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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 84174 times)
Quickseller
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February 09, 2019, 11:48:17 PM
 #1361

I think the trust system does way more harm to the community than good, it should be removed IMO. The amount of people I get direct messaging me on Twitter complaining how they stopped using this forum because of issues around trust is noticeable, or ranting about Lauda. I don't think these people are necessarily scammers either.

Better to just remove it. I'm sure the overall happiness of the community would go way up. Let people figure out for themselves if someone or a business is trustworthy, as they do on the rest of the internet. It's a noble idea but it just builds resentment among members which might actually lead to more shady and dubious behavior. Mobs going around bullying members with trust scores is shady activity. Feels like more people complain about getting their trust fucked with and characters like Lauda than they do about scams here.

Trust scores are mostly meaningless, it's closer to a popularity contest than a true measure of someone's trustworthiness. Just by using this site, all of you are implicitly trusting me, but that isn't reflected at all in my trust score, in fact I probably seem less trustworthy on first observation than some actual shady people on here. There's so much angst with the whole system, maybe there's a way to make it work better, and tweaking it could eventually lead to that, but for now it just looks like something that's dividing the community.
The problems with the trust system started when threads complaining about DT ratings were moved from Meta to Reputation, which coincided with when DT ratings effectively stopped being both moderated and mediated by the administration and forum. This allowed complaints about trust ratings to go ignored, and those who left questionable ratings were no longer forced to defend their ratings, and ultimately has lead to complaints about ratings being answered with cat pictures and other trolling.

The trust system got much worse (and if the above alone happened, it probably would not have gotten anywhere near as bad as it is now) when Blazed was added to DT1, and eventually added several questionable people who didn't have any business in being in any position of authority. These questionable people eventually earned reputation, conducted business successfully, and were able to "tag" enough scammers for others to trust them, however there were a lot of people "tagged" along the way who weren't by any reasonable definition a "scammer" nor could you reasonably say why they would attempt to scam in the future. IMO, adding Blazed to DT1, and more specifically/importantly, keeping him there when problems went unaddressed, was probably the single worse decision theymos has made as admin (assuming each time the forum was hacked was the result of a bad decision on his part). I can't really blame theymos for adding Blazed to DT1 in the first place, at the time he was trusted by many, had an extensive trading history, was known to be fair both when dealing with others and in his trust ratings, and was willing to take responsibility when he messed up; for the most part, this is mostly true, although he was involved in this escrow dispute in which millions of dollars were unaccounted for, although it is unclear his specific role as there were multiple escrows, perhaps the reason he escaped unscathed was the lack of public statements and transparency, which is something I find shady in-itself, but I digress. None of these reasons are enough to account for ignoring problems with his trust list.

The problem with ignoring abuses of the trust system for years, as has been done, is that once someone has been "tagged" for a long time, they cannot easily be "untagged" even if the abusers are removed from the trust system. For example, the last time Lauda was outright excluded from DT, some accounts "woke up" and when straight to the lending section to ask for a loan; most of these accounts were probably not reasonably scammers when they were tagged, and if not for the inactivity that was likely caused by the red trust, it might not be unreasonable to believe these people would repay their loans had they not just gotten their "red trust" removed. Obviously given the circumstances, they were unlikely to repay any loan they might receive, and were likely attempting to scam via taking a loan they had no intention of repaying.

The current state of the trust system does not do much in terms of protecting against scammers because the criteria that so many people use to leave negative trust spans so far beyond "tagging" because someone is a "scammer" that the value of "tagging" has become diminished. Someone could attempt to do business with someone with negative trust after reading the comment and believing it is safe to do business with the person, and end up getting scammed, and this could happen many times because the non-DT negative ratings can be chalked up to being from trolls and/or competitors, while the DT negative trust will still not explain why it is unsafe to do business with the scammer.

I have no good solution as to what to do with the trust system. Ideally, we would go back to moderately moderating the trust system, and forcing people to defend their ratings when disputed, however this would also need to involve removing many people from the trust network (see above problem). The forum is also a lot bigger than it was back then, and as such it would be difficult to suddenly accounting for all that growth in terms of the number of disputes; the trust network would also need to be bigger than it was back then, although perhaps not as big as it was immidiately prior to this thread. I don't think the new system is a good change to the trust system, nor is anything that does "not generally be trying to cultivate a good list". There does not appear to be an admin who responds to many meta threads and as such, I don't believe there is an admin who monitors all meta threads (like BadBear did). I think outright getting rid of the trust system is probably extreme.

EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
Perhaps they were doing something similar to what they were doing in this thread.
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February 10, 2019, 12:16:15 AM
 #1362

Hence why I tagged them and reported the post for deletion. Good thing I didn’t wait until they successfully scammed and a post was made in the scam accusation section.  Roll Eyes
If I am looking correctly, this is first account OG has tagged for spreading malware since 2011  Cheesy

Go ahead, brag around, first time is something to remember  Cheesy

I don’t spend my time looking for people to tag... However, it seemed a good opportunity to display how useless the current tagging efforts are, that they literally don’t even tag actual scam threats because they’re too busy trying to keep newbies off the forum. Don’t let that stop you from trying to find a way to turn my positive action into a negative though...
A single untrusted user not tagged means the system is useless? I would think that means we need more scam busters. It's good you tagged someone. It's not a task for a single user or even a few, but many.
And a single untrusted user you tag doesn't prove you're more useful than harmful for the forum. You shouldn't generalize so easily.
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February 10, 2019, 12:17:47 AM
Merited by minifrij (1)
 #1363

However, unless I’m vastly mistaken, I believe my thoughts and actions are in line with how the administration of this forum would like to see things being done. If I’m wrong, please theymos or Cobra reach out to me via PM and help me see the error of my ways.
You don't need theymos and Cobra to PM you something that many people see. It was presented to you many times, it is just you have ignored everything people have told you.

You don't appreciate anyone nor anyone's work here. It's only about you, you and you and how great and trustworthy you are. This is impression I got about you lately. Just read your replies.

And to be honest, you have completely lost it, sending merit to someone who is suggesting people in reputation to exclude all people who are actively tagging scammers and to add several scammers to their trust network? Just because you have this fight with Lauda?

You want to talk about:
EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0 So where are you?

You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here, but when someone has real problem with cashing out 33BTC from another gambling site, where are you?

I am asking you, where are you?


I don’t spend my time looking for people to tag... who scam
FTFY
Then don't insult people who do with your "questions", "assumptions" and "conclusions".
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February 10, 2019, 12:49:30 AM
Last edit: February 10, 2019, 01:01:41 AM by cryptohunter
 #1364

However, unless I’m vastly mistaken, I believe my thoughts and actions are in line with how the administration of this forum would like to see things being done. If I’m wrong, please theymos or Cobra reach out to me via PM and help me see the error of my ways.


And to be honest, you have completely lost it, sending merit to someone who is suggesting people in reputation to exclude all people who are actively tagging scammers and to add several scammers to their trust network? Just because you have this fight with Lauda?


Because someone is tagging those they consider "scammers" does not mean they should be allowed to use the trust system for personal selfish reasons or to stifle free speech. I consider those sorts of persons very dangerous to this movement. If they must remain then they need to be tagging scammers only not tagging anyone they choose for any reason they choose. This is the main issue here.


Also I would expect it impossible to have a fight with Lauda alone. These persons do not operate alone they operate within a gang. You speak against one they all rush in to attack you by whatever means they can get away with.








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February 10, 2019, 01:12:26 AM
 #1365

However, unless I’m vastly mistaken, I believe my thoughts and actions are in line with how the administration of this forum would like to see things being done. If I’m wrong, please theymos or Cobra reach out to me via PM and help me see the error of my ways.


And to be honest, you have completely lost it, sending merit to someone who is suggesting people in reputation to exclude all people who are actively tagging scammers and to add several scammers to their trust network? Just because you have this fight with Lauda?

Because someone is tagging those they consider "scammers" does not mean they should be allowed to use the trust system for personal selfish reasons or to stifle free speech. I consider those sorts of persons very dangerous to this movement. If they must remain then they need to be tagging scammers only not tagging anyone they choose for any reason they choose. This is the main issue here.
You mean someone like this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5095156.msg49514571#msg49514571 ?
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February 10, 2019, 01:21:59 AM
 #1366

You want to talk about:
EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0 So where are you?

You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here, but when someone has real problem with cashing out 33BTC from another gambling site, where are you?

