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Author Topic: [ANN][HUC] Huntercoin - Worlds First Decentralized Game/World on the Blockchain  (Read 853807 times)
MithrilMan
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March 16, 2016, 05:47:54 PM
 #7061


The feature i was talking about is centralized because relay on my server to exchange information (think it as a game server) so i find hard to share someway
At the same time i find hard to share the same implementation you have done about graphics improvement, or worse, your auction gem system because it relays on custom implementations.
Ok, we can share implementation details and whatever, but if people running my client use a different daemon (i built my client upon huntercoind.exe RPCs) then i can't have a custom game.data like you


A small step that is useful right away, could go like this:
- use the same list of "player sprites", if mithril edition gets a new monster, betterQt would load this too, and vice versa
- a daemon (with 2 patches applied) determines a list of important things to display (just "indicative, client side" like the gem spawnpoint in betterQt safemode),
  this can be polled using RPCs or compiled into Qt and displayed in both clients

Any new game element would be designed with this in mind, e.g. 1 of the 2 patches must be able to determine the coordinates of a NPC that will then do complicated things in one client but visually (sprite index, coor, dir, and what it has to say like "5 gems for the ugly head of this annoying hunter") would appear in both.

In this example, players can also do the "quest" with any client, and the reward is kept safe for them. This happens implicitly, without any additional programming, if all input is normal Huntercoin moves and gamestate does all data processing.

Would you need a closed server only for payout?

we could set the rules we want, and if we follow the same implementation it would work but only if we both are running the same "patched daemon", this is the problem
not having consesus rules processing data, you can't be sure that things will work

e.g (may be inaccurate because i don't know exactly how your gem implementation works):
if you spawn a gem on your patched daemon/client, and someone that have not a patched daemon walk over, your daemon would assign it to that hunter while the daemon that the player is running, that isn't patched, don't know about gems and ignore it

so you have an inconsistence here

Even if your implementation depend on transaction generated by the patched, and when one of the managed hunters (hunters in the wallet of the running daemon) step over the gem you generate it to communicate to every patched daemon that you own it, what happens if 2 or more different hunters step on that cell at the same time?

The point is that if you don't have consensus rule that sculpt actions result on stone (blockchain) you can run in problems where different "patched clients" aren't compatible each other, thus generating inconsistency and gameplay bugs

This is why a turing complete scripting engine would fit well


My ideal solution
My ideal solution would be to have scripting implemented in daemon and validated each block, where every script processes hunters positions/actions and affect game.data in a dynamic but predictable way (so provably fair results) and in order to "approve" those game script, a voting system would allow a script to be running

e.g.
Imagine i want to create a script that every block it spawn a random gem with a random value like you do:
1 - I'd create a script that every block uses a random number (like the one used by disaster) to chose the dropping tile, and set that info into the gamestate, and every time a hunter steps over the cell, the gem is assigned to his address (or if more hunters are there, with the same random number you chose the winner). The script creator set the Activation Delay parameter that will be used once the script is approved (see below)

2 - I send this script to the blockchain with a special transaction (Script transaction)

3 - This script now is open to be voted, and the vote could be expressed sending some amount of money to the script address (could be a nice way to incentivate game improvement in a decentralized way) or maybe thre should be some form of control that need that some invested "game masters" approve it

4 - Once the feature is approved, it will be active, starting from current approvation block, after the Activation Delay amount of blocks to be decided (so clients developer could have time to implement the needed addiction to the game)

This way, WITHOUT requiring hard forks, we could have an expandable game. It sounds cool to me

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Vaccomondus
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March 16, 2016, 06:14:00 PM
 #7062

how many coins can be done per day on average?
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March 16, 2016, 09:03:37 PM
 #7063

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

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March 16, 2016, 09:15:53 PM
 #7064

My ideal solution would be to have scripting implemented in daemon and validated each block, where every script processes hunters positions/actions and affect game.data in a dynamic but predictable way (so provably fair results) and in order to "approve" those game script, a voting system would allow a script to be running

e.g.
Imagine i want to create a script that every block it spawn a random gem with a random value like you do:
1 - I'd create a script that every block uses a random number (like the one used by disaster) to chose the dropping tile, and set that info into the gamestate, and every time a hunter steps over the cell, the gem is assigned to his address (or if more hunters are there, with the same random number you chose the winner). The script creator set the Activation Delay parameter that will be used once the script is approved (see below)

2 - I send this script to the blockchain with a special transaction (Script transaction)

3 - This script now is open to be voted, and the vote could be expressed sending some amount of money to the script address (could be a nice way to incentivate game improvement in a decentralized way) or maybe thre should be some form of control that need that some invested "game masters" approve it

4 - Once the feature is approved, it will be active, starting from current approvation block, after the Activation Delay amount of blocks to be decided (so clients developer could have time to implement the needed addiction to the game)

This way, WITHOUT requiring hard forks, we could have an expandable game. It sounds cool to me

That sounds like a great solution! I think voting should be done vis micro transactions, though, so people don't have to pay to vote. We could weight votes by the amount of HUC held by the sending address for longer than XYZ days.

