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Author Topic: Devcoin  (Read 369108 times)
marticps
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June 09, 2013, 08:39:02 PM
 #3241

Well atm I can't work on it because I am on exam period. In a week more or less I can start working...

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killerstorm
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June 09, 2013, 09:43:41 PM
 #3242

The problems with Devcoin are with the math behind it. There is infinitely many Devcoins but finite shares and a decreasing share value over time.

Monetary base supply isn't really a problem: inflation slows down with time, so that eventually it will be negligible.

The flaw with Devcoin is because there is infinitely many it's so inflationary that you cannot save your Devcoins from work you did months ago so that you can be competitive with workers 10 months from now, but instead 10 months from now you'll have to work even harder for even less coins?

Well, the idea was that more shares are allocated once Devcoins get more and more valuable. So basically as more and more people start using Devcoin it gets more valuable and allows more people to work for Devcoin bounties.

What is broken is Devtome bounty allocation.

I'll remind you that the idea was to do projects which will increase demand for Devcoins, thus also increasing the market cap.

But Devtome bounties are paid for words, and they are not tied to market cap in any way. So we have a case of perverted incentive. Devtome leeches value off Devcoin without giving anything in return.

So I don't think Devcoin needs anything like hard fork... Just some accountability. Stop paying bounties for failed projects.

If anything I'd say that it makes sense to finance variety of smaller projects than to sink it into a huge one which might or might not be successful.

Another problem is lack of decentralization in management. Unthinkingbit manages both Devcoin itself and also he manages Devtome. The problem with it is that person cannot be critical to himself, so no matter whether he does great or shitty job maintaining Devtome, he will just follow his vision.

Instead imagine that Devtome was managed by other person, and Unthinkingbit's duty would be to allocate bounties according to project usefulness. Now hypothetical manager of Devtome will be interested in achieving usefulness, and he will likely try various things... If he doesn't do a great job, he can be replaced and other person has a chance to apply his ideas. Eventually control will get to a person who actually has some great idea to make project useful.

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jasinlee
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June 09, 2013, 10:28:31 PM
 #3243

Um me and about 8 others manage devtome. And unthinkingbit does weed out useless projects. The only things he regularly does is correct errors on the site. Moving pages where they need to be or policing. But that is about a hundredth of the things done on the site.

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Luckybit
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June 10, 2013, 01:09:26 AM
 #3244

The problems with Devcoin are with the math behind it. There is infinitely many Devcoins but finite shares and a decreasing share value over time.

Monetary base supply isn't really a problem: inflation slows down with time, so that eventually it will be negligible.

Inflation slows down because more people use it faster than it generates but it wont slow down fast enough, and it also means less money for those who do use it under the current math.  I just don't see it working.

Well, the idea was that more shares are allocated once Devcoins get more and more valuable. So basically as more and more people start using Devcoin it gets more valuable and allows more people to work for Devcoin bounties.
So why aren't Devcoins getting more valuable? More people are using Devcoins than ever.

What is broken is Devtome bounty allocation.

I'll remind you that the idea was to do projects which will increase demand for Devcoins, thus also increasing the market cap.

One problem which I mention is that all words cannot be sold for the same price. Writing in english costs more to produce than other languages due to the high cost of living in these countries. Right now all Devcoin words are priced alike. Then you have the various different dialects and subcultures which bring even greater value to words and you'll see that eventually unless something changes all of this will be lost and we will have many articles written in foreign english.

But Devtome bounties are paid for words, and they are not tied to market cap in any way. So we have a case of perverted incentive. Devtome leeches value off Devcoin without giving anything in return.
I think you don't understand what Devtome is trying to do. I'm not saying they get it right, but it's critical. There are more writers available than just about any other kind of worker so monetizing writing is an excellent way to grow market cap. The problem isn't that Devtome is offering nothing in return, go read some of the articles and you see it does offer something. The problem is the math is unsustainable, if the growth of Devtome actually somehow is making Devcoin and the shares less valuable then it's going exactly backwards. The more people write and work for Devtome the less valuable writing and working for Devtome becomes and it seems to do nothing to improve the value of Devcoins.

