rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;)

[wachtwoord]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

Coinbase has been using "bits": 1 BTC = 1,000,000 bits, 1 bit = 100 satoshi

So now the proposal wants to use:  1 BTC = 1,000,000 bitcoins , 1 bitcoin = 100 satoshi  ?

I know, this is confusing, however since they will call a base unit XBT, there is no way they can call XBT "bit" because "bitcoin" is instantly recognizable, but "bit" is not.
I think that they are aiming to have just two units: bitcoin (XBT) and satoshi. If they will try to replace bitcoin with a term "bit" for XBT, there will be a huge resistance. However, if they simply recalculate bitcoin (XBT) as 100 satoshi instead of 100000000 satoshi, then they have a chance for the transition to go smoother.

   Sounds like a reasonable proposition that could remove some barriers/confusion for the average Joe.  Change is never easy, but it is occasionally worthwhile.  And hey, Cheap Coins  

Cheap coin indeed. Looking at a big balance of xbt would be interesting. Holders might be subject to The Wealth Effect - feel richer and maybe spend more xbt.

Guys, you are wrong.
They propose to have an iso currency code for bitcoin (e.g. XBT), a standardized bitcoin symbol ( e.g. BTC) and a subunit consisting of 100 satoshi's.
1 bitcoin will remain 100.000.000 satoshi's, no stock split or whatever...

I don't think so (at least at a first glance). They said:

In addition, the working group will recommend Bitcoin subunits. In a currency, there is usually a main unit (base), and a subunit that is a fraction of the main unit. Currencies today operate with two decimal spaces to the right ($1.00). In Bitcoin, there are currently eight so one could theoretically pay you 0.00000001 or one hundred-millionth of a Bitcoin. Not only is this confusing for consumers, it does not fit in existing systems and software for accounting practices.

Since bitcoin (XBT) will be clearly a base (main unit), then the only way is to make satoshi a subunit at 1:100 of bitcoin (XBT).
There is room in currency standard for a historical unit, which is what BTC will probably become. It will be just called BTC (not bitcoin) at 100,000,000 satoshi.

If this is done I would far prefer the base unit to be 100 Satoshi (think of a name) and the subunit to be a Satoshi. The purchasing power of Bitcoin is already too high for your proposal and this trend will continue.

[1714467000]

1714467000

[windpath]

Now that we have bounced off 300 would love to see some updated TA...

[SlipperySlope]

Here is the one-week resolution chart of Bitstamp prices. I drew a resistance trendline down from the November 2013 peak  and a support trendline touching the capitulations. It forms a bullish falling wedge pattern, which this site says is resolved by an upwards breakout 68% of the time.

The KDJ indicator on the bottom of the chart is saying oversold as the purple line has a value less than 20.

I have noticed a price direction correlation between bitcoin, and gold and oil. The latter two have been in a slump this summer. Gold is falling because equity market investments are more profitable given stimulative monetary policy, and oil is slumping because there is new supply in the market due to hydraulic fracturing technology, i.e. tight oil. I suppose that fundamentally gold and oil should continue to slump and if indeed bitcoin is linked to these, then perhaps bitcoin will continue to slump too. On the other hand, bitcoin transaction volume for bitcoin is continuing towards a new all-time high, which should be bullish for bitcoin - apart from any connection to gold and oil.

[frienemy]

Here is the one-week resolution chart of Bitstamp prices. I drew a resistance trendline down from the November 2013 peak  and a support trendline touching the capitulations. It forms a bullish falling wedge pattern, which this site says is resolved by an upwards breakout 68% of the time.

The KDJ indicator on the bottom of the chart is saying oversold as the purple line has a value less than 20.

I have noticed a price direction correlation between bitcoin, and gold and oil. The latter two have been in a slump this summer. Gold is falling because equity market investments are more profitable given stimulative monetary policy, and oil is slumping because there is new supply in the market due to hydraulic fracturing technology, i.e. tight oil. I suppose that fundamentally gold and oil should continue to slump and if indeed bitcoin is linked to these, then perhaps bitcoin will continue to slump too. On the other hand, bitcoin transaction volume for bitcoin is continuing towards a new all-time high, which should be bullish for bitcoin - apart from any connection to gold and oil.

I made a similar chart just a few days ago. It would indicate a small rallye to 400+, then grinding down again to ~200 till summer 2015. Still I can't really believe in it. Let's see if we can break through the resistance line

[rpietila]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

[BitChick]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

Wow.  Crazy.  Everyone who values BTC (soon to be XBT) as a store of value should be totally excited about this! Who will essentially decide to do approve of this change?  Does the Bitcoin Foundation have total authority to make this happen? 