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March 16, 2016, 09:16:58 PM
 #7065

It's been so long since this question has been asked,  i've almost forgotten...

as far as i remember:

10 coins are generated per block.

1 by hardware mining
9 put onto the map (actually 8.75, 0.25 coins go to whomever has the crown of fortune, but sometimes it may be on the ground - in which case it goes to the gamefund afair)

1440 mins in a day

14400 coins generated a day (until halving)

from the game you could get about 13k if you dominated and had full control.

That's not including PvP (of which you might win or lose some).
I generally log in and create 10 hunters and hope to catch people by surprise.. i can normally make 1 or 2k coins from a few of hours of play (while working) (sometimes more).
That being said, the combat mechanics need fixing as it's too predictable - although, humans do tend to find ways of making what seems simple stalemate combat into almost complex chess when using multiple hunters (with more or against more).

edit:

regarding las tpost by mm and bitcoin co-op

i may have misunderstood some -but you could jsut do this now, that's what wiggi has shown?

and without any script stuff or changing anything. as long as you get people to use your own calculated gamestate (like wiggis gem client) you could have all the information you need.

every player has an address, and each player in time can have their address shown using name_history (in case someone else creates a toon with the same name)

maybe i'm not understanding completely though ..

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snailbrain
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March 16, 2016, 09:26:23 PM
 #7066

there is 731k coins in the gamefund atm..

(this is an inaccessible sum of coins which is to be used in future updates, such as NPC loot or crown of fortune)

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March 16, 2016, 10:20:16 PM
 #7067

i may have misunderstood some -but you could jsut do this now, that's what wiggi has shown?

and without any script stuff or changing anything. as long as you get people to use your own calculated gamestate (like wiggis gem client) you could have all the information you need.

every player has an address, and each player in time can have their address shown using name_history (in case someone else creates a toon with the same name)

maybe i'm not understanding completely though ..
Well, we can't have people playing by conflicting rules in the same game world... otherwise I'd make a new ability for my (hypothetical) client that makes the rest of you super easy to kill.

UNLESS we have different clients create transactions with unique headers!!! Then they could ignore conflicting ones completely so they don't even appear to each other on the map

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March 16, 2016, 10:40:18 PM
 #7068

regarding las tpost by mm and bitcoin co-op

i may have misunderstood some -but you could jsut do this now, that's what wiggi has shown?

and without any script stuff or changing anything. as long as you get people to use your own calculated gamestate (like wiggis gem client) you could have all the information you need.

every player has an address, and each player in time can have their address shown using name_history (in case someone else creates a toon with the same name)

maybe i'm not understanding completely though ..

no, you can't without node consensus and non-patched daemon would not have had features that patched daemon would have.
And the worst thing is that you can't even change game rules by script without hard forking. Scripts allow you to do anythink because nodes already have all they need to validate scripts and execute them.
I don't know if i explained me bad or what, but you can't even get close to what i mean actually

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March 17, 2016, 12:57:48 AM
 #7069

regarding las tpost by mm and bitcoin co-op

i may have misunderstood some -but you could jsut do this now, that's what wiggi has shown?

and without any script stuff or changing anything. as long as you get people to use your own calculated gamestate (like wiggis gem client) you could have all the information you need.

every player has an address, and each player in time can have their address shown using name_history (in case someone else creates a toon with the same name)

maybe i'm not understanding completely though ..

no, you can't without node consensus and non-patched daemon would not have had features that patched daemon would have.
And the worst thing is that you can't even change game rules by script without hard forking. Scripts allow you to do anythink because nodes already have all they need to validate scripts and execute them.
I don't know if i explained me bad or what, but you can't even get close to what i mean actually


edit
just read some more and i think i understand.

i think your ideal solution was just an example (gems)..
if talking about gems or anything calculated by gamestate then you can just use modified client like wiggi. you can have a complete new currency in the gamestate if you want. as long as people are using your modified daemon you can add diamonds to the map and it doesnt matter if i dont have the client. same as wiģgis gems. as long as it's not affecting the mechanics of the original game.
if you mean game mechanics changes...maybe you are then will need consensus by all nodes
voting is difficult to do as the rich will always get what they want due to how most cryptos work. maybe if voting is expensive and the coins become part of the fund?

apologies for typos (in bed remotely)


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March 17, 2016, 04:04:11 AM
 #7070

I was thinking we could have multiple gamestates on the Huntercoin blockchain. If we allowed different clients to mark transactions as theirs, the protocol could prevent them from interacting and allow them to occupy the same map tiles. The protocol would only apply logic such as combat to hunters with the same client header; it would just require nodes to store this extra data and miners to process the new transactions. Those who don't upgrade would be unaffected.