I am asking you, where are you?

Great example.  I've excluded the user who was promoting this operation from my trust network.  I see you went the opposite way and included him in yours.

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February 10, 2019, 01:25:46 AM
 #1367

You want to talk about:
EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0 So where are you?

You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here, but when someone has real problem with cashing out 33BTC from another gambling site, where are you?

I am asking you, where are you?

Great example.  I've excluded the user who was promoting this operation from my trust network.  I see you went the opposite way and included him in yours.

Hahah, I held a Signature Campaign last year, this issue was raised in the last couple of weeks (The campaign even ended a long time ago).

Do you mean to tell me that you should be held accountable for anything and everything that happens with the Sigma Pool for all eternity?

You mudslinger you  Roll Eyes

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February 10, 2019, 01:32:12 AM
 #1368

Great example.  I've excluded the user who was promoting this operation from my trust network.
For unrelated issues. But you won't tag the account behind the scam it's self, or do anything in relation to the issue at hand.

What a hero.
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February 10, 2019, 01:33:07 AM
 #1369

You want to talk about:
EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0 So where are you?

You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here, but when someone has real problem with cashing out 33BTC from another gambling site, where are you?

I am asking you, where are you?

Great example.  I've excluded the user who was promoting this operation from my trust network.  I see you went the opposite way and included him in yours.

Hahah, I held a Signature Campaign last year, this issue was raised in the last couple of weeks (The campaign even ended a long time ago).

Do you mean to tell me that you should be held accountable for anything and everything that happens with the Sigma Pool for all eternity?

You mudslinger you  Roll Eyes

It says paused as if it is still something you are running.  By last year you mean last September, a few months ago...  No mention of any wrongdoing, open accusations, or warning anywhere.  Perhaps you will take the opportunity to correct this now.  If Sigma Pool has any valid complaints against it, please point them out so that I can act accordingly.  

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February 10, 2019, 01:35:00 AM
 #1370

Hahah, I held a Signature Campaign last year, this issue was raised in the last couple of weeks (The campaign even ended a long time ago).

Do you mean to tell me that you should be held accountable for anything and everything that happens with the Sigma Pool for all eternity?

You mudslinger you  Roll Eyes

It says paused as if it is still something you are running.  No mention of any wrongdoing, open accusations, or warning anywhere.  Perhaps you will take the opportunity to correct this now.  If Sigma Pool has any valid complaints against it, please point them out so that I can act accordingly.  

I'm not saying that Sigma Pool has any valid complaints against it, I'm asking you that if they were to have them in 1 year from now meanwhile you've cancelled the Campaign in a month, should you be excluded by people because you promoted them in the past? You are ludicrous.

EDIT; Putting you back on ignore, my life was so much better that way but when you time and time again try to smear my reputation I have to respond.

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February 10, 2019, 01:35:51 AM
 #1371



That could  be true but it does not mean over all it is net positive. You have to take into account the innocent accounts destroyed in this and the fall out from that ie the forum is getting a hostile environment and it will only get worse while persons are using red tags for anything other than scams or direct scammers. The possible implications for free speech.


nobody is violating your rights of free speech just because you got a red tag, you are doing more speech than most other members.

 joining signature campaign or trading on the forum is what the negative tags you got " which i again say that you shouldn't get" - affects you most.



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February 10, 2019, 01:40:45 AM
 #1372

You want to talk about:
EDIT: Where are all the scam busters when an ACTUAL THREAT appears?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0 So where are you?

You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here, but when someone has real problem with cashing out 33BTC from another gambling site, where are you?

I am asking you, where are you?

Great example.  I've excluded the user who was promoting this operation from my trust network.  I see you went the opposite way and included him in yours.

Hahah, I held a Signature Campaign last year, this issue was raised in the last couple of weeks (The campaign even ended a long time ago).

Do you mean to tell me that you should be held accountable for anything and everything that happens with the Sigma Pool for all eternity?

You mudslinger you  Roll Eyes

It says paused as if it is still something you are running.  By last year you mean last September, a few months ago...  No mention of any wrongdoing, open accusations, or warning anywhere.  Perhaps you will take the opportunity to correct this now.  If Sigma Pool has any valid complaints against it, please point them out so that I can act accordingly.  

