lead to a much higher velocity of fiat money (devcoin) and in turn should lead to a much higher turnover rate and all of these upward pressure variables are starting manifest and soon these factors should see exponential growth and I think it will soon, within months, turn to logarithmic growth by a factor of 10 or more.  So then the upward pressures (such as increased demand, velocity and turnover rate) should soon be obvious on the value of devcoin (and a few other coins) and should far outweigh the downward pressures which may be dilution or constant selling by miners.  

And if that holds true we should see a large to potentially enormous upward pressure on devcoin and a number of other coins.  I hope this turns out the way I see it since I do plan to hold all my devcoins for at least 1 year.

Good luck to everyone and thanks for the exchange, weisoq.

Regards,

Vlad

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May 28, 2013, 05:30:12 AM
 #2939

Is Devcoin going keep creating coins forever? Why's there no limit despite there being a mentioning of one in earlier versions? How can we create value if there's just an unlimited supply pumping out?

90% of the coins pumped out go to support development of free open source stuff.

As long as that stuff ends up worth something, surely value is being created?

-MarkM-



Mark, you are right but one has to keep in mind many of these developers need the money which is the reason they get this generous help from devcoin so they in turn will sell these coins, at least a portion of them.

It's a simple supply and demand equation here, just like in stocks and other fiat currencies, the more you  print the more worthless it will eventually become. 

This has been a slow effect with devcoin as it has been generous in spreading the wealth around which is good because there's no coin out there that has such a global audience.

But there has to be a limit or eventually devcoin will simply lose all of its value.  The dollar is backed by a central bank, the most powerful military the world has ever seen and supposedly massive amounts of gold and it has, thus far, since 1933, lost 97% of its value because of excessive printing.  Devcoin is not backed by anything, much like the Euro I might add.  Therefore, It is only a matter of time before constant printing of devcoins will take the value farther and farther towards absolute zero. 

In the short run I understand the need to print more devcoins but there must be a long-term plan if devcoin is to survive.

Devcoin is not a currency. Devcoins are tokens so that is a problem with them calling it a coin when it's a token.

Quote
A token economy is a system of behavior modification based on the systematic reinforcement of target behavior. The reinforcers are symbols or tokens that can be exchanged for other reinforcers. Token economy is based on the principles of operant conditioning and can be situated within applied behavior analysis (behaviorism). In applied settings token economies are applied with children and adults, but they have been modeled with pigeons in lab settings.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_economy

Devcoins don't have any real value other than to be used as some token to represent the labor. Honestly we could work for Bitcoins instead but Bitcoin isn't focusing on that right now so there is Devcoin. Devcoin is not something to invest into as a commodity and it's not a currency that you should save or spend. It's a transitory or transient token which the moment you get must be traded in for the actual payment in the form of Bitcoin. Devcoin will never make it as a currency and will always be a token system because that is what the creators call it and the fact that you can have an infinite amount of worthless tokens in the same way you can have an infinite amount of time cards. It's the shares and the generation process that matters and from what I can see that process seems to function independently to the amount of coins that exist in total.

I think the solution to this problem would probably be to set the tokens to self destruct after X amount of time. Devcoins can be created infinitely but old coins which aren't traded in for Bitcoin should expire and we should probably treat it like coupons. I did X amount of work, wrote Y amount of words, I get a coupon worth Z amount of shares, and there has to be some volatility to the process but since there is no 21 billion cap and it's infinite the math would indicate that at some point no one will buy Devcoins for any investment or speculation, and it probably does not make sense to do so now, which is why the price is so low. But it does make sense to work for Devcoins and provided that the amount you get is modulated and adjusted, the fact that infinitely many get produced wont matter.

What I mean to say is, if there is 21 billion that exist then the jobs will be paying tens to hundreds of millions of Devcoins. All that changes is the decimal places and the amount per share. Honestly I don't know why they made this decision of infinite inflation, because from a marketing perspective it's keeping many people away from Devcoin who need to be using it. It kept me away from buying it, but I don't mind earning some provided that I can trade them in nearly instantaneously. Basically the only purpose behind them is to let people work and feel like they earned a billion coins or something, but the truth is people work for dollar amounts not coins and the amount of coins will be based on what people are willing to accept. No one is going to accept anything which isn't a fair amount in a free market, at least right now. When the market becomes more global that is when Devcoins will become worthless to many people because the price of the labor once again will be the minimum that anyone in the world will work for.

