[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[mgio]

As was announced earlier, most of the coins that were stored in WeExchange.co are now gone. We are still limited in what we can share about how that happened, and what is being done about it, but we do have some updates.

There are still approximately 386btc available in the wallets. These coins will be paid proportionally to all owed users, based on current user balances, by Monday night.

All old withdrawal requests will be removed and each user will need to initiate new withdrawals when this new balance is ready.

Full instructions on how to access the site to process these withdrawals will be provided by 5pm (GMT+2) on Monday 16th December, when you should be able to withdraw the portion of available funds allotted to your account.

This is far from ideal, but it gets every satoshi that is available to those with outstanding balances. When we are able, we will announce more details on what is being done to repay the remaining coins that are owed to WeExchange.co users.

The proportional withdrawal looks good on the first glance. But it should be considered more carefully because not every balance to be returned is of the same type of risk:

1. Coin which was deposited after "the accident". This coin should be paid back first as it should not be used to repay other debt from before the accident!
2. Coin which was deposited before "the accident". This coin should be paid after the returned coin from the above point.
3. Coin which comes from selling Ukyo.loan. This coin should be paid the last. I am stressing on this matter since ukyo.loan shareholders in my opinion should be the most affected group as they were paid for risk taken while regular deposits were supposed to be risk-free. Treating regular deposits the same way as balances coming from closing ukyo.loan would not be fair!

This proposed order of resolution depends of course on type of the "accident". Since we don't know exactly what happened You must be the judge on that matter.

No.

Ukyo.loan was a risk-free investment, just like deposited money in bitfunder or weexchange . They should all paid back proportionally at the same rate. The only way ukyo can get out of paying them would be to declare bankruptcy. Otherwise it is fraud.

[jimmothy]

As was announced earlier, most of the coins that were stored in WeExchange.co are now gone. We are still limited in what we can share about how that happened, and what is being done about it, but we do have some updates.

There are still approximately 386btc available in the wallets. These coins will be paid proportionally to all owed users, based on current user balances, by Monday night.

All old withdrawal requests will be removed and each user will need to initiate new withdrawals when this new balance is ready.

Full instructions on how to access the site to process these withdrawals will be provided by 5pm (GMT+2) on Monday 16th December, when you should be able to withdraw the portion of available funds allotted to your account.

This is far from ideal, but it gets every satoshi that is available to those with outstanding balances. When we are able, we will announce more details on what is being done to repay the remaining coins that are owed to WeExchange.co users.

The proportional withdrawal looks good on the first glance. But it should be considered more carefully because not every balance to be returned is of the same type of risk:

1. Coin which was deposited after "the accident". This coin should be paid back first as it should not be used to repay other debt from before the accident!
2. Coin which was deposited before "the accident". This coin should be paid after the returned coin from the above point.
3. Coin which comes from selling Ukyo.loan. This coin should be paid the last. I am stressing on this matter since ukyo.loan shareholders in my opinion should be the most affected group as they were paid for risk taken while regular deposits were supposed to be risk-free. Treating regular deposits the same way as balances coming from closing ukyo.loan would not be fair!

This proposed order of resolution depends of course on type of the "accident". Since we don't know exactly what happened You must be the judge on that matter.

No.

Ukyo.loan was a risk-free investment, just like deposited money in bitfunder or weexchange . They should all paid back proportionally at the same rate. The only way ukyo can get out of paying them would be to declare bankruptcy. Otherwise it is fraud.

I think we can agree on 1 but 2 and 3 are debatable

[cryptocyprus]

Please do send lawyers after me, I have no liability to missing coins and my time is expensive, I am the one trying to get people their coins back. Like I have said before if you don't want that I am happy to not worry about certain individuals. More than happy to do that considering the attitude some people have towards me on here.

When it is POSSIBLE to release the full information as to what happened, that information will be posted and many on here will quickly become quiet. Has no one given it the thought that by revealing too much information could result in a decreased chance of getting those coins back?

The reason why the coins will be available for withdrawal to your own wallets on Monday is down to the precaution of making sure the remaining funds don't go missing too!

[robix]

When it is POSSIBLE to release the full information as to what happened, that information will be posted and many on here will quickly become quiet. Has no one given it the thought that by revealing too much information could result in a decreased chance of getting those coins back?

When will this be or what are the requirements for this to come? What is the situation with BF AsicMiner PT's. Why are they not transfered to direct shares yet?

[cryptocyprus]

The time frame for the possibility of that information to be made public is beyond my control. If it was down to me it would have been made public a long time before I got involved.

[robix]

The time frame for the possibility of that information to be made public is beyond my control. If it was down to me it would have been made public a long time before I got involved.

Who has control?

[mgio]

Please do send lawyers after me, I have no liability to missing coins and my time is expensive, I am the one trying to get people their coins back. Like I have said before if you don't want that I am happy to not worry about certain individuals. More than happy to do that considering the attitude some people have towards me on here.

When it is POSSIBLE to release the full information as to what happened, that information will be posted and many on here will quickly become quiet. Has no one given it the thought that by revealing too much information could result in a decreased chance of getting those coins back?

