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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1954025 times)
justusranvier
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August 07, 2014, 04:22:51 PM
 #10301

that's not necessarily true either.  with small blocks and fewer tx's, fees would increase substantially (hundreds of dollars) to hopefully compensate for diminishing block rewards.  if Bitcoin is used as a world reserve currency, then tx volumes wouldn't have to be high and could be used to settle international balance of payments btwn nations.
Those two conditions are mutually exclusive.

Few advantages an altcoin might have could overcome Bitcoin's network effect, and a three or four order of magnitude reduction in transaction fees is one of them.
Unlike traditional banking where clients have only a few account numbers, with Bitcoin people can create an unlimited number of accounts (addresses). This can be used to easily track payments, and it improves anonymity.
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HeliKopterBen
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August 07, 2014, 04:42:12 PM
 #10302

The main chain would be more of a backbone chain being used to settle side chains and other major transactions periodically.  Bitcoin would be primarily used as a store of value and transfer of major value.  This is in line with you thoughts of bitcoin being a reserve currency.  We shall see how it plays out.
That can't work.

Mining has to be paid for via usage fees, not the block subsidy. The only way that works is if the cost is amortized over an very high transaction volume.

Usage would be higher at much higher rates of adoption, especially as a reserve currency status, even as a backbone currency.  As a reserve currency many major transactions would compete to get into a block at 1mb limit, increasing usage fees and almost completely cutting out any spam.  At that state the block size limit may have to be increased still. 


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Again, forcing most transactions off-chain also denies the benefits of Bitcoin to most of the world's population.

Why would most of the world's population not have just as much access to off-chain solutions as they do to bitcoin directly?  I realize m of n oracle systems are not completely decentralized but they should be decentralized enough and they would be completely digital and global.




Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
justusranvier
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August 07, 2014, 04:53:16 PM
 #10303

Why would most of the world's population not have just as much access to off-chain solutions as they do to bitcoin directly?  I realize m of n oracle systems are not completely decentralized but they should be decentralized enough and they would be completely digital and global.
If it was possible to build an off-chain transaction system that provides the same properties as Bitcoin, then we'd just use what ever that system was and abandon Bitcoin entirely.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 04:54:21 PM
 #10304

that's not necessarily true either.  with small blocks and fewer tx's, fees would increase substantially (hundreds of dollars) to hopefully compensate for diminishing block rewards.  if Bitcoin is used as a world reserve currency, then tx volumes wouldn't have to be high and could be used to settle international balance of payments btwn nations.
Those two conditions are mutually exclusive.

Few advantages an altcoin might have could overcome Bitcoin's network effect, and a three or four order of magnitude reduction in transaction fees is one of them.

well, that's not how things are evolving.

Bitcoin continues to outpace all altcoins no matter what they've promised.  and that's despite Bitcoin's 1MB limit.
justusranvier
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August 07, 2014, 05:07:11 PM
 #10305

Bitcoin continues to outpace all altcoins no matter what they've promised.  and that's despite Bitcoin's 1MB limit.
Because it hasn't become an issue yet.

But ultimately if Bitcoin isn't the best medium of exchange it won't be a store of value.

"Store of value" is an emergent property of a good medium of exchange. It's not something that can be separated as if it were independent.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 05:28:57 PM
 #10306

Banks' Failure on 'Living Wills' Frays Relations With Regulators

http://online.wsj.com/articles/regulators-banks-optimism-killed-living-wills-1407367909?mod=rss_markets_main
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 05:29:27 PM
 #10307

Because it hasn't become an issue yet.


maybe it will never become an issue.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 05:36:42 PM
 #10308

huh, this is a new one:

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/isp-bitcoin-theft/
oda.krell
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August 07, 2014, 05:42:32 PM
 #10309

Bitcoin continues to outpace all altcoins no matter what they've promised.  and that's despite Bitcoin's 1MB limit.
Because it hasn't become an issue yet.

But ultimately if Bitcoin isn't the best medium of exchange it won't be a store of value.

"Store of value" is an emergent property of a good medium of exchange. It's not something that can be separated as if it were independent.