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March 17, 2016, 11:04:37 AM
 #7071

I was thinking we could have multiple gamestates on the Huntercoin blockchain. If we allowed different clients to mark transactions as theirs, the protocol could prevent them from interacting and allow them to occupy the same map tiles. The protocol would only apply logic such as combat to hunters with the same client header; it would just require nodes to store this extra data and miners to process the new transactions. Those who don't upgrade would be unaffected.

yes, with different gamestates you could have entirely different games that don't interfere at all.
or other use cases.. pretty much anything can be done that any other crypto can do i'd assume..

we'd at least maybe need to add an extra value to created names (characters) if there are multiple game states like - world=1 for original huntercoin... any other options makes your "name/character" behave just like a namecoin name then you could play in any world you wish depending on which client you use (i.e. doesn't die with disaster or appear in huntercoin world/gamestate).

Outputting huntercoins from the othe gameworlds could/would get complicated if we wanted to keep the same supply of coins.. (unless we go the wiggi's gems route and don't output huntercoins)

you could use namecoin (easier) or other cryptos to

the gamestate-calcs doesn't need to be in the client?
e.g.

Make a name in namecoin called "game/snailbrain"
interface with namecoin via rpc to modify your character (move etc).
All Agree on the game rules (hardest part, but also hardest part of huntercoin)
use an external website (or 3rd party client) which has the "game rules" (calculates gamestate) built in, to interface with namecoin.
play..

coins collected in the external gamestate won't be namescoins (can't output) but a new crypto currency (like wiggi's gems)... to transfer the newcurrency just have an agreed namecoin value command like :
name_update game/snailbrain {"send":500,"recip":"Bob"}

the external "gamestate/software" that everyone agrees on will "read this" and other commands like attacks or special moves..

it's still decentralized? (ish).
anyone can calculate the game state exactly if they all use the same "game rules"

If your character dies in the alt game, he will only be dead virtually in that gamestate but his namecoin name will still exist. He probably just starts again in the game world (teleports to start of map).

would be better just allowing standard names in huntercoin to boost it, as well as that blocks are 1 minute as opposed to namecoins 10 minutes.

just using crypto as a p2p game engine/server without the gamestate (nodes don't need calculate millions of different states), and without printing the main cryptos coins

-
edit

you could have the gamestate calculated in the huntercoin daemon as well (for the extra game states) in a modular fashion, this way an exchange could just add modules to add the different currencies that are using the huntercoin p2p-game-network?

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March 17, 2016, 11:51:47 AM
 #7072

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?
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March 17, 2016, 11:54:49 AM
 #7073

frankly i don't understand how can this works, if anyone can interpret the same transaction in different ways and for one a player is alive and another is not

The reward logic (so coin transfer because of game actions, like i kill someone and i get 200 huc) must be handled by nodes that must validate each game transaction and then generate the coin transfer accordlying, so this must be right into the node validation rules

I understand that you can create a name and change some of its attribute and then having a custom daemon that parse the custom rules and apply custom game state, but this is ok as long as it impact visually like applying a custom skin on your hunters, that you may be the only one to see or that other with same daemon logic can apply but that anyway doesn't impact on the game rules, but if you want to have a different kind of game, you can only create custom games if they are just visual games without rewards, because if you create e.g. a chess game where who win pay something to the opponent, only the loser can send the money, so he can just prevent that and voilat, faked game.

Or you can have a centralized server that handle all the reward transaction, if players transfer funds to it before playing, but this would not be a decentralized game of course (and this is what i wanted to do to implement my Contests)

Am i missing something?

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March 17, 2016, 12:00:17 PM
 #7074

frankly i don't understand how can this works, if anyone can interpret the same transaction in different ways and for one a player is alive and another is not

The reward logic (so coin transfer because of game actions, like i kill someone and i get 200 huc) must be handled by nodes that must validate each game transaction and then generate the coin transfer accordlying, so this must be right into the node validation rules

I understand that you can create a name and change some of its attribute and then having a custom daemon that parse the custom rules and apply custom game state, but this is ok as long as it impact visually like applying a custom skin on your hunters, that you may be the only one to see or that other with same daemon logic can apply but that anyway doesn't impact on the game rules, but if you want to have a different kind of game, you can only create custom games if they are just visual games without rewards, because if you create e.g. a chess game where who win pay something to the opponent, only the loser can send the money, so he can just prevent that and voilat, faked game.

