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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022643 times)
cypherdoc
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November 13, 2014, 06:26:56 PM
 #16741

good news for goldbugs!  looks who's backing their new currency with gold?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/isis-unveils-its-new-gold-backed-currency-remove-itself-oppressors-money-system

but i thought Bitcoin was their preferred currency?
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November 13, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
 #16742

brg444, so why can't core devs confine their testing of fast tx or anon using the federated server model with 2wp as opposed to changing source code via SPVproof?

They could, but SPVproof is conceptually more secure & decentralized.

but at more risk from unknown side effects and conflict of interest.

Server centralization is a very real risk.

Unknown side effects are exactly that, unknown.

As for the conflicts of interest, they might exist but I really don't believe and foresee how they could be used to effectively damage Bitcoin in the long run. I'm sorry but I think your theory of core devs negatively influencing the development of Bitcoin in the favor of Blockstream is bonkers.

How is the federated model so centralized?  Couldn't you use a set of semi-trusted oracles like Gavin has described.  This model may not be completely decentralized, but may be decentralized enough.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
So... could we take that interesting idea and map it onto Bitcoin? Could somebody create "Bit-thereum" on top of Bitcoin as it exists today?

The answer is "yes,"
if we're willing to replace "verified by the entire network" with "verified by a set of semi-trusted 'oracles'."

That's cheating, though, isn't it? We're not entirely decentralized if we are trusting eleven contract-verifying-services not to collude (or all get hacked) to violate conditions encoded in some contract(s).

It is cheating a bit... but all of the really interesting complex contracts I can think of require data from outside the blockchain. Like the BTC/USD exchange rate on some future date (for blockchain-enforced futures contracts).

Then I ask you what is the point of Bitcoin's proof of work right? Why not use semi-trusted oracles to verify transactions?

Gavin's got it right, semi-trusted oracles dont make money, that's why we have PoW, PoW is designed to scale to the value of the money not the assets used to store the money, semi-trusted oracles are just decentralized conduits, and can be made trustless.

Either way, the blockstream devs say they will test the federated peg first.  We may find that model is good enough and no changes are needed to the core protocol.

i can only hope.
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November 13, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
 #16743

over and over and over.  sheesh:

“Bitcoin is two things, right? Bitcoin is a currency and it is a way to create a network. And the two today aren’t associated. People (ask): ‘Are you going to accept the coin?’ And the answer is, we’ll think about it when our clients actually want to use it. So when we have banks and merchants saying ‘Hey, our clients really want to pay in Bitcoin,’ then it becomes a meaningful question for us to answer. Until then, it is just theoretical would we do it, and we have – I forget a couple of hundred currencies or 170 currencies that we do business in. If we chose another one, we can certainly do that.”

http://www.pymnts.com/news/2014/visa-ceo-confirms-tokens-as-new-network-revenue-stream/#.VGS1MlVn3qc

read the article.  it talks extensively about "tokens".
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November 13, 2014, 07:10:48 PM
 #16744

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



when you're swapping BTC for CC through the 2wp aren't you effectively "shorting" BTC and going "long" CC?
Adrian-x
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November 13, 2014, 07:37:36 PM
 #16745

brg444, so why can't core devs confine their testing of fast tx or anon using the federated server model with 2wp as opposed to changing source code via SPVproof?

They could, but SPVproof is conceptually more secure & decentralized.

but at more risk from unknown side effects and conflict of interest.

Server centralization is a very real risk.

Unknown side effects are exactly that, unknown.

As for the conflicts of interest, they might exist but I really don't believe and foresee how they could be used to effectively damage Bitcoin in the long run. I'm sorry but I think your theory of core devs negatively influencing the development of Bitcoin in the favor of Blockstream is bonkers.

How is the federated model so centralized?  Couldn't you use a set of semi-trusted oracles like Gavin has described.  This model may not be completely decentralized, but may be decentralized enough.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
So... could we take that interesting idea and map it onto Bitcoin? Could somebody create "Bit-thereum" on top of Bitcoin as it exists today?

The answer is "yes,"
if we're willing to replace "verified by the entire network" with "verified by a set of semi-trusted 'oracles'."

That's cheating, though, isn't it? We're not entirely decentralized if we are trusting eleven contract-verifying-services not to collude (or all get hacked) to violate conditions encoded in some contract(s).

It is cheating a bit... but all of the really interesting complex contracts I can think of require data from outside the blockchain. Like the BTC/USD exchange rate on some future date (for blockchain-enforced futures contracts).

