Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[cypherdoc]

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bloomberg-panel-discussion-on-outlook-for-bitcoin-NTorPlQGQzurnbQgYEz9~g.html

just started watching, impressive lineup. thought I'd share

Ugh - looks interesting... I really don't have time for this tonight.

I *almost* (not really) miss the days when I could read/watch the past week's worth of mainstream bitcoin coverage in 10 minutes.

yeah, me too.  had to stop. 

but i will listen eventually mainly b/c of Susan Athey.  she really understands the importance of the SOV aspect of Bitcoin.  not too many of those around these days.

[brg444]

Dan Pantera didn't defend the "money" position. I'm mad 

[brg444]

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bloomberg-panel-discussion-on-outlook-for-bitcoin-NTorPlQGQzurnbQgYEz9~g.html

just started watching, impressive lineup. thought I'd share

Ugh - looks interesting... I really don't have time for this tonight.

I *almost* (not really) miss the days when I could read/watch the past week's worth of mainstream bitcoin coverage in 10 minutes.

yeah, me too.  had to stop.  

but i will listen eventually mainly b/c of Susan Athey.  she really understands the importance of the SOV aspect of Bitcoin.  not too many of those around these days.

She actually said "you don't have to hold Bitcoin". And that you should use it to send money around and cashing out to fiat  

edit : guy from TeraExchange said he imagines a massive derivatives market on top of Bitcoin, likens it to gold a lot. smart man

edit2: susan athey is very confused. says you can hold you USD in coinbase. reiterates the notion "you don't have to hold Bitcoin for the system to grow"

[ssmc2]

Isn't she on-board with Ripple? None of those statements are surprising then.

[STT]

I see in that video how they instantly mention the negative of a large currency unit.  Do people really want to be fiddling with tiny little bits, ie. roughly why litecoin and possibly also dogecoin are maybe better liked; you can have 10 and its not a great big deal to handle.  Simple thing but its factor to the masses imo

Same thing can be argued with gold.  Just a gram is more then many people would carry in their back pockets without thinking about it, common currency has to be just that if you really want mainstream

Guy at 10:20 gets it, people lack imagination.  They dont care about your 32 bit hash encryption, its really just the immediate factors affecting them and thats success and future price

[brg444]

I see in that video how they instantly mention the negative of a large currency unit.  Do people really want to be fiddling with tiny little bits, ie. roughly why litecoin and possibly also dogecoin are maybe better liked; you can have 10 and its not a great big deal to handle.  Simple thing but its factor to the masses imo

Same thing can be argued with gold.  Just a gram is more then many people would carry in their back pockets without thinking about it, common currency has to be just that if you really want mainstream

This can easily be fixed and in fact is being worked on.

[brg444]

Isn't she on-board with Ripple? None of those statements are surprising then.

she's a fraud  

first question from Q&A is why the classic Bitcoin and not just "blockchain" fintech innovation and she's the first to reply with "Ripple!"

it's a shame though cause it does seem like she sees the value proposition when she develops her answer furthermore...

[tvbcof]

...so it annoys me when you folks try to fuck it up ...

Define, please.

when tvbcof gets mad, he just gets mad at everyone.

Yes, no, sorta.  Most often my troll-fests correspond with a good mood and goodwill to all.  'You only troll the ones you love', dontcha know?  Besides, Justus (or shall I say, 'Doogie Coder') started the 8-ball rollin' on the very amusing age thing IIRC.

Oh, while I'm here, 'define' would be to provoke a growth spurt in Bitcoin which would change the nature of the solution.  I've outlined my concerns hundreds of times I'm sure.

[cypherdoc]

so beautiful.

this is one of those "get on now or risk being left behind forever" moments. 

[brg444]

Charlie Songhurst from Katana ended the Bloomberg panel with a fantastic quote I have to share

"Innovation isn't random chance, it's a probabilistic outcome based on labour and capital. If you want to monitor the health of the ecosystem and know where the innovation is at ; look where smartest developers and savyest VCs are putting their labour and capital."

[cypherdoc]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

[brg444]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

[cypherdoc]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies", including those with altcoins, that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist as they will all be advertised as decentralized.

in that sense, considering speculation, i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those 2 highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

[cypherdoc]

OKCoin @ 473

yeehaw

[brg444]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

[NewLiberty]

The rising price hasn't lifted my spirits much at all.
Still reeling from this bad news.  (Bad for gold, bad for Bitcoin)
http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1415649749.php
...
http://www.gata.org/files/VonNotHausOrder-Nov-10-2014.pdf

In which Judge Voorhees writes about my friend Bernard von NotHaus, one of the inspirations for Satoshi...
A quote from the previous horrible case Gellman v US:

"The United States has the sole power to coin money under the Constitution, and if anyone, individual or
State, assumes to supplant the medium of exchange adopted by our Government,
or assumes to compete with the United States Government in this regard, a
violation of these statutes would follow. Undoubtedly, no one can interfere with
the monopoly which this Government has obtained by reason of the
Constitutional provisions without running afoul of these statutes"
...
Whether the rationale
set forth in Gellman is adopted or not, the Court finds that under the construction of Section 486
applied here, contemplating that if a coin is intended for use as current money then there is
necessarily a deceptive quality about its design, Defendant’s conviction on Count Three must be
upheld.
For the reasons set forth herein, the undersigned is of the opinion, and this Court so finds
as a matter of law, that Congress indeed possesses the power to criminalize an individual’s
minting of coinage, whether in resemblance of U.S. coins or of original design, that is intended
for use as current money.

This... in contrast to several state's "lawful money" decisions (Calif), and even precious metal as Legal Tender laws (Utah)

That's a ridiculous interpretation of Article I (am I missing some other constitutional commentary on currency issuance?). Seems a very unlikely attack vector against bitcoin unless additional explicit legislation is passed (and it would have to somehow deal only with bitcoin et al, lest they set precedent that any Chuck E Cheese franchise owner is running an illegal currency scheme).

Believe it or not, this was from the court's decision.  US Federal court.
I'm flabbergasted.
This is a political prosecution.  There were no damages.
No one lost money, no one was cheated, there was no ponzi scheme, or money laundering or any of that.
In December he may become the first political prisoner in the USA for an alternative currency and questioning the Fed.
A warehouse full of gold and silver belonging to the warehouse receipt bearers was seized by the Feds.  The accounting was perfect, everything was there just as it was claimed to be.

He's facing 22 years in federal prison, and is in his 70s.
A brilliant man, he should be a national treasure, not a prisoner.  It just doesn't make sense.


The USA is not the US Dollar, just as no country is its currency.  This is just wrong.

[cypherdoc]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that. 

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

[brg444]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that.  

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.

[cypherdoc]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that.  

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.

and therein lies the problem.  what is the definition of "legitimate"?  this is the same question i asked 50 pgs back, what is the "truth"?

as i've grown older, i've realized it's simply a matter of "opinion".  sad but true.  look at sad Obama.  he says "are you with us or against us?"  as if that the answer to that question is a legitimate measure of one's loyalty dedication to freedom.  i hope you get what i mean.

it's quite possible you end up right as it's open source.  we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[NewLiberty]

in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted

I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.