The only way it would be able to improve the value for Devcoins is to literally charge people per article per view. But that approach would be undesirable on a philosophical level and unsustainable as well because once again there are infinitely many Devcoins and the inflation rate is just too high. Maybe if they set it nice and low this wouldn't have been a problem.

So I don't think Devcoin needs anything like hard fork... Just some accountability. Stop paying bounties for failed projects.
I agree it needs to stop paying for failed projects but I still think it needs a hard fork. I'm not the only one who thinks Devcoin messed up in the design phase.

If anything I'd say that it makes sense to finance variety of smaller projects than to sink it into a huge one which might or might not be successful.

Another problem is lack of decentralization in management. Unthinkingbit manages both Devcoin itself and also he manages Devtome. The problem with it is that person cannot be critical to himself, so no matter whether he does great or shitty job maintaining Devtome, he will just follow his vision.

I agree with this. But I would like Unthinkingbit to consider doing a hard fork to save Devcoin and Devtome because I think both are critically important to the success of Bitcoin. I think Bitcoins will never become popular until anyone can find a Bitcoin job. Since almost anyone can write it's a good place to start.

Instead imagine that Devtome was managed by other person, and Unthinkingbit's duty would be to allocate bounties according to project usefulness. Now hypothetical manager of Devtome will be interested in achieving usefulness, and he will likely try various things... If he doesn't do a great job, he can be replaced and other person has a chance to apply his ideas. Eventually control will get to a person who actually has some great idea to make project useful.

The problem with Devtome isn't that the articles aren't useful. I've read some of them and the majority seem to be pretty useful. The quality is also pretty good at this time. The problem is I don't see how this can be sustained if the profit pie keeps shrinking. There will be no incentive to produce quality when the share value goes down.

Something has to be fixed so that the share value can go up and down but there must be a minimum value for words in english, a minimum for words in spanish and so on. Eventually if Devcoin does become more valuable the minimum value would raise for all words if Devcoin were truly deflationary.
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June 10, 2013, 06:42:46 AM
 #3245

Is Vircurex down?

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June 10, 2013, 06:45:13 AM
 #3246


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killerstorm
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June 10, 2013, 12:56:26 PM
 #3247

So why aren't Devcoins getting more valuable? More people are using Devcoins than ever.

Well, I was talking about demand for Devcoins. I.e. money entering the Devcoin economy.

For example, if Devtome was a successful project, it would generate income from ads displayed on its pages. This money would enter Devcoin economy as Devtome will buy Devcoins to pay writers, and it will increase demand for Devcoin.

Another example would be a game which uses Devcoin as a game currency. People will buy Devcoins to play this game.

Also it can be a project like prediction market...

In any case, to make a dent you need some sizeable revenue in Devcoins... At least $10,000/month, I think.

If people just get Devcoins for writing, it doesn't add any demand... Worse than that, it probably increases supply (because previously Devcoins were earned by hardcore enthusiasts, but now people just earn them and cash out), which makes them less valuable.

Which is what we see, right?

One problem which I mention is that all words cannot be sold for the same price.

Let's start with the fact that it doesn't make sense to buy words. They are all in dictionary.

It makes sense to pay for results, not for words.

Writing in english costs more to produce than other languages due to the high cost of living in these countries.

It doesn't matter much...  English ads pay more too... Also there is a plenty of people who know English all around the world.

FYI I'm from Ukraine. Do you find my English incomprehensible?


I think you don't understand what Devtome is trying to do.

Here's all I need to know: http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#history

Quote
Since pure charity didn't work, devcoin was changed to a beneficial organization, similar in concept to a benefit corporation. Devcoin would primarily fund open source projects whose revenue would be converted to devcoins, and secondarily fund open source developers with no expectation of future revenue. This has been successful, and at the time of this writing in August 18, 2012, the devcoin market capitalization is about 0.00000140 BTC/DVC * 2,720,400,000 DVC = 3,809 BTC, of which 90% * 3,809 BTC = 3,428 BTC went to developers. The first open source revenue project is devtome, whose potential advertising revenue is small but growing.