I'm not saying that Sigma Pool has any valid complaints against it, I'm asking you that if they were to have them in 1 year from now meanwhile you've cancelled the Campaign in a month, should you be excluded by people because you promoted them in the past? You are ludicrous.

EDIT; Putting you back on ignore, my life was so much better that way but when you time and time again try to smear my reputation I have to respond.

So you won't be changing anything about the paused campaign for a scam, as alleged by marlboroza?  I assume marlboroza has no issue with this and will keep Hhampuz in his trust network, but has an issue I didn't spend the time to research this issue to tag whoever was behind it (because I wasn't aware of it)?  Wow...

I see you have no problem now advertising the other gambling house mentioned in marlboroza's quote as facing a scam accusation.  How convenient.  Yes, ignore away.  That'll fix the problem here...

marlboroza where'd you go?  This was your scam fight...

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February 10, 2019, 01:41:53 AM
 #1373

I see you have no problem now advertising the other gambling house mentioned in marlboroza's quote as facing a scam accusation.  How convenient.  Yes, ignore away.  That's fix the problem here...
Something something betcoin.ag.
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February 10, 2019, 01:47:25 AM
 #1374

I see you have no problem now advertising the other gambling house mentioned in marlboroza's quote as facing a scam accusation.  How convenient.  Yes, ignore away.  That's fix the problem here...
Something something betcoin.ag.

I stopped advertising betcoin within days even though I didn't agree about which company involved was to blame and certainly didn't run a campaign for them (that manager resigned shortly before I removed the signature).  None of those advertising for FortuneJack have done anything, including the campaign manager.  You guys are just pointing out how much more trustworthy my actions have been than yours and how hypocritical your trust networks are...  As much as I hate continuing this drama, I believe this dialogue is likely useful for administration to see, otherwise I wouldn't engage.  My apologies to everyone else having to read all this BS.



Hey Og, why don't you message my clients again telling them they should stop working with me? That went so well last time  Roll Eyes

The scams you've been promoting?  Why would they kick their golden goose?



You claim they are a scam yet you do nothing about it? Just a few hours ago you were pumping your chest because YOU tagged a scam which nobody in DT did, because you actually care about the community.

Again.. Conflicting? Change the narrative to fit your agenda!
You have time to reply in scam accusation against fortune jack several times for reason which is very well known to everyone here

Back and forth...  I complained too much about FortuneJack...  I didn't do enough...  It's ridiculous...  

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February 10, 2019, 01:50:08 AM
Last edit: February 10, 2019, 02:11:33 AM by Hhampuz
 #1375

Hey Og, why don't you message my clients again telling them they should stop working with me? That went so well last time  Roll Eyes


On topic: I can agree with Cobra that perhaps the trust system has served it's purpose and it's time to either move away from it completely or work out something completely different similar to ebay feedback (which someone suggested previously in this thread). No matter how decentralized DT is supposed to be it'll probably never work considering some people with malicious intentions will always find themselves in it.


Edit;
So you won't be changing anything about the paused campaign for a scam, as alleged by marlboroza?  I assume marlboroza has no issue with this and will keep Hhampuz in his trust network, but has an issue I didn't spend the time to research this issue to tag whoever was behind it (because I wasn't aware of it)?  Wow...

I see you have no problem now advertising the other gambling house mentioned in marlboroza's quote as facing a scam accusation.  How convenient.  Yes, ignore away.  That'll fix the problem here...

marlboroza where'd you go?  This was your scam fight...

You were not aware of it, yet you just said you excluded me from your trust network due to it? That seems... conflicting. No?


Hey Og, why don't you message my clients again telling them they should stop working with me? That went so well last time  Roll Eyes

The scams you've been promoting?  Why would they kick their golden goose?

You claim they are a scam yet you do nothing about it? Just a few hours ago you were pumping your chest because YOU tagged a scam which nobody in DT did, because you actually care about the community.

Again.. Conflicting? Change the narrative to fit your agenda!


Hey Og, why don't you message my clients again telling them they should stop working with me? That went so well last time  Roll Eyes

The scams you've been promoting?  Why would they kick their golden goose?

Interestingly enough you wanted to apply for a campaign which I was managing, very recently, quite clearly. Interesting why you would want to do that since I promote scams and since you've excluded me from your trust list due to my "untrustworthy behaviour".

