GPUMAX | The Bitcoin Mining Marketplace

[jamesg]

Any idea how long the waiting list is right now? I just signed up a few minutes ago, and am waiting. A day? Week?

forever.....

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[guruvan]

One more reason (and the opposite of the threat this model poses) is so that a large vested interest (think large volume money business, bank) can buy spot hash power for protection - i.e. if they were to suspect that Pool A is too big (or a competitor might amass contracts nearing 51%) - they might start to outbid competitors until they confirmed a minimum % control. Another way, one organization might buy massive spot contracts to execute at a specified time for control to reduce any potential transaction attacks.

IOW, a 51% attack.

No. Not an attack. In fact protection against a possible one, as I stated. Contracts to control 10% or 15% are not the same as something to control 51%. Suppose I have agreements w/ Pools A,B,C to watch for double spends when I make a large transactions. If I trust Pool A who has 30%, Pool B w/ 10% and Pool C w/ 3% I only have to guarantee that I control 8% or so to ensure that I am not potentially a victim. This does not necessarily mean that there is 51% capable of an attack - it fact it seems likely the trust relationship is only one of protection from attack, rather than one of attack power. (but that's just splitting a hair really since this same basic premise could be used to perpetrate an attack)

Why doesn't it make sense to just buy bitcoins for too much? Just buy 'em on Mt.Gox for market rate you say?

It's not very known what the exchange rate will be 6mos from now - if I don't want to make my business rely on my trading skill, and the risks inherent in trading, and more specifically the fluctuations and volatility of the spot exchange rate it makes much more sense to be able to purchase mining time at a premium. It's still less risky in some models than trading for BTC or purchasing gear.

Again, as has been noted, it's much more clear to see how all this might apply to longer term contracts, but I see many reasons for spot contracts to have value. I think many miners are thinking on smaller "cottage industry" levels of scale, which make most of this, especially spot contracts, seem ludicrous. The bigger the business, the more of the business that depends on risk management, rather than simple revenue production.

Seriously, I think I can come up with reasons all day long why I might want to buy spot mining contracts. I bet I could just make a whole business out of contracting on difficulty or hashrate dips.

[GenTarkin]

One more reason (and the opposite of the threat this model poses) is so that a large vested interest (think large volume money business, bank) can buy spot hash power for protection - i.e. if they were to suspect that Pool A is too big (or a competitor might amass contracts nearing 51%) - they might start to outbid competitors until they confirmed a minimum % control. Another way, one organization might buy massive spot contracts to execute at a specified time for control to reduce any potential transaction attacks.

IOW, a 51% attack.

No. Not an attack. In fact protection against a possible one, as I stated. Contracts to control 10% or 15% are not the same as something to control 51%. Suppose I have agreements w/ Pools A,B,C to watch for double spends when I make a large transactions. If I trust Pool A who has 30%, Pool B w/ 10% and Pool C w/ 3% I only have to guarantee that I control 8% or so to ensure that I am not potentially a victim. This does not necessarily mean that there is 51% capable of an attack - it fact it seems likely the trust relationship is only one of protection from attack, rather than one of attack power. (but that's just splitting a hair really since this same basic premise could be used to perpetrate an attack)

Why doesn't it make sense to just buy bitcoins for too much? Just buy 'em on Mt.Gox for market rate you say?

It's not very known what the exchange rate will be 6mos from now - if I don't want to make my business rely on my trading skill, and the risks inherent in trading, and more specifically the fluctuations and volatility of the spot exchange rate it makes much more sense to be able to purchase mining time at a premium. It's still less risky in some models than trading for BTC or purchasing gear.

Again, as has been noted, it's much more clear to see how all this might apply to longer term contracts, but I see many reasons for spot contracts to have value. I think many miners are thinking on smaller "cottage industry" levels of scale, which make most of this, especially spot contracts, seem ludicrous. The bigger the business, the more of the business that depends on risk management, rather than simple revenue production.

Seriously, I think I can come up with reasons all day long why I might want to buy spot mining contracts. I bet I could just make a whole business out of contracting on difficulty or hashrate dips.