Devcoin is fine for now but I suspect at some point there will be competitors.
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May 28, 2013, 05:41:54 AM
 #2940

Is Devcoin going keep creating coins forever? Why's there no limit despite there being a mentioning of one in earlier versions? How can we create value if there's just an unlimited supply pumping out?

90% of the coins pumped out go to support development of free open source stuff.

As long as that stuff ends up worth something, surely value is being created?

-MarkM-



Mark, you are right but one has to keep in mind many of these developers need the money which is the reason they get this generous help from devcoin so they in turn will sell these coins, at least a portion of them.

It's a simple supply and demand equation here, just like in stocks and other fiat currencies, the more you  print the more worthless it will eventually become.  

This has been a slow effect with devcoin as it has been generous in spreading the wealth around which is good because there's no coin out there that has such a global audience.

But there has to be a limit or eventually devcoin will simply lose all of its value.  The dollar is backed by a central bank, the most powerful military the world has ever seen and supposedly massive amounts of gold and it has, thus far, since 1933, lost 97% of its value because of excessive printing.  Devcoin is not backed by anything, much like the Euro I might add.  Therefore, It is only a matter of time before constant printing of devcoins will take the value farther and farther towards absolute zero.  

In the short run I understand the need to print more devcoins but there must be a long-term plan if devcoin is to survive.

Devcoin is not a currency. Devcoins are tokens so that is a problem with them calling it a coin when it's a token.

Quote
A token economy is a system of behavior modification based on the systematic reinforcement of target behavior. The reinforcers are symbols or tokens that can be exchanged for other reinforcers. Token economy is based on the principles of operant conditioning and can be situated within applied behavior analysis (behaviorism). In applied settings token economies are applied with children and adults, but they have been modeled with pigeons in lab settings.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_economy

Devcoins don't have any real value other than to be used as some token to represent the labor. Honestly we could work for Bitcoins instead but Bitcoin isn't focusing on that right now so there is Devcoin. Devcoin is not something to invest into as a commodity and it's not a currency that you should save or spend. It's a transitory or transient token which the moment you get must be traded in for the actual payment in the form of Bitcoin. Devcoin will never make it as a currency and will always be a token system because that is what the creators call it and the fact that you can have an infinite amount of worthless tokens in the same way you can have an infinite amount of time cards. It's the shares and the generation process that matters and from what I can see that process seems to function independently to the amount of coins that exist in total.

I think the solution to this problem would probably be to set the tokens to self destruct after X amount of time. Devcoins can be created infinitely but old coins which aren't traded in for Bitcoin should expire and we should probably treat it like coupons. I did X amount of work, wrote Y amount of words, I get a coupon worth Z amount of shares, and there has to be some volatility to the process but since there is no 21 billion cap and it's infinite the math would indicate that at some point no one will buy Devcoins for any investment or speculation, and it probably does not make sense to do so now, which is why the price is so low. But it does make sense to work for Devcoins and provided that the amount you get is modulated and adjusted, the fact that infinitely many get produced wont matter.

What I mean to say is, if there is 21 billion that exist then the jobs will be paying tens to hundreds of millions of Devcoins. All that changes is the decimal places and the amount per share. Honestly I don't know why they made this decision of infinite inflation, because from a marketing perspective it's keeping many people away from Devcoin who need to be using it. It kept me away from buying it, but I don't mind earning some provided that I can trade them in nearly instantaneously. Basically the only purpose behind them is to let people work and feel like they earned a billion coins or something, but the truth is people work for dollar amounts not coins and the amount of coins will be based on what people are willing to accept. No one is going to accept anything which isn't a fair amount in a free market, at least right now. When the market becomes more global that is when Devcoins will become worthless to many people because the price of the labor once again will be the minimum that anyone in the world will work for.

Devcoin is fine for now but I suspect at some point there will be competitors.


Incredibly interesting and thought provoking take.  I've never thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense when you consider it a token.  I also fully agree with your conclusion, and also something must be done about the infinite print protocol in place now or else devcoin is doomed.  And unless devcoin is simply a stepping stone for some people then I'd suggest something be put in place soon before competition heats up and I expect that to happen very rapidly.

Luckybit, may I ask what you do or what you went to school for?  Cause I'm  impressed with your very different and insightful point of view.  TIA

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