Then I ask you what is the point of Bitcoin's proof of work right? Why not use semi-trusted oracles to verify transactions?

Gavin's got it right, semi-trusted oracles dont make money, that's why we have PoW, PoW is designed to scale to the value of the money not the assets used to store the money, semi-trusted oracles are just decentralized conduits, and can be made trustless.

Either way, the blockstream devs say they will test the federated peg first.  We may find that model is good enough and no changes are needed to the core protocol.

Woot! I missed that memo  Smiley I'm holding again.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 13, 2014, 07:49:45 PM
 #16746

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



when you're swapping BTC for CC through the 2wp aren't you effectively "shorting" BTC and going "long" CC?
No it's all Bitcoin if I understand the counter argument, you can change back 1:1 any time (or 1:10 and 10:1)

Yes if you see value in CC. But as one SC proponent points out there won't be value there at least not with TC - apparently one should consider it a scam even it it does everything it says on the box, so it's not a good test case for SC.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 13, 2014, 07:53:31 PM
 #16747

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



when you're swapping BTC for CC through the 2wp aren't you effectively "shorting" BTC and going "long" CC?
No it's all Bitcoin if I understand the counter argument, you can change back 1:1 any time (or 1:10 and 10:1)

Yes if you see value in CC. But as one SC proponent points out there won't be value there at least not with TC - apparently one should consider it a scam even it it does everything it says on the box, so it's not a good test case for SC.

every time you trade your USD for BTC, you're effectively shorting USD and going long BTC.  seems like the same here.

seems like the peg only guarantees value for BTC<-->scBTC
Melbustus
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November 13, 2014, 09:32:17 PM
 #16748

over and over and over.  sheesh:

“Bitcoin is two things, right? Bitcoin is a currency and it is a way to create a network. And the two today aren’t associated. People (ask): ‘Are you going to accept the coin?’ And the answer is, we’ll think about it when our clients actually want to use it. So when we have banks and merchants saying ‘Hey, our clients really want to pay in Bitcoin,’ then it becomes a meaningful question for us to answer. Until then, it is just theoretical would we do it, and we have – I forget a couple of hundred currencies or 170 currencies that we do business in. If we chose another one, we can certainly do that.”


The VISA CEO's willful ignorance aside, I'm seeing more people come out in defense of blockchain/currency inseparability lately, and some people who previously thought incorrectly on this issue are turning around. Hopefully that trend continues.





Granted in a different context, but I'm reminded of the Hive-wallet Founder/CEO's insufferable insistence on using the term "token" instead of money or coin. He has a backwards and obnoxious philosophical position on the nature of crypto money, and it influences their business decisions. I, for one, will never touch HiveWallet, as that company's existence, given their philosophy, is a net negative to the bitcoin ecosystem.


Reminder for those who missed it the first time around:

We at Hive agree that so-called crypto-currency is not money
...
We of Earth love our novelty, and I in particular find the idea of artificial digital scarcity so painfully fucking boring that I'm going to spend my time making your world view more difficult to sustain, as both a career and a hobby.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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November 13, 2014, 10:03:10 PM
 #16749

...  I'm seeing more people come out in defense of blockchain/currency inseparability lately, and some people who previously thought incorrectly on this issue are turning around ...

and some people(I do not mean you) cannot understand, that the same ledger (with same information) can be written in many languages on many different medias and can use many different formats. ... but in the end the information is the same ( who owns BTC and how many )   => I do not see it as  blockchain/currency separation
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November 13, 2014, 10:14:32 PM
 #16750

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



I LOL'd at that one too.
Share the same Market Cap?

So kind of them to share that, lol.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 13, 2014, 10:25:54 PM
 #16751

brg444, what larger economic/political effects do you think a Silk Road SC will have on Bitcoin?

If you are able to see "Silk Road SC" then it was not done right.
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November 13, 2014, 10:27:46 PM
 #16752

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



when you're swapping BTC for CC through the 2wp aren't you effectively "shorting" BTC and going "long" CC?
No it's all Bitcoin if I understand the counter argument, you can change back 1:1 any time (or 1:10 and 10:1)

Yes if you see value in CC. But as one SC proponent points out there won't be value there at least not with TC - apparently one should consider it a scam even it it does everything it says on the box, so it's not a good test case for SC.

every time you trade your USD for BTC, you're effectively shorting USD and going long BTC.  seems like the same here.

seems like the peg only guarantees value for BTC<-->scBTC
The way I read it:
The scBTC is a token for BTC in the meaningful sense of the word token.  To the extent that CC is a sort of digitally divisible token wallet, and it carries the scBTC, it isn't really shorting BTC.   It is more of a coin within a coin, or more accurately a token for a coin within a digitally divisible crypto coin that acts as a wallet for scBTC.  (if that makes any sense at all)
To the extent that CC is diluted however, it is shorting BTC.