I can see the point of your spot mining contracts, but if you back up further and see it like this: If a business even has to invest into the stability of a currency to guarantee it wont succumb to attacks that could jeopardize that business - is it even worth it for the business to even use BTC to begin with? Because that worry is not there w/ traditional currency is there? Cuz the government continually prints $ and the value of it is established and noone can really just attack $ and make that business transaction suddenly worth nothing.
Is there a premium paid when a business sends a massive transaction through the banking system which gauruntees that transaction wont be messed w/ and the bank wont go outta business or get robbed or w/e have ya...? Im not sure, but if there is and companies worry bout such things then I can see the spot contracts making sense in an environment. But if there isnt then...noone would flinch @ BTC .

[Starlightbreaker]

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.

300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return.
....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later.

used to be very reliable when there's only a few people.

300%?!?! I seriously doubt that. That depends on all hopped pools being EXTREMELY lucky and they solve blocks well ahead of the 43% diff mark.
Its practically a max of 150-160% given normal luck, if timed right. It avg's out to around 130% for hoppers using bithopper proxies.

well, one time i spent 6 btc for a last minute block boost, went thru a couple of short blocks. ended up with ~18 btc. i should probably said "up to 300%"
if you're double or triplestacking with multiple accounts, it can work even better, but if you missed the timing window...well, the loss is even greater.

i don't run it thru bithopper or any proxies btw.

[GenTarkin]

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.

300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return.
....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later.

used to be very reliable when there's only a few people.

300%?!?! I seriously doubt that. That depends on all hopped pools being EXTREMELY lucky and they solve blocks well ahead of the 43% diff mark.
Its practically a max of 150-160% given normal luck, if timed right. It avg's out to around 130% for hoppers using bithopper proxies.

well, one time i spent 6 btc for a last minute block boost, went thru a couple of short blocks. ended up with ~18 btc. i should probably said "up to 300%"
if you're double or triplestacking with multiple accounts, it can work even better, but if you missed the timing window...well, the loss is even greater.

i don't run it thru bithopper or any proxies btw.

That was just because luck was extremely favorable for you.
W/ statistical hopping using bithopper .. its a calculated average of a consistent 133% return. Not just a burst amount of luck as in ur case.

[GenTarkin]

Hey guys, would work on my public mining...the payout issue I mentioned.... would it show up under transactions in my account page...the payout? Thanks

[guruvan]

I can see the point of your spot mining contracts, but if you back up further and see it like this: If a business even has to invest into the stability of a currency to guarantee it wont succumb to attacks that could jeopardize that business - is it even worth it for the business to even use BTC to begin with?

I kind of presumed that business like a bank would act exactly in this way, regardless of the nature or issuer of the currency. I also assumed that we're talking about protection from attack moving large large sums. IRL, we move large sums of cash money with armed guards and such - I think it's likely appropriate to invest in additional security to move large sums w/ bitcoin too - no system is 100% safe

Is there a premium paid when a business sends a massive transaction through the banking system which gauruntees that transaction wont be messed w/ and the bank wont go outta business or get robbed or w/e have ya...?

Yes. While I can't ATM spot a digital service, see above note about moving large amounts of physical cash (hiring armed guards etc)  Wouldn't one think that electronic money is possibly just as susceptible to an attack as a bag of money? I would. I'm sure there was a reason that security checks were avoided when someone transferred 3 x $5trillion without a registered SWIFT note, and I'm sure whomever made the transaction made extra effort to secure it (though it appears to actually have been an "attack" I'm sure this scenario goes both ways.  

[P4man]

Seriously, I think I can come up with reasons all day long why I might want to buy spot mining contracts.

You do that, and buy our hashes at 160%. miners wont complain.
But unless you actually unlock the mystery first, you'll go broke.

You keep listing theoreticals, and thats fine, but you dont have to convince me GPUmax serves a purpose. The question being asked is who is buying all our hashes RIGHT NOW at 160% PPS, and its not large companies trying to save bitcoin from doom nor I suspect a cartel of botnet owners trying to compensate a huge shortfall on their mega contract with some mystery pool.