The reason why the coins will be available for withdrawal to your own wallets on Monday is down to the precaution of making sure the remaining funds don't go missing too!

I don't know why people are giving you such a hard time. I realize you are only trying to help and I really appreciate it. I guess people are just frustrated and losing their patience and are looking for someone to complain to, especially singe ukyo hasn't spoken publicly in a while.

[dnaleor]

When it is POSSIBLE to release the full information as to what happened, that information will be posted and many on here will quickly become quiet. Has no one given it the thought that by revealing too much information could result in a decreased chance of getting those coins back?

oh boy... I am guessing the computer of ukyo is stolen, and also his backups are stolen.

Always keep backups at different places, always!

[ffssixtynine]

I know Danny personally and I know that he is a well-intentioned person. How can you compare Danny to someone like pirate? Danny is running a legitimate business which has been properly registered with employees working for him and a government supporting him. No one knew pirate's identity until recently and he was running an obvious pyramid scheme.

EDIT: Andreas M. Antonopoulos works for NEO. I don't think that an established person in the Bitcoin Community like him would ever chose to associate let alone work for an organization or a person who is a 'scammer'

+1 although if pyramid schemes were obvious people wouldn't get scammed! I have said the same about tradefortress and yet people still put money in his pot... Then it got stolen and he is still anonymous.

Danny has got in to try and get our money back and was not involved until shortly before he posted. If you can't tell the difference between Neo and pirate or labcoin then you need proper, informed advice from a third party as you're not thinking straight. It doesn't matter what danny gets out of it, if anything, as long as we get a better result than without his involvement.

That's not a criticism of those thinking the worst, it's understandable. I get it, but it's time to move forwards and not by breaking the law yourself. Even making the suggestion of such is putting you in the firing line if something were to happen so I strongly suggest you don't do it.

So hire a lawyer and do things properly rather than sitting on a forum full of people with axes to grind, stirring, or who in your mind could be part of the problem. That doesn't make sense. The solution can only go two ways right now: lawyer or wait a while for Danny to come through.

I posted about the stirring crumbs is doing over in the NEOBEE thread. It's absolutely disgusting and I feel sorry for anyone who is being taken in or stressed out more by that because this is a shocking situation anyway.

What a sad, horrible individual spends his time winding people up who have potentially lost $100,000 dollars, and continually goes for the person who may actually get them back. I didn't know he would stoop this low. That's not trolling, that's inhuman and it's bullying in the most snide way imaginable. I feels sorry for those who don't see it. Crumbs is clever and knows how to push people. He's even happy to piss off and waste the time of the very people trying to get our money back.

For those of you who think he keeps raising good points, well there is really nothing I can say other than you need a lawyer to advise you properly, not an internet troll who thinks you're beneath him and is out for kicks.

Seb - a lawyer won't necessarily get the full story, but a lawyer will be able to speak to danny and will be able to advise you accordingly. Ignore crumbs and his idiotic suggestion that getting a lawyer would be a bad idea. Getting a lawyer is never a bad idea. The action you take once you have a lawyer, that takes more thinking about.

The most important thing if you do engage legal counsel is that they need the public facts, not inferences, and they should speak to Danny. The facts are who said what and when, not what you think those facts mean. Only then can they advise.

I know some people will shout me down for suggesting the actual solution we have to use in the real world, but if you don't know what to do then a lawyer is your answer. If you want to group together to pay then do so. There is a very good lawyer with knowledge of exchanges, securities and the SEC on this very board. Whether appropriate I don't know, but not a bad place to start if you have issues with bitfunder or weexchange.

So be angry with Ukyo for allowing this situation to happen, sure, but not Danny. Even if you are, the solution is still the same. Wait for progress, and no we don't know how long, or get proper legal counsel.

Personally, I'm waiting for Danny's solution because I know long, drawn out legal action would have precious little at the end of it and would be a very long way away. I also doubt its chances of success. But that's just the view from here.

[robix]

Nice post, lot of text, no content. Nothing we already knew.

Did you realize that Danny stated:

The time frame for the possibility of that information to be made public is beyond my control. If it was down to me it would have been made public a long time before I got involved.

So I'm asking myself, who has control. This is becoming mysterious.

One one hand, maybe Danny is the good guy who wants to help people out of this mess. I don't know. On the other he obviously helped Ukyo to leave the stage and get out of the fireline. We are now facing a guy who can't say what's the matter due to any unknown reasons and has no liability in this issue.

If there are any public authorities involved, why not say, we have a issue with XYZ authority and we are working on a solution. Why should that be forbidden or how should it put coins that "are gone" at further risk?

At the moment, this looks like a waiting game.

[VolanicEruptor]

Crumbs is clever

Hear that falling sound??  Yeah, that's everyones respect for you.  Way to encourage the little guy 

[tomywomy]

Please do send lawyers after me, I have no liability to missing coins and my time is expensive, I am the one trying to get people their coins back. ng funds don't go missing too!