Extra credit if you can distill that into 140 characters.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 13, 2014, 10:29:13 PM
 #16753

Bitcoin is money - I am with cypher on this one.

Speaking of currencies, this good article suggests the yen is the first to go, of the big currencies. I see no flaws in this article:

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/bojs-yen-trashing-will-ignite-a-tital-wave-of-asian-devaluation-and-deflation/

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November 13, 2014, 10:48:20 PM
 #16754

over and over and over.  sheesh:

“Bitcoin is two things, right? Bitcoin is a currency and it is a way to create a network. And the two today aren’t associated. People (ask): ‘Are you going to accept the coin?’ And the answer is, we’ll think about it when our clients actually want to use it. So when we have banks and merchants saying ‘Hey, our clients really want to pay in Bitcoin,’ then it becomes a meaningful question for us to answer. Until then, it is just theoretical would we do it, and we have – I forget a couple of hundred currencies or 170 currencies that we do business in. If we chose another one, we can certainly do that.”


The VISA CEO's willful ignorance aside, I'm seeing more people come out in defense of blockchain/currency inseparability lately, and some people who previously thought incorrectly on this issue are turning around. Hopefully that trend continues.





Granted in a different context, but I'm reminded of the Hive-wallet Founder/CEO's insufferable insistence on using the term "token" instead of money or coin. He has a backwards and obnoxious philosophical position on the nature of crypto money, and it influences their business decisions. I, for one, will never touch HiveWallet, as that company's existence, given their philosophy, is a net negative to the bitcoin ecosystem.


Reminder for those who missed it the first time around:

We at Hive agree that so-called crypto-currency is not money
...
We of Earth love our novelty, and I in particular find the idea of artificial digital scarcity so painfully fucking boring that I'm going to spend my time making your world view more difficult to sustain, as both a career and a hobby.


Dont u get VISA position?   If is separable who runs the servers secure the chain?  VISA of course.  And they'll charge 2 to 5 pct per txn for the service.  TBH a blockchain backend would be a lot better than a sql db to store financial txns... so it is not all bad.
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November 13, 2014, 11:45:14 PM
 #16755

take a look at the @Truthcoin perspective.  note how he wants to "share" our value:

https://twitter.com/Truthcoin/status/532538170030948354



when you're swapping BTC for CC through the 2wp aren't you effectively "shorting" BTC and going "long" CC?
No it's all Bitcoin if I understand the counter argument, you can change back 1:1 any time (or 1:10 and 10:1)

Yes if you see value in CC. But as one SC proponent points out there won't be value there at least not with TC - apparently one should consider it a scam even it it does everything it says on the box, so it's not a good test case for SC.

every time you trade your USD for BTC, you're effectively shorting USD and going long BTC.  seems like the same here.

seems like the peg only guarantees value for BTC<-->scBTC
The way I read it:
The scBTC is a token for BTC in the meaningful sense of the word token.  To the extent that CC is a sort of digitally divisible token wallet, and it carries the scBTC, it isn't really shorting BTC.   It is more of a coin within a coin, or more accurately a token for a coin within a digitally divisible crypto coin that acts as a wallet for scBTC.  (if that makes any sense at all)
To the extent that CC is diluted however, it is shorting BTC.

Extra credit if you can distill that into 140 characters.

I see it the same way, but in addition, to the extent to which there is a reserve, a constant value created in theTC ecosystem where the BTC never comes out, is a short on BTC.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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November 14, 2014, 12:14:09 AM
 #16756

Reminder for those who missed it the first time around:

We at Hive agree that so-called crypto-currency is not money
...
We of Earth love our novelty, and I in particular find the idea of artificial digital scarcity so painfully fucking boring that I'm going to spend my time making your world view more difficult to sustain, as both a career and a hobby.

Thanks for posting that quote.

I saw it the first time around, but didn't bookmark or otherwise save the link.