[GenTarkin]

I can see the point of your spot mining contracts, but if you back up further and see it like this: If a business even has to invest into the stability of a currency to guarantee it wont succumb to attacks that could jeopardize that business - is it even worth it for the business to even use BTC to begin with?

I kind of presumed that business like a bank would act exactly in this way, regardless of the nature or issuer of the currency. I also assumed that we're talking about protection from attack moving large large sums. IRL, we move large sums of cash money with armed guards and such - I think it's likely appropriate to invest in additional security to move large sums w/ bitcoin too - no system is 100% safe

Is there a premium paid when a business sends a massive transaction through the banking system which gauruntees that transaction wont be messed w/ and the bank wont go outta business or get robbed or w/e have ya...?

Yes. While I can't ATM spot a digital service, see above note about moving large amounts of physical cash (hiring armed guards etc)  Wouldn't one think that electronic money is possibly just as susceptible to an attack as a bag of money? I would. I'm sure there was a reason that security checks were avoided when someone transferred 3 x $5trillion without a registered SWIFT note, and I'm sure whomever made the transaction made extra effort to secure it (though it appears to actually have been an "attack" I'm sure this scenario goes both ways.  

Good points, thanks for explaining that to me. Makes perfect sense!

[Starlightbreaker]

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.

300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return.
....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later.

used to be very reliable when there's only a few people.

300%?!?! I seriously doubt that. That depends on all hopped pools being EXTREMELY lucky and they solve blocks well ahead of the 43% diff mark.
Its practically a max of 150-160% given normal luck, if timed right. It avg's out to around 130% for hoppers using bithopper proxies.

well, one time i spent 6 btc for a last minute block boost, went thru a couple of short blocks. ended up with ~18 btc. i should probably said "up to 300%"
if you're double or triplestacking with multiple accounts, it can work even better, but if you missed the timing window...well, the loss is even greater.

i don't run it thru bithopper or any proxies btw.

That was just because luck was extremely favorable for you.
W/ statistical hopping using bithopper .. its a calculated average of a consistent 133% return. Not just a burst amount of luck as in ur case.

nope.

i'm able to consistently get ~150-200%, and 300% with decent luck and perfect timing, back in the day.

i quit using it because it's getting way unreliable.

[e21]

Any idea how long the waiting list is right now? I just signed up a few minutes ago, and am waiting. A day? Week?

When I signed up, I waited about 2 weeks, kinda gave up hope, and then after I almost forgot about it, got my invite around the third week. This was a couple months ago, so this likely may have changed, however I would expect to wait at least two weeks.

[Electricbees]

Any idea how long the waiting list is right now? I just signed up a few minutes ago, and am waiting. A day? Week?

When I signed up, I waited about 2 weeks, kinda gave up hope, and then after I almost forgot about it, got my invite around the third week. This was a couple months ago, so this likely may have changed, however I would expect to wait at least two weeks.

My turn-around time was about 45 days... Signed up in the middle of february, I believe...

[P4man]

i'm able to consistently get ~150-200%, and 300% with decent luck and perfect timing, back in the day.

Back in the days, you had a dozen prop pools to hop. The more pools, the higher your profits.

But I think you guys are talking about different %s. With perfect timing you can get an almost arbitrary high PPS on the shares you hop with. Just hop away earlier and your PPS on those shares will go up. But your total profit while hopping just 1 prop pool  with your own hashes will go down, and its not likely you will get >135% average hopping just a single pool, particularly when its being hopped by 4x its regular hashrate.  Thats what the other poster meant I think. I doubt you'll get much more than 110% on pools like bitclockers.

But if you could indeed hop with leased shares from gpumax, then thats not the number to look at. Its the PPS for the shares you hop with. And in theory you can achieve an almost arbitrary high PPS on those, limited only by your ratio of the pools hashrate. But thats assuming you can time them perfectly, which I think we all agree, you cant, not with gpumax.

perhaps though, some other payout schemes are somehow vulnerable to sudden and massive changes in hashrate? Maybe organofcorti or Meni Rosenfeld could comment on that? I just saw on a thread on slush regular miners complaining they are losing on short rounds. Could of course be due to regular hoppers, but maybe its doable with gpumax too. I dont know exactly how Slushes score based system works

[GenTarkin]

Any idea how long the waiting list is right now? I just signed up a few minutes ago, and am waiting. A day? Week?