[Hen0xyd]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

For global adoption (more average Joes discovering/trying bitcoin) this is very important. I'm also thinking its a good thing and we should support it.

Even though "look cheap" isn't really an objective factor as price is just a ratio between 2 currencies. I'm pretty sure every bitcointalk user already tried to explain what is this strange "virtual bitsomething money" and then got an answer like this one : "wowww, so you're telling me you have to give hard-earned 500$ to get only 1 bitcoin ? That's very expensive, I not that rich to try this".
You can explain whatever you want about how it got plenty of decimals etc. but when people remember how expensive is this intangible thing they feel out of the game.

[BTCtrader71]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

Agreed.

Average Joe, one year from now: "I heard they redid this bitcoin thing so now one bitcoin only costs one penny and regular folk like me can afford it. But it's supposed to go to one dollar, like, real fast. I'm gonna get me some today!"

[Bitcopia]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

Agreed.

Average Joe, one year from now: "I heard they redid this bitcoin thing so now one bitcoin only costs one penny and regular folk like me can afford it. But it's supposed to go to one dollar, like, real fast. I'm gonna get me some today!"

Buy a million XBT today for only $350! 

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin is about to undergo a 1:1000000 "stock" split.
essentially, they want a base unit and a second unit being 1:100 of the first.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/press-releases/press-release-october-7-2014-bitcoin-foundation-financial-standards-working-group-leads-the-way-for-mainstream-bitcoin-adoption-2/
We already have two units: bitcoin and satoshi
Therefore, the only way to make this possible would be to recalculate bitcoin as 100 satoshi (deep inside everything is measured in satoshis anyway).
So, everyone with a current BTC will suddenly discover that he or she will have 1000000 bitcoins (officially called XBT from then on).
I think that this will put new bitcoin/XBT on a path that will eventually lead to XBT=~$1 with each satoshi=~1c.
How long it might take-maybe 20 years. If this happens, current BTC would equal $1,000,000

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

Agreed.

Average Joe, one year from now: "I heard they redid this bitcoin thing so now one bitcoin only costs one penny and regular folk like me can afford it. But it's supposed to go to one dollar, like, real fast. I'm gonna get me some today!"

Buy a million XBT today for only $350!  

Same can be said for Ripple and other alt cryptos, but generally (except for pump and dump periods) you don't see people knocking down doors to buy ripple or other alts.

EDIT:  don't get me wrong.  Overall, I believe it would be a good idea to convert to the smaller unit - mostly because BTC's value has increased so exponentially over the past few years, and likely such conversion will make further exponential growth to be easier for the conceptions of the masses to buy in smaller quantities.    For example, in my own case, my initial intuition about BTC did NOT absorb the divisibility aspect, so I did get confused by whether BTC would be practical when valued in the 100s of dollars territory.

[dillpicklechips]

This is a very reasonable proposal, and will definitely increase adoption since BTC XBT will again look cheap.

Support +1.

Sooo... I wonder if bits is still useful for nickname or xbit? Exhibit seems too many syllables and doesn't flow smoothly for saying a lot. I kind of hope XBT is just referred to as bits.

[79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX]

Just attended open meeting of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission in Washington DC. Under discussion was the regulatory framework for BTC derivatives in the US.  Most of the meeting was spent explaining several aspects of the Bitcoin protocol and currency.

http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr7010-14

On the panel, besides commissioners:

1. L. Nuara, president of TeraExchange (they have secured approval for a BTC derivative that started trading yesterday)
http://teraexchange.com
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teraexchange-completes-first-bitcoin-derivatives-trade-on-regulated-exchange-2014-10-09

2. J. Brito, from Coin Center (new BTC advocacy group)
http://coincenter.org

3. H. Shadab, Law Prof., NYU

4. T. Byun, Chief compliance officer, BitPay.

Key conclusions:
- CFTC should aim for a light regulatory touch in order to foster BTC development and financial innovation and efficiency in the US.

- CFTC commissioners believe bitcoin (or something like it) is here to stay, and they need to stay ahead of the learning curve.

- BTC derivatives are key to reduce volatility in an illiquid market and to provide hedging instruments to institutional players.
 
- BTC should be viewed as a commodity, not a currency, on the argument that although it presently functions as a currency, it has many other use cases.

- Programmable nature of BTC allows for regulatory objectives to be embedded into the code of swaps/futures/other instruments or contracts thus eliminating need for intrusive oversight.