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February 10, 2019, 01:54:35 AM
 #1376

I believe this dialogue is likely useful for administration to see, otherwise I wouldn't engage.
I think the way that you want administrators to step in because you have had power taken off of you says far more than I ever could about how you value the communities' choice and decision making when compared to yourself, and so I won't bother.
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February 10, 2019, 01:57:26 AM
Last edit: February 10, 2019, 03:40:10 AM by OgNasty
 #1377

I believe this dialogue is likely useful for administration to see, otherwise I wouldn't engage.
I think the way that you want administrators to step in because you have had power taken off of you says far more than I ever could about how you value the communities' choice and decision making when compared to yourself, and so I won't bother.

Not my motivation.  I guess you think Cobra wants to eliminate the trust system because his rating wasn't high enough?


You were not aware of it, yet you just said you excluded me from your trust network due to it? That seems... conflicting. No?

That's not the reason I've excluded you, but it does seem to reinforce my judgement as being correct.


I guess you think Cobra wants to eliminate the trust system because his rating wasn't high enough?
Yes of course. After all, everything and everyone is as black and white as everything and everyone else.

However, you have been noticeably more upset since being removed from DT, which I think is fairly telling on why you want administrators to intervene on a system designed for the opposite.

That 'not black and white' is the problem...

I'm not upset.  I've praised theymos' change of the system in an attempt to decentralize it.  Unfortunately there are some users who are refusing to get on board with an honest system, and theymos mentioned blacklisting as a solution when this problem arises.  I think Lauda and TMAN should be blacklisted, owlcatz too, but I'm not willing to write him off as hopeless yet.

Any new system has growing pains. While I believe today’s change empowered a lot of nefarious users who have been trying to manipulate the trust system for a long time, and thus had a head start on these custom trust lists, I have faith the issues will be worked through in time. Thanks for working on this theymos and willingly reducing your control of the system in the name of decentralization.

Now you guys can comment back and forth if you want to bury this stuff in the thread.  I've said my piece for now.  Gotta again correct nonsense from manipulators...

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February 10, 2019, 01:59:41 AM
 #1378

I guess you think Cobra wants to eliminate the trust system because his rating wasn't high enough?
Yes of course. After all, everything and everyone is as black and white as everything and everyone else.

However, you have been noticeably more upset since being removed from DT, which I think is fairly telling on why you want administrators to intervene on a system designed for the opposite.



I think Lauda and TMAN should be blacklisted, owlcatz too
And your conversation with myself or Hhampuz relates to this how?

If your answer is something along the lines of 'sockpuppets', 'shills', 'associates', or 'partners' don't bother. That applies to everyone.
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February 10, 2019, 02:11:13 AM
 #1379

Hence why I tagged them and reported the post for deletion. Good thing I didn’t wait until they successfully scammed and a post was made in the scam accusation section.  Roll Eyes
If I am looking correctly, this is first account OG has tagged for spreading malware since 2011  Cheesy

Go ahead, brag around, first time is something to remember  Cheesy

I don’t spend my time looking for people to tag... However, it seemed a good opportunity to display how useless the current tagging efforts are, that they literally don’t even tag actual scam threats because they’re too busy trying to keep newbies off the forum

Or maybe it's because there aren't any active DT members who browse Mining forums, and no one bothered reporting it somewhere it will be seen?

Sure there are. They’re just excluded by trust manipulators currently. The post was reported to the people tasked to handle such things (i.e. not you).

I mean, if you're going to complain about no one on DT leaving them negative trust, and then complain when I do leave them negative trust, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Does "they're" refer to anyone other than you? I checked the profiles of a few well known members in the mining community as well as some of the individuals on your trust list and did not find anyone who has left many negative trust ratings active in the mining section.



That could  be true but it does not mean over all it is net positive. You have to take into account the innocent accounts destroyed in this and the fall out from that ie the forum is getting a hostile environment and it will only get worse while persons are using red tags for anything other than scams or direct scammers. The possible implications for free speech.


taking a break - expect delayed responses
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February 10, 2019, 02:22:39 AM
 #1380



Exactly. People we want around are fed up and just walking away. Cool try with your cliche meme though.
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