In other document it says that Devtome is supposed to get 90% of total bounties. Which means that Devtome is supposed to be a cash cow.

There are more writers available than just about any other kind of worker so monetizing writing is an excellent way to grow market cap.

This is bullshit, we shouldn't measure availability of workers, we should measure prospects of revenue.

Content farming is a very competitive business and it's very hard to get any profit off it.

An excellent way to grow market cap would be a killer app. A service which will be in high demand.

As far as I know, we don't have any proper cryptocurrency-based prediction market yet, so if somebody would launch a prediction market which works only with Devcoins, a lot of people will buy considerable amounts of Devcoin to play on it.


The problem isn't that Devtome is offering nothing in return, go read some of the articles and you see it does offer something. The problem is the math is unsustainable,

Well, "math is unsustainable" because it isn't working according to the original intent. The point was not to grow number of writers, it was to grow number of readers. And it is not easy because there are insane amounts of content on the web, so chances that somebody will go to devtome for content are low.

It can only work if you offer some unique content in some niche, so you'll get plenty of returning users and viral marketing...

So again, you need to understand that number of writers is irrelevant. Just one talented writer can make unique content which would attract millions of readers. So number of writers does not help devtome/devcoin.

if the growth of Devtome actually somehow is making Devcoin and the shares less valuable then it's going exactly backwards.

Yes, if you target growth of number of writers. But if you read the original intent, it was actually about the growth of revenue.

The only way it would be able to improve the value for Devcoins is to literally charge people per article per view.

There are better ways to do it.

But that approach would be undesirable on a philosophical level

Please re-read the article about Devcoin and come back. Where does it say that it will pay to everyone? What kind of shitty philosophy?

Particularly, you should read how it works for developers: http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#developer
As you see, is rather hard to get your project financed by Devcoin, even if you write code.

Quote
Devcoins are granted only for good accomplishments.  ... They are not deserved or given for lines of code or hours of work.

That was the original philosophy... Pay-per-word you see on devtome exists just because it was easier to manage.

and unsustainable as well because once again there are infinitely many Devcoins and the inflation rate is just too high.

As a mathematician (M. Sc. in applied math) I can tell you that it is NOT a problem. Asymptotically, we're going to have zero (monetary base) inflation in the long term. If you take into account that some coins are lost, inflation will be negative.

In the short term... Let's say Devcoin exists for two years. It will take two years to double the monetary base. Don't you think we can double demand for Devcoin in two years?

When Devcoin will be 10 years old, per-year inflation will be ~10%. Let's assume that there is no extra demand... 10% inflation is bad if you want to keep savings in this currency. But if you wage goes from $50/hour to $45/hour in a year, it is tolerable.

But do you seriously think that demand cannot grow at 10% per year rate in 10 years?

Do you think that, say, 1% per year growth is better? That doesn't make much sense because at start growth is high, but it slows down...

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ashleysly
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June 10, 2013, 01:39:13 PM
 #3248

This thread is getting to bit to navigate and read it all. Why not have all these conversations over at the Devcoin forums? http://devcointalk.org

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June 10, 2013, 03:34:45 PM
 #3249

How do I mine Devcoins on a laptop?
Please help here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230888.0

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Vlad2Vlad
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June 10, 2013, 04:18:00 PM
 #3250

How do I mine Devcoins on a laptop?
Please help here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230888.0

You need powerful GPUs.  I doubt you'll cover the cost of electricity with a laptop, but those who have actually mined them can clarify.  I haven't tried, after doing research I didn't bother.  But I do have ASICS on order and then it will be worth mining devcoins.

BTW:  that's one scary coin you put up.  Interesting, the same thing crossed my mind.  I wonder how many people think devcoin stands for devil coin?  Lol.

