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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808483 times)
Cconvert2G36
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August 03, 2015, 09:17:49 PM
 #29761


Uh... you do realize this is just some jo dad with a stupid reddit user name, not the Winklevii.
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August 03, 2015, 09:24:01 PM
 #29762

justus, all

it seems that awareness of the need to introduce economic incentives for services provided by full nodes are rising among devs community, see this thread on the btc dev mailing list:

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/009879.html

let's see how core devs will react to this idea.

How would this work if you issue (say) one txn per day on average?  I mean, wouldn't it take a month or even a year before the SPV client summed up enough use to make it worth committing the txn?  Are there risks to having a payment channel or LN connection open for these durations?

I agree that implementation of such payment system has to be carefully crafted. that said I'm not knowledgeable enough to evaluate which solution are better. (1)
 
I just want to say that even at current level of adoption there's enough SPV traffic to support a  market based on supply and demand.

e.g. 1 txn per day per SVP client, supposedly half a million of active SPV clients would generate:

500000÷(3600×24) ~ 5.7tx/s

clearly we are not there since 5 tx/s per second is above the actual network capacity, but it is not so far fetched to estimate at least 500K SPV clients once we gain a wider users base.

(1) fwiw I'm following LN mailing list and it seems to me that keeping a channel open even for long period of time is not impossible.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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August 03, 2015, 09:24:14 PM
 #29763


Uh... you do realize this is just some jo dad with a stupid reddit user name, not the Winklevii.

if so, the jokes on me.

evidence?
Cconvert2G36
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August 03, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
 #29764


Uh... you do realize this is just some jo dad with a stupid reddit user name, not the Winklevii.

if so, the jokes on me.

evidence?

[–]WinkleviBitcoinTrust 29 points 1 month ago
I saw a headline somewhere else on Reddit when the price dipped below $200 in January. That's what got me interested in BTC, and I have been buying ever since. I could cash out now for a modest gain, but why would I do that when we are going to the moon?
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August 03, 2015, 09:33:24 PM
 #29765


Uh... you do realize this is just some jo dad with a stupid reddit user name, not the Winklevii.

if so, the jokes on me.

evidence?

[–]WinkleviBitcoinTrust 29 points 1 month ago
I saw a headline somewhere else on Reddit when the price dipped below $200 in January. That's what got me interested in BTC, and I have been buying ever since. I could cash out now for a modest gain, but why would I do that when we are going to the moon?

ok, sorry brg444.
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August 03, 2015, 09:34:16 PM
 #29766

the crisis has breached the hull:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/03/investing/puerto-rico-default/
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August 03, 2015, 09:46:51 PM
 #29767


Uh... you do realize this is just some jo dad with a stupid reddit user name, not the Winklevii.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 03, 2015, 09:51:26 PM
 #29768

and gold will be at $400

maybe paper gold. You'll never get any gold that you can hold nowhere near that price.
In fact if BTC goes todamoon again and PM stay depressed I will stack some more phyzz.

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August 03, 2015, 10:01:09 PM
 #29769

and gold will be at $400

maybe paper gold. You'll never get any gold that you can hold nowhere near that price.
In fact if BTC goes todamoon again and PM stay depressed I will stack some more phyzz.

still a gold bug?

since when can you get a better price at your local bullion dealer than what's priced on comex?
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August 03, 2015, 10:42:35 PM
 #29770

In my opinion this (a couple of months +/-) is the bottom in PM's, general sentiment is apalling.

https://twitter.com/jessefelder/status/628285488663691264

iCEBREAKER
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August 03, 2015, 11:51:50 PM
 #29771

the Cripplecoiners all but admitted that it is not a technical limitation that they are worried about

the last thing these guys want to do; SHARE.


You are exaggerating again; Team 1MB has not "all but admitted" any such thing.  To the contrary:



How quickly you forget your weeks of shilling for 20MB Gavinblocks, only to have that pipe dream #rekt by your ignorance of mining's technical limitations.   Cheesy

And yes, we do want to SHARE the utility of Bitcoin with everyone, even the FSA.  Just not in the naive, unscalable way you want:
Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

Let me draw you a freaking picture, since you are a remarkably slow learner of this subject matter:

"everyone gets to write into the holy ledger" = equality of outcome = economic impossibility = BAD

"everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain" = equality of opportunity = economic rationality = GOOD


By promoting equality of outcome and denigrating equality of opportunity, you appoint yourself Generalissimo Frappuccino of the Free Shit Army.