I was looking for it recently because I wanted to show somebody what a douchebag that guy is and why never to use their wallet.
Melbustus
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November 14, 2014, 04:27:55 AM
 #16757

Reminder for those who missed it the first time around:

We at Hive agree that so-called crypto-currency is not money
...
We of Earth love our novelty, and I in particular find the idea of artificial digital scarcity so painfully fucking boring that I'm going to spend my time making your world view more difficult to sustain, as both a career and a hobby.

Thanks for posting that quote.

I saw it the first time around, but didn't bookmark or otherwise save the link.

I was looking for it recently because I wanted to show somebody what a douchebag that guy is and why never to use their wallet.


No problem.

Let's also not forget this:


...
...or am I just getting trolled here? (not kidding).


Ok, I figured it out. Here are some quotes from Wendell, from the following interview: https://soundcloud.com/epicenterbitcoin/eb22

Quote from: WendellDavis link=https://soundcloud.com/epicenterbitcoin/eb22 date=1403756946

[1:45]
I...got a little bit obsessed with bitcoin starting in 2009...

Well, I mean, the unfortunate part is that I simply followed it as a curiosity, and not not so much as like oh well this is a great investment opportunity.
...
So I missed an opportunity to be one of those guys who like, you know, 300,000+ or what have you. But...I, you know, just didn't have the vision, I suppose, to see that it would really become something real.

[3:25]
I didn't think for a minute that it would actually be successful.

There it is... No matter what he's consciously/sub-consciously convinced himself in the last 5 years about whether or not bitcoin deserves to have most of the crypto value, the fact that he so thoroughly missed the boat has gotta eat at him. He was one of the few lucky enough to be on Metz-Dowd in 2009 and actually see the discussion as it happened. He had the technical know-how and intellectual curiosity to appreciate it. Yet he didn't act. He could've been set for life. He's an entrepreneur - he could've self-funded whatever projects truly interested him... Or he could've launched his own fund... The scale of that regret has got to bother him, so he's constructed this weird belief system to negate it. It probably happened slowly and sub-consciously over time, which means it's really ingrained.

It's funny, I got the sense from his response to me that he was fighting another battle, and was pissed about something else. That sentence of his where he f-bombed was just too needlessly aggressive and vengeful to make any sense in context. Now I understand him a little better.


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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November 14, 2014, 04:38:57 AM
 #16758

out of curiosity does anyone know of someone in Bitcoin World who mentioned M-Pesa for remittances before i did here?  i think this was the first:


I'd like to see a video targeted towards left-leaning people that argues from their world-view-- why the existing monetary system is unfair and benefits a rich elite at the expense of the working masses.  How Bitcoin can change that and be a People-Powered money, backed not by empty promises from rich bankers but by the strength and trust of the person-to-person Bitcoin Community.  How friends and neighbors using Bitcoin can keep money in local communities.  How using Bitcoin lets you interact with people all over the world, promoting peace and understanding.  How it is better for the environment than gold mining or trucking coins and cash to and from stores and banks.

Well, I think that's what someone called "narratives".

We still need a narrative for anonymity, though.

i think the anonymity part of BTC should be downplayed.  sure its a symbol for the geek network as well as the illegal trade folks but won't be for the masses who are the critical part of this acceptance equation.  the best way to think of how BTC will be used in the future is to study M-Pesa in Kenya and why it took off like a rocket shot.  those ppl just needed an easy, inexpensive way to move money around the country w/o physically delivering it like they had been (donkey ride cross country) forced to do b/c of theft.  they don't care that Safaricom/Vodafone knows their identity when sending money; they just want to get the money to family and friends.  most of BTC use will be this way.
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November 14, 2014, 07:42:20 AM
 #16759

good news for goldbugs!  looks who's backing their new currency with gold?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/isis-unveils-its-new-gold-backed-currency-remove-itself-oppressors-money-system

but i thought Bitcoin was their preferred currency?

Don't worry.. it probably will be next week.. just wait.. almost guaranteed "ISIS.. blah blah loves Bitcoin"

The next 24 hours are critical!
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November 14, 2014, 09:27:26 AM
 #16760

Dont u get VISA position?   If is separable who runs the servers secure the chain?  VISA of course.  And they'll charge 2 to 5 pct per txn for the service.  TBH a blockchain backend would be a lot better than a sql db to store financial txns... so it is not all bad.
Financial transaction DBs aren't typically SQL and are more often journaling DBs like the block chain already, but without PoW as they trust their systems.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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