[XMR] Monero Speculation

[Hueristic]

I am not saying that I'd want to make my transactions public. Rather, there isn't enough incentive to switch to monero JUST because you can keep such trivial transactions private. It's not a big enough motivation for most people.

@^
Of course I admit I have things I never want other people to find out about me. In fact, in comparison with the world (not the crypto community) I believe I lean towards the side that values privacy. That said, if in the future there is technology that can completely eliminate crimes before they are committed, because everything about the criminal's mindset is known, and that a computer can analyze exactly what I want, for example, what movie would interest me the most at that particular time, instead of having me search google for recommendations, read dozens of them then end up getting "tricked" by a misleading review/rec and wasting my time on mediocre movies.

I can certainly see benefits in having info collected.

The net sum of data collection is to build a prison around you 24/7 monitoring. It is the slow creep of it that is the insidious part most just don't see. It's just like slowly boiling a frog, it sits there and dies. Those born today are born into a prison they cannot even see. Have you ever been stopped by a cop and asked where your going, where your going to and why? These are infringements of your liberty and what if you don't want to answer them or lie and they have your surveillance at their fingertips? Maybe we should all just carry our movement papers with us. Letting these infringements pass without fighting them is doing yourself and more importantly your descendants inexorable harm.

[generalizethis]

Front page of r/bitcoin: www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2z4b6j/pay_any_bitcoin_address_anonymously_with_monero/

[opennux]

I have to say that I really don't, and I think the vast majority (or at least a good number of ordinary folks) of the world doesn't. More important things to care about.

That said, I guess I can see that some people might care about such things, which does give it value. Is it enough to make monero mainstream? Only time will tell.

It's good that you can see that some see value in it. I think more and more people will see value in it. I agree and disagree with smooth at the same time. I do think that too many people are complacent, agreed. However, at the same time I think that the vast majority of people simply do not know how much spying is going on (be it from official bodies, contractors or just third party companies selling big data). Especially the latter. Very few outside the field knows this is going on. It's hardly ever covered in the mainstream media. We surmise though that it will be a larger and larger issue when people see the ramifications of it.

But let's break it apart a bit and spell it out from my rhetoricals:

- You wouldn't want your health insurance knowing your chocolate bar habits, they might raise your premium because of it. They might even refuse to take you on as a customer.
- If your boss knows your stopping your birth control, he might let you go. Maybe he doesn't want to pay for maternity leave. It would be mighty convenient to do that before you fell pregnant.
- If a merchant knows exactly what you've been willing to pay for items before he will be able to charge different prices to customers. And charge you more.
- If your government isn't friendly towards free speech (as we see governments all over the world move towards) and you hold a political opinion that is against the powers that be, your existence in life can be very troublesome. (this is such deep subject so I will not go into it more).
- If you run a little corner-shop and your customers can see what you pay for prices, they might just go straight to the source. Your competitors might be able to see it too. They can see your suppliers and the prices you pay. It's not necessarily good for your business.
- If people can see that you went to a psychiatrist, and take specific meds you could for example risk not being invited to job interviews, or have that date you were going on cancelled, or..or..
- If you were running a local diner, and customers could see that other people were getting special deals (might be your frequent patronage), they would start asking for cheaper meals - or go somewhere else.
- The last one of my previous questions spoke for itself almost. If rogue elements (be it thieves or whatever) can see when you go to the movies, on holidays, go out shopping they can arrange for a house visit at those times. But not just that - they can see WHAT you are shopping - hey you shop for nice things let's steal that..! - and plan accordingly.)

What's that old song called? "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.."

[futureofbitcoin]

- You wouldn't want your health insurance knowing your chocolate bar habits, they might raise your premium because of it. They might even refuse to take you on as a customer.
A: I wouldn't want the government to know I'm a thief. Or a serial killer. I simply think that perhaps that information SHOULD be provided to insurance companies. It's only morally right to do so, just as public companies should not hide any deal-breaking info to potential investors.

- If your boss knows your stopping your birth control, he might let you go. Maybe he doesn't want to pay for maternity leave. It would be mighty convenient to do that before you fell pregnant.
Then perhaps you should find a different job.

- If a merchant knows exactly what you've been willing to pay for items before he will be able to charge different prices to customers. And charge you more.
If you're willing to pay more, that's your choice.

- If your government isn't friendly towards free speech (as we see governments all over the world move towards) and you hold a political opinion that is against the powers that be, your existence in life can be very troublesome. (this is such deep subject so I will not go into it more).
I think there should be a limit to freedoms. But yes, this subject is too deep, and your point does have some merit.

- If you run a little corner-shop and your customers can see what you pay for prices, they might just go straight to the source. Your competitors might be able to see it too. They can see your suppliers and the prices you pay. It's not necessarily good for your business.
Uh, I don't know if you've ever worked as a store clerk. I have, and I can tell you that I was really surprised how people are willing to pay 2 or even 3x the price to support their local store than to drive 5 minutes to the supermarket to save that money. You don't need complete freedom of information to know that convenience stores charge more than Walmart.