Is that clear enough?  I am fully capable of explaining in even more excruciating detail if you still don't get it.   Kiss

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 11:57:34 PM
 #29772

the Cripplecoiners all but admitted that it is not a technical limitation that they are worried about

the last thing these guys want to do; SHARE.


You are exaggerating again; Team 1MB has not "all but admitted" any such thing.  To the contrary:



How quickly you forget your weeks of shilling for 20MB Gavinblocks, only to have that pipe dream #rekt by your ignorance of mining's technical limitations.   Cheesy

And yes, we do want to SHARE the utility of Bitcoin with everyone, even the FSA.  Just not in the naive, unscalable way you want:
Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

Let me draw you a freaking picture, since you are a remarkably slow learner of this subject matter:

"everyone gets to write into the holy ledger" = equality of outcome = economic impossibility = BAD

"everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain" = equality of opportunity = economic rationality = GOOD


By promoting equality of outcome and denigrating equality of opportunity, you appoint yourself Generalissimo Frappuccino of the Free Shit Army.

Is that clear enough?  I am fully capable of explaining in even more excruciating detail if you still don't get it.   Kiss


nah, you've done enough explaining.  you're just greedy.  plain and simple.
iCEBREAKER
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August 04, 2015, 12:11:45 AM
 #29773

growth?  what f*cking growth?:

Weren't you listening when Gavin told us "the financial crisis is over" thanks to binge-watching of Broadchurch, Wolf Hall and Peaky Blinders?  Those show are so good (especially in 1080) they saved the world economy from petrodollar collapse!  Hooray!

The f*cking growth is right here bro:



and here:



 Cool Cool Cool

We will all soon be running BitcoinSX nodes with 20MB++ Gavinblocks, thanks to the fibre-to-the-screen broadband infrastructure AMZN and NFLX will be deploying...any...second...now...

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
tvbcof
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August 04, 2015, 12:18:02 AM
 #29774


By promoting equality of outcome and denigrating equality of opportunity, you appoint yourself Generalissimo Frappuccino of the Free Shit Army. ...

I have to beg forgiveness for employing the (rather hilarious) term 'generalissimo' in association with the 'Free Shit Army' without looking up the definition.  A 'generalissimo' is actually the supreme commander of all forces; not just the 'army' so the word doesn't make sense in this context.

So our dear friend cypherdoc would be more accurately described as 'Generalissimo Frappuccino of the Free Shit Nation' since clearly that is how he imagines himself.  In reality he's just another pinko as you correctly describe, and a slimy shill for at least one entity and possibly more.


iCEBREAKER
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August 04, 2015, 12:30:01 AM
 #29775

Let me draw you a freaking picture, since you are a remarkably slow learner of this subject matter:

"everyone gets to write into the holy ledger" = equality of outcome = economic impossibility = BAD

"everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain" = equality of opportunity = economic rationality = GOOD


By promoting equality of outcome and denigrating equality of opportunity, you appoint yourself Generalissimo Frappuccino of the Free Shit Army.

Is that clear enough?  I am fully capable of explaining in even more excruciating detail if you still don't get it.   Kiss


nah, you've done enough explaining.  you're just greedy.  plain and simple.

Of course you attack my motivation when you have nothing to say about the economics of Marxist equality of outcome vs capitalist equality of opportunity.

The impossibility of equal outcomes is exactly why the FSA always wants moar free shit.  And you want to subsidize them moar, by further externalizing the costs of eternal spam tx storage and rebroadcast to full node operators.

Regarding greed, it is in hindsight now obvious how silly the Redditurd mob's reasoning about Gavinblocks was.

In Gavinista logic, increasing the blocksize by a factor of 20 would magically grow Bitcoin's user base by the same multiple, and by Metcalfe's network effect, each Bitcoin would suddenly be worth 20^2 times more.  Too bad that turned out to be a load of BS.   Tongue

And you call me greedy?  LOL, I'm the only other person (besides your lawyer and the judge) in the entire universe speaking out against the forcible taking and redistribution of your LeBronCoin hoard, in spite of the fact I would materially benefit from such actions.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
iCEBREAKER
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August 04, 2015, 12:45:52 AM
 #29776

I've tried really hard to try and see the opposing POV but I come up short every time, and I think that's because I can't understand the philosophy behind making BTC some elitist tool when it seemed right from the outset that it was anything but.

If that makes me part of the "free-shit" army, then so be it. I'm not (yet) so morally bankrupt that I think that my well being can only come at the expense of others. That's what cripplecoin sounds like, thats why I don't want any part of it.

You aren't trying that hard if you can't read and understand this fairly simple, single sentence summation of the opposing POV:

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

Where in Davout's statement is the "moral bankruptcy?"  All I see is economic literacy and an understanding of the technical limitations of scaling Bitcoin I/O.

Where in Davout's statement is the desire for well being coming "at the expense of others?"  All I see is a workable plan for radical inclusion ("everyone gets to benefit"), albeit not in the manner preferred by those with atrociously paltry understandings of Bitcoin and economics.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
rocks
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August 04, 2015, 01:46:18 AM
 #29777

justus, all

it seems that awareness of the need to introduce economic incentives for services provided by full nodes are rising among devs community, see this thread on the btc dev mailing list:

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/009879.html

let's see how core devs will react to this idea.

How would this work if you issue (say) one txn per day on average?  I mean, wouldn't it take a month or even a year before the SPV client summed up enough use to make it worth committing the txn?  Are there risks to having a payment channel or LN connection open for these durations?

To me the economic incentives for full nodes have always been obvious.

In the end full nodes will be services that charge a fee for SPV clients to access. i.e. if you want to connect to the network as a leacher (which is fine) the only peers you will be able to access will charge nominal small amounts to do so.

In this model it is likely that we would have a variety of full nodes types
a) Private business nodes - i.e. Nodes run by entities such as coinbase, bitpay, amazon, etc as a method to verify transactions themselves. After certain bandwidth limits it is likely these nodes will not provide data upload to just anyone
b) P2P services - i.e. Nodes that are run as for profit services that charge some market based amount for SPV clients.
c) NGO type nodes - i.e. Nodes run by non-profits for the general community (MIT node, EFF node, etc).

The incentive structure does not need to be put into the protocol, market dynamics on their own will create the proper incentive structure. In other words if it becomes too difficult for your average person to run a node or if there are not enough nodes to provide data upload for free, then a market will create on its own to fulfill this need.

The ignorance of Bitcoin's current crop of "board of director" types regarding the nature of free markets is both highly ironic and sad.
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August 04, 2015, 04:20:21 AM
 #29778

and gold will be at $400

maybe paper gold. You'll never get any gold that you can hold nowhere near that price.
In fact if BTC goes todamoon again and PM stay depressed I will stack some more phyzz.

still a gold bug?

since when can you get a better price at your local bullion dealer than what's priced on comex?

I don't think he was speaking of the comparative cost of local/comex. I think he was speaking of the comparative value of cold hard metal in hand vs. a piece of paper claiming ownership rights, irredeemable when the collapse comes.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.
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August 04, 2015, 05:13:56 AM
 #29779


The ignorance of Bitcoin's current crop of "board of director" types regarding the nature of free markets is both highly ironic and sad.

Indeed. They remind me of those goldbugs who think we don't need a market in money because gold already won.

Bitcoin has a long way before becoming the world settlement layer. That shit is not free  Smiley

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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August 04, 2015, 06:02:03 AM
 #29780

...

The incentive structure does not need to be put into the protocol, market dynamics on their own will create the proper incentive structure. In other words if it becomes too difficult for your average person to run a node or if there are not enough nodes to provide data upload for free, then a market will create on its own to fulfill this need.

The ignorance of Bitcoin's current crop of "board of director" types regarding the nature of free markets is both highly ironic and sad.


Yes, agreed. From the small-block crowd, to the 21m-cap-needs-inflation crowd, there's a distressing lack of appreciation for how markets tend to find viable equilibria...

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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