[cbeast]

Just attended open meeting of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission in Washington DC. Under discussion was the regulatory framework for BTC derivatives in the US.  Most of the meeting was spent explaining several aspects of the Bitcoin protocol and currency.

http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr7010-14

On the panel, besides commissioners:

1. L. Nuara, president of TeraExchange (they have secured approval for a BTC derivative that started trading yesterday)
http://teraexchange.com
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teraexchange-completes-first-bitcoin-derivatives-trade-on-regulated-exchange-2014-10-09

2. J. Brito, from Coin Center (new BTC advocacy group)
http://coincenter.org

3. H. Shadab, Law Prof., NYU

4. T. Byun, Chief compliance officer, BitPay.

Key conclusions:
.
Snip

- Programmable nature of BTC allows for regulatory objectives to be embedded into the code of swaps/futures/other instruments or contracts thus eliminating need for intrusive oversight.

Ding ding f***ing ding! They are getting it!

[windpath]

- BTC should be viewed as a commodity, not a currency, on the argument that although it presently functions as a currency, it has many other use cases.

Sounds like a great meeting, however I feel this key conclusion is a mistake.

Bitcoin is currently BOTH a commodity and a currency (people regularly use it in both roles), and should be taxed in accordance with how it is used.

[sidhujag]

- BTC should be viewed as a commodity, not a currency, on the argument that although it presently functions as a currency, it has many other use cases.

Sounds like a great meeting, however I feel this key conclusion is a mistake.

Bitcoin is currently BOTH a commodity and a currency (people regularly use it in both roles), and should be taxed in accordance with how it is used.

yea andreas shed light on this during the canadian committee meeting that it should be based on where its used and how its used...

[forzendiablo]

so this ends to XMR and BTC.. whrres whole altcoin observations!

[prophetx]

- BTC should be viewed as a commodity, not a currency, on the argument that although it presently functions as a currency, it has many other use cases.

Sounds like a great meeting, however I feel this key conclusion is a mistake.

Bitcoin is currently BOTH a commodity and a currency (people regularly use it in both roles), and should be taxed in accordance with how it is used.

yea andreas shed light on this during the canadian committee meeting that it should be based on where its used and how its used...

didn't some of the EU countries announce that Bitcoin would not be taxed?  I like that position better.

[windpath]

...

didn't some of the EU countries announce that Bitcoin would not be taxed?  I like that position better.

That would be awesome, but long term is not a solution.

How can bitcoin be exempt from tax when we trade it for our local currency?

Once we pay taxes in bitcoin (yes optimistic), how can bitcoin gains not be taxed?

Unless you expect a complete collapse in modern society, in the sense that we all pay taxes, how can you expect bitcoin to not be taxed like anything else?

[marcus_of_augustus]

...

didn't some of the EU countries announce that Bitcoin would not be taxed?  I like that position better.

That would be awesome, but long term is not a solution.

How can bitcoin be exempt from tax when we trade it for our local currency?

Once we pay taxes in bitcoin (yes optimistic), how can bitcoin gains not be taxed?

Unless you expect a complete collapse in modern society, in the sense that we all pay taxes, how can you expect bitcoin to not be taxed like anything else?

Are gains on your local currency on a foreign exchange taxed?

In NZ and Switzerland for example, gains on foreign currency if held for long periods and not for short term trading will not be taxed with capital gains. You need to move to a more enlightened country. Capital gains taxes are more regressive for economic wealth buildinng than income taxes, which are bad enough. Consumption taxes only is where the world is heading, and that is the best thing out for strong, deflationary currencies, like bitcoins and gold. Of course, it is bad for govt. generally, but they've had a boom century and it is time for them to go back to the feudal dark ages from whence they sprung.

[windpath]

...

didn't some of the EU countries announce that Bitcoin would not be taxed?  I like that position better.

That would be awesome, but long term is not a solution.

How can bitcoin be exempt from tax when we trade it for our local currency?

Once we pay taxes in bitcoin (yes optimistic), how can bitcoin gains not be taxed?

Unless you expect a complete collapse in modern society, in the sense that we all pay taxes, how can you expect bitcoin to not be taxed like anything else?

Are gains on your local currency on a foreign exchange taxed?

In NZ and Switzerland for example, gains on foreign currency if held for long periods and not for short term trading will not be taxed with capital gains. You need to move to a more enlightened country. Capital gains taxes are more regressive for economic wealth buildinng than income taxes, which are bad enough. Consumption taxes only is where the world is heading, and that is the best thing out for strong, deflationary currencies, like bitcoins and gold. Of course, it is bad for govt. generally, but they've had a boom century and it is time for them to go back to the feudal dark ages from whence they sprung.

Yes. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Currency-and-Currency-Exchange-Rates