- If people can see that you went to a psychiatrist, and take specific meds you could for example risk not being invited to job interviews, or have that date you were going on cancelled, or..or..
Again, hiding that kind of information is not ethical, in my opinion. If your date/employer really wants you, they wouldn't care. It is beneficial for you as it weeds out those who really care about YOU, or those who want someone that isn't you.

- If you were running a local diner, and customers could see that other people were getting special deals (might be your frequent patronage), they would start asking for cheaper meals - or go somewhere else.
Same point as the convenience store; this simply isn't necessarily true. Amazingly enough. I'm definitely one of those people that would go somewhere cheaper and couldn't imagine people who didn't; but I've seen with my own eyes.

- The last one of my previous questions spoke for itself almost. If rogue elements (be it thieves or whatever) can see when you go to the movies, on holidays, go out shopping they can arrange for a house visit at those times. But not just that - they can see WHAT you are shopping - hey you shop for nice things let's steal that..! - and plan accordingly.)
But there would be protection agencies that would've caught those "rogue elements" before they acted.

What's that old song called? "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.."
Perhaps. Or maybe you don't know what you're missing out until you have it.

I don't plan on convincing you. As I said, I do value my privacy. I'm not anal about it.

[opennux]

I have to say that I really don't, and I think the vast majority (or at least a good number of ordinary folks) of the world doesn't. More important things to care about.

It is actually pretty clear you are correct, if you look at how the whole commercial and government spying industry has developed. It's not the case that people aren't aware of it, but most really and truly don't care.

I think people care, its just that they feel powerless to stop it. Kind of like "yeah, but what are yah gonna do?" I guess the answer would be to use cash for everything, but for some people they don't feel safe or for whatever reason there's a combination of things that outweighs the lack of privacy.

This is another very valid point. People feel powerless, they don't know how to so they just close their eyes and ears and go about their life the best they can.

The other points I was making in my other post was that people do not think the scenarios through. When you explain the ramifications the lack of privacy potentially will have in each scenario, people start paying more attention.

[Joshuar]

Honestly, I believe most people simply dont/didn't know of all the spying going on in their lives. Before Snowden came out, relatively no one(Even "techies") knew of the intense spying that was going on. But, the general public is becoming more aware of things like this, and scenarios like what happened in Cyprus isn't helping traditional fiat/banking either.

[opennux]

- You wouldn't want your health insurance knowing your chocolate bar habits, they might raise your premium because of it. They might even refuse to take you on as a customer.
A: I wouldn't want the government to know I'm a thief. Or a serial killer. I simply think that perhaps that information SHOULD be provided to insurance companies. It's only morally right to do so, just as public companies should not hide any deal-breaking info to potential investors.

- If your boss knows your stopping your birth control, he might let you go. Maybe he doesn't want to pay for maternity leave. It would be mighty convenient to do that before you fell pregnant.
Then perhaps you should find a different job.

- If a merchant knows exactly what you've been willing to pay for items before he will be able to charge different prices to customers. And charge you more.
If you're willing to pay more, that's your choice.

- If your government isn't friendly towards free speech (as we see governments all over the world move towards) and you hold a political opinion that is against the powers that be, your existence in life can be very troublesome. (this is such deep subject so I will not go into it more).
I think there should be a limit to freedoms. But yes, this subject is too deep, and your point does have some merit.

- If you run a little corner-shop and your customers can see what you pay for prices, they might just go straight to the source. Your competitors might be able to see it too. They can see your suppliers and the prices you pay. It's not necessarily good for your business.
Uh, I don't know if you've ever worked as a store clerk. I have, and I can tell you that I was really surprised how people are willing to pay 2 or even 3x the price to support their local store than to drive 5 minutes to the supermarket to save that money. You don't need complete freedom of information to know that convenience stores charge more than Walmart.

- If people can see that you went to a psychiatrist, and take specific meds you could for example risk not being invited to job interviews, or have that date you were going on cancelled, or..or..
Again, hiding that kind of information is not ethical, in my opinion. If your date/employer really wants you, they wouldn't care. It is beneficial for you as it weeds out those who really care about YOU, or those who want someone that isn't you.

- If you were running a local diner, and customers could see that other people were getting special deals (might be your frequent patronage), they would start asking for cheaper meals - or go somewhere else.
Same point as the convenience store; this simply isn't necessarily true. Amazingly enough. I'm definitely one of those people that would go somewhere cheaper and couldn't imagine people who didn't; but I've seen with my own eyes.

- The last one of my previous questions spoke for itself almost. If rogue elements (be it thieves or whatever) can see when you go to the movies, on holidays, go out shopping they can arrange for a house visit at those times. But not just that - they can see WHAT you are shopping - hey