When I signed up, I waited about 2 weeks, kinda gave up hope, and then after I almost forgot about it, got my invite around the third week. This was a couple months ago, so this likely may have changed, however I would expect to wait at least two weeks.

Yeah, thats about what I experienced too =)

[rjk]

perhaps though, some other payout schemes are somehow vulnerable to sudden and massive changes in hashrate? Maybe organofcorti or Meni Rosenfeld could comment on that? I just saw on a thread on slush regular miners complaining they are losing on short rounds. Could of course be due to regular hoppers, but maybe its doable with gpumax too. I dont know exactly how Slushes score based system works

One of my purchases was for 60K shares at a cost of like 3BTC I think. I pointed it at Slush, and got in on a 7 minute block, making like 7 BTC. The next time, I paid something like 6 BTC for 100K shares, and did the same thing, and the return was 3 BTC, so it evened out. I then stopped gambling with my BTC.

[BurtW]

perhaps though, some other payout schemes are somehow vulnerable to sudden and massive changes in hashrate? Maybe organofcorti or Meni Rosenfeld could comment on that? I just saw on a thread on slush regular miners complaining they are losing on short rounds. Could of course be due to regular hoppers, but maybe its doable with gpumax too. I dont know exactly how Slushes score based system works

One of my purchases was for 60K shares at a cost of like 3BTC I think. I pointed it at Slush, and got in on a 7 minute block, making like 7 BTC. The next time, I paid something like 6 BTC for 100K shares, and did the same thing, and the return was 3 BTC, so it evened out. I then stopped gambling with my BTC.

This is about what happened to me.  Got very lucky once - thought this is EASY.  Fail a few times.  Now I "leave it to the professionals" and just take the extra BTC for letting them use my rig.

Why do they do it - don't care.

[cablepair]

i'm able to consistently get ~150-200%, and 300% with decent luck and perfect timing, back in the day.

Back in the days, you had a dozen prop pools to hop. The more pools, the higher your profits.

But I think you guys are talking about different %s. With perfect timing you can get an almost arbitrary high PPS on the shares you hop with. Just hop away earlier and your PPS on those shares will go up. But your total profit while hopping just 1 prop pool  with your own hashes will go down, and its not likely you will get >135% average hopping just a single pool, particularly when its being hopped by 4x its regular hashrate.  Thats what the other poster meant I think. I doubt you'll get much more than 110% on pools like bitclockers.

But if you could indeed hop with leased shares from gpumax, then thats not the number to look at. Its the PPS for the shares you hop with. And in theory you can achieve an almost arbitrary high PPS on those, limited only by your ratio of the pools hashrate. But thats assuming you can time them perfectly, which I think we all agree, you cant, not with gpumax.

perhaps though, some other payout schemes are somehow vulnerable to sudden and massive changes in hashrate? Maybe organofcorti or Meni Rosenfeld could comment on that? I just saw on a thread on slush regular miners complaining they are losing on short rounds. Could of course be due to regular hoppers, but maybe its doable with gpumax too. I dont know exactly how Slushes score based system works

Good Point p4Man but I have to ask - when was "back in the days?" last summer? lol

[TheSeven]

Any idea how long the waiting list is right now? I just signed up a few minutes ago, and am waiting. A day? Week?

The current backlog is at least a month. I registered roughly a month ago and didn't get an invite yet, even though someone claimed that they'd be able to accept all invites this week (however nothing has happened since).

[GenTarkin]

So, when this goes public. Will gpumax always determine the fee they charge people to purchase shares or will buyers be able to specify what they want to purchase the shares at?

[imsaguy]

nope.

i'm able to consistently get ~150-200%, and 300% with decent luck and perfect timing, back in the day.

i quit using it because it's getting way unreliable.

How is "consistently get ~150-200%" unreliable?