Or you can have a centralized server that handle all the reward transaction, if players transfer funds to it before playing, but this would not be a decentralized game of course (and this is what i wanted to do to implement my Contests)

Am i missing something?

hi,

you just wouldn't be able to use "huntercoins" themselves. It would have to be another virtual crypto within the crypto (same as wiggi's gems)
Huntercoins would be used to create your name of course (not mega dissimilar to how coins are made on top of bitcoin)

as long as your huntercoin name isn't created in the huntercoin gamestate (i.e. allow to create names in huntercoin which are just like namecoin names and are not in huntercoin world) then you can have your own external gamestate.

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March 17, 2016, 12:02:05 PM
 #7075

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?

posted further up

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March 17, 2016, 12:07:12 PM
 #7076

frankly i don't understand how can this works, if anyone can interpret the same transaction in different ways and for one a player is alive and another is not

imagine like this:

you have huntercoin as it is now but you also allow to create characters with a {world=0} value.
This means your character does not appear in the huntercoin world and it lasts forever.
you can still change it's values just like in namecoin (and huntercoin).

an external gamestate calculates the gamestate based on characters whos world=0
in this gamestate it can be a completely different game and you can pickup coins items or whatever.

how much coins you have is all calculated in the gamestate.. but you can't obviously print huntercoins, it would be a new currency(or multiple like gold, silver bronze).
just a full game of anything you want on the back huntercoin

Everyone will calcualte the gamestate exactly if everyone is using the exact same "laws" and "rules". If someone is interpreting the game state differently, then my gamestate won't agree so they will be in alternative reality (fork)

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Vaccomondus
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March 17, 2016, 12:29:37 PM
 #7077

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?

posted further up


i mean how many coin per day 1 player can do, by playing let's say 8 hours?
snailbrain
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March 17, 2016, 12:34:56 PM
 #7078

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?

posted further up


i mean how many coin per day 1 player can do, by playing let's say 8 hours?

Depends how many you control and how good you are.
if you completely dominated the map the max is 13k a day.

I've just been playing for an hour (at work so on and off) and made 600coins in pvp.. the loot i collected just pays for the destructs i used.

combat mechanics are not great so winning in pvp is usually due to the enemy making a mistake or having blocks solved faster than normal or them being afk Cheesy

(next updates will be concentrating on combat mechanics)

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Vaccomondus
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March 17, 2016, 12:45:26 PM
 #7079

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?

posted further up


i mean how many coin per day 1 player can do, by playing let's say 8 hours?

Depends how many you control and how good you are.
if you completely dominated the map the max is 13k a day.

I've just been playing for an hour (at work so on and off) and made 600coins in pvp.. the loot i collected just pays for the destructs i used.

combat mechanics are not great so winning in pvp is usually due to the enemy making a mistake or having blocks solved faster than normal or them being afk Cheesy

(next updates will be concentrating on combat mechanics)


so 1 hunter cost me 200, how much he need to pay for itself, if he is not killed?

are the coins easy to bring back to the bank? the travel on average is long?
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March 17, 2016, 12:54:07 PM
 #7080

how many coins can be done per day on average?

Done how? You mean earned by playing the game? ("Human mining")

yeah, by playing, how many per day?

posted further up


i mean how many coin per day 1 player can do, by playing let's say 8 hours?

Depends how many you control and how good you are.
if you completely dominated the map the max is 13k a day.

I've just been playing for an hour (at work so on and off) and made 600coins in pvp.. the loot i collected just pays for the destructs i used.

combat mechanics are not great so winning in pvp is usually due to the enemy making a mistake or having blocks solved faster than normal or them being afk Cheesy

(next updates will be concentrating on combat mechanics)


so 1 hunter cost me 200, how much he need to pay for itself, if he is not killed?

are the coins easy to bring back to the bank? the travel on average is long?

with 1 character you are going to struggle making any coins, together with being new, not a good combo.

You should maybe expect to lose some coins while practicing and learning the game.
You should also use Mithrilman Client or Unity3d Client or Wiggi's Better Qt otherwise you will be at a serious disadvantage.

moving costs fractions of a huntercoin each time, Destruct (attack) currently costs 20 hucs (this will change when we implement things like spell timers).

it also costs 205 to create a hunter in total

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