Danny,
You voluntarily got yourself involved in this situation, for reasons that you have not revealed.  You have met with Ukyo, in person, for a while now, and played a part in his leaving his country while millions of dollars are missing.  You have committed to sharing information and then after a long wait you have shared practically no information.  

I will likely not involve a lawyer because the amount I have at risk is negligible and not worth a lawyer's time, but you are absolutely involved in this and if there is criminal activity then you would have been conspiring with the criminal, concealing criminal information, aiding and abetting.  These involve not just civil, but criminal acts.  

At the very least you need to get legal counsel about what you've gotten yourself into here.  

I can't begin to guess the problems you're going to have as a result of stepping in to this mess and I won't bother to guess as to your motives, how much you know and don't know and what kind of person you are.  But you've gotten yourself involved in secretive acts with the person responsible for $2 million at least that has gone missing and it's pretty clear people aren't getting the missing money back.  How can that have been a wise thing for you, your company or its shareholders?

[ffssixtynine]

Crumbs is clever

Hear that falling sound??  Yeah, that's everyones respect for you.  Way to encourage the little guy  

Lol! People had respect for me, yay! But yes, he is clever and can be funny. He could do a lot of good if he wasn't such an arse.

Tomy, what on earth makes you think Danny is doing anything without legal advice?!

[Bananery]

Neo & Bee and don't have any liabilities towards WeExchange users. Nothing at all. Danny also has no legal responsibility and has a right to remain silent with zero consequences. Going after Danny will give you nothing and will just waste your time and money.

Going after Ukyo will help to get the truth but it won't make easier to get the funds back.

[Bananery]

You have committed to sharing information and then after a long wait you have shared practically no information.  

Have you seen the written contract between Danny and Ukyo with all the details, liabilities and deadlines? I didn't think so.

Danny has no legal responsibility and has a right to remain silent with zero consequences.

[crumbs]

You have committed to sharing information and then after a long wait you have shared practically no information.  

Have you seen the written contract between Danny and Ukyo with all the details, liabilities and deadlines? I didn't think so.

Danny has no legal responsibility and has a right to remain silent with zero consequences.

Possibly, though it's nowhere as clear-cut as you think.
You are robbed, and I tell you "The cops won't get your stuff back.  The guy who robbed you is staying with me, and i'm working on getting your stuff back.  Wait."  At this point, i most certainly have legal liabilities.  Especially if it could be shown that my promise to "work on the problem" affected your decision to report a crime.

[Bananery]

You have committed to sharing information and then after a long wait you have shared practically no information.  

Have you seen the written contract between Danny and Ukyo with all the details, liabilities and deadlines? I didn't think so.

Danny has no legal responsibility and has a right to remain silent with zero consequences.

Possibly, though it's nowhere as clear-cut as you think.
You are robbed, and I tell you "The cops won't get your stuff back.  The guy who robbed you is staying with me, and i'm working on getting your stuff back.  Wait."  At this point, i most certainly have legal liabilities.  Especially if it could be shown that my promise to "work on the problem" affected your decision to report a crime.

You have zero facts about what really happened and on what terms he agreed to help. I'm sure that Danny consulted his lawyers and whatever he gets from Ukyo for help, he's agreed to zero responsibility.

Your robbery example is pure bullshit and doesn't apply in this situation at all. You can continue your trolling as long as you want. You can think whatever you want.

I'm saying this to others who think going legally after Danny is a good idea. That will give you nothing, Danny doesn't have to say a single word. There is no contract signed by Danny where he agreed to any liabilities or commited to sharing anything. Such contract doesn't exist.

[cryptoanarchist]

More bullshit.

[ldrgn]

Has no one given it the thought that by revealing too much information could result in a decreased chance of getting those coins back?

Anyone else remember when Pirate said that people making a stink would be at the end of the queue to get their coins back?  It was right after BrightAnarchist got a bunch of people together to hire a lawyer and see what could be done.  No more than a day or two later Pirate came out with that announcement and the group disappeared instantly.

It's certainly possible that the coins could be seized by law enforcement and Ukyo might not be able to discuss the details there.  He also might have burned through the money in any number of criminal ways and doesn't want to say anything that could be an admission of guilt.

[crumbs]

...
You have zero facts about what really happened and on what terms he agreed to help. I'm sure that Danny consulted his lawyers and whatever he gets from Ukyo for help, he's agreed to zero responsibility.

Your robbery example is pure bullshit and doesn't apply in this situation at all. You can continue your trolling as long as you want. You can think whatever you want.

I'm saying this to others who think going legally after Danny is a good idea. That will give you nothing, Danny doesn't have to say a single word. There is no contract signed by Danny where he agreed to any liabilities or commited to sharing anything. Such contract doesn't exist.

I am making a simple claim -- Danny's liability here is not clear-cut.  I take care to make my posts precise.
If you are suggesting that you have access to facts that i do not, feel free to share them.
I, like you, assume that Danny has consulted his lawyer -- that is the likely "legal reason" he is referring to.