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June 10, 2013, 04:29:45 PM
 #3251

How do I mine Devcoins on a laptop?
Please help here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230888.0

You need powerful GPUs.  I doubt you'll cover the cost of electricity with a laptop, but those who have actually mined them can clarify.  I haven't tried, after doing research I didn't bother.  But I do have ASICS on order and then it will be worth mining devcoins.

BTW:  that's one scary coin you put up.  Interesting, the same thing crossed my mind.  I wonder how many people think devcoin stands for devil coin?  Lol.

I just want to learn to mine, I am not worried about covering costs, I can do that through Devtome.

And I was just playing with an online photoshop, I've been on such a shitty computer for so long that I just needed to try it out. One of my visiting family members got me a new laptop.

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shakezula
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June 10, 2013, 04:38:01 PM
 #3252

Fin, you're way better off mining a CPU style coin and exchanging it for DVC. Check out BBQ, MNC, or YAC, all pretty easy to mine with a CPU and you can convert them in to DVC at Cryptsy or VirCurEx or MCXNow.

I'm not kidding when I say mining SHA256 will kill your laptop while not earning you anything whatsoever.
FinShaggy
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June 10, 2013, 04:43:01 PM
 #3253

Fin, you're way better off mining a CPU style coin and exchanging it for DVC. Check out BBQ, MNC, or YAC, all pretty easy to mine with a CPU and you can convert them in to DVC at Cryptsy or VirCurEx or MCXNow.

I'm not kidding when I say mining SHA256 will kill your laptop while not earning you anything whatsoever.

Ok, cool. Then how do I mine... BBQ coin.

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June 10, 2013, 05:03:26 PM
 #3254

Fin, you're way better off mining a CPU style coin and exchanging it for DVC. Check out BBQ, MNC, or YAC, all pretty easy to mine with a CPU and you can convert them in to DVC at Cryptsy or VirCurEx or MCXNow.

I'm not kidding when I say mining SHA256 will kill your laptop while not earning you anything whatsoever.

Ok, cool. Then how do I mine... BBQ coin.

Ditto.  I've tried but can't find a good miner for windows 7 64. TIA

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June 10, 2013, 05:03:47 PM
 #3255

I made a coin that makes it look like Devcoin is taking bites out of Denver, but it is turning it into a cog

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shakezula
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June 10, 2013, 05:30:49 PM
 #3256

I'd mine BBQ on a good pool like:

http://www.bqcpool.com/

Go sign up, get a username/password. Then you'll want this program to mine with:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55038.msg654850#msg654850

You will download/extract it. Run a command window and go in to the cpuminer folder and start it like this:

c:\cpuminer> minerd.exe -o bqcpool.com:8080 -u username -p x

That's pretty much all there is to it, CPU mining is pretty painless.
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June 10, 2013, 05:49:29 PM
 #3257


Go sign up, get a username/password. Then you'll want this program to mine with:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55038.msg654850#msg654850


I've got a username and password, how do I do ^^this part^^

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shakezula
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June 10, 2013, 06:06:17 PM
 #3258

Assuming you're on Windows, I'd use this one:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/cpuminer/files/pooler-cpuminer-2.2.3-win32.zip

It should work fine on 32 or 64bit. Download it and extract the zip to c:\ or wherever you'll remember it, c:\ is fine--it will make a folder called cpuminer. Now open up a command window - Start - All Programs - Accessories - Command Prompt or WINKEY+R, CMD, ENTER. It will open a black dos box. Change to the directory that you unzipped your cpuminer (assuming you put it on C:\ in the example) like so:

C:\Users\FinShaggy> cd \cpuminer

Then run the program with your username and password like so:

C:\cpuminer> minerd.exe -o bqcpool.com:8080 -u finshaggy.1 -p x

And that's about all there is to it.
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June 10, 2013, 06:11:36 PM
 #3259

open up a command window - Start

You lost me.

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marticps
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June 10, 2013, 06:13:31 PM
 #3260

open up a command window - Start

You lost me.

Just press Windows key + R, then type cmd and press enter, as shakezula said Cheesy He explained pretty well, I think you lost yourself  Tongue

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