I don't think the two are necessarily linked (gold, for s.o.v. without m.o.e. functionality, local currencies in high inflation regions for m.o.e. functionality without that of s.o.v.). However, it simply seems like an unnecessary risk to me to not provide that "service" (functioning as medium of exchange, scaled up to global demand) when the costs of a solution (sliding size) seem relatively low to me.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 05:57:55 PM
 #10310

this too is actually good news:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/the_us_intellig.html
justusranvier
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August 07, 2014, 06:12:03 PM
 #10311

I don't think the two are necessarily linked (gold, for s.o.v. without m.o.e. functionality, local currencies in high inflation regions for m.o.e. functionality without that of s.o.v.).
How good is gold as a store of value, really?
jmw74
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August 07, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
 #10312

Bitcoin continues to outpace all altcoins no matter what they've promised.  and that's despite Bitcoin's 1MB limit.
Because it hasn't become an issue yet.

But ultimately if Bitcoin isn't the best medium of exchange it won't be a store of value.

"Store of value" is an emergent property of a good medium of exchange. It's not something that can be separated as if it were independent.

I haven't given this too much thought yet, but after seeing the document on "Rapidly Adjusted Micropayments to a Predetermined Party", it sure sounded like an off-chain solution to me.

It's just that the solution given in the article was a specific use case, I couldn't see any reason it could not be made generic to include more than two parties, and and adjustment period of however long you want.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party

For example, seems plausible you could implement changetip.com's off-chain ledger using this.  Each user might need 2 channels, since tips are not monotonically increasing (you might send a tip too).

Isn't the whole point of being "off chain" is that you know certain parts of the transaction graph are isolated from the rest, and that you can simply reduce them using some other mechanism and just transmit the final result to the bitcoin network?  That seems like exactly what the above document describes.


Edit: ah, the article says you can adjust both ways if nLockTime'd transactions can now enter the memory pool.  I don't know if that's enabled now or not. I think I read that locktime works but replacement does not.
justusranvier
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August 07, 2014, 06:16:00 PM
 #10313

That's part of another positive feedback loop:

1. Low morale makes potential whistleblowers more likely to speak out.

2. The management response to whistleblowing is to clamp down on internal dissent and increase employee monitoring. They turn their surveillance increasingly inward to stop the find and stop the whistleblowers.

3. These responses reduce morale in the agency.

4. Goto 1

The NSA is caught in a death spiral from which it might not recover. Eventually I assume that 100% of their resources will be devoted to internal surveillance.
ssmc2
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August 07, 2014, 06:19:55 PM
 #10314

I don't think the two are necessarily linked (gold, for s.o.v. without m.o.e. functionality, local currencies in high inflation regions for m.o.e. functionality without that of s.o.v.).
How good is gold as a store of value, really?

Not so good if you bought in summer of 2011  Tongue
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 06:24:14 PM
 #10315

That's part of another positive feedback loop:

1. Low morale makes potential whistleblowers more likely to speak out.

2. The management response to whistleblowing is to clamp down on internal dissent and increase employee monitoring. They turn their surveillance increasingly inward to stop the find and stop the whistleblowers.

3. These responses reduce morale in the agency.

4. Goto 1

The NSA is caught in a death spiral from which it might not recover. Eventually I assume that 100% of their resources will be devoted to internal surveillance.

you mean no more budget for 51% attacks?
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 06:26:41 PM
 #10316

this doesn't look so good for the most powerful EU nation:

cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
 #10317

EU, why u no lend?

The red lines show the absolute numbers in millions of euro, the blue lines show the annual rate of change in percent.



Chalkbot
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August 07, 2014, 06:33:06 PM
 #10318

The NSA is caught in a death spiral from which it might not recover. Eventually I assume that 100% of their resources will be devoted to internal surveillance.

LOL.   I just imagined a large, secretive government agency, who's purpose is to monitor itself and everyone in it to prevent word of its existence getting out. It was funny because there's a good chance this agency already exists... I know we spend money on less productive ideas.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 06:34:05 PM
 #10319

Spain:



Italy:



National Bank of Greece:

cypherdoc
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August 07, 2014, 07:15:48 PM
 #10320

VIX getting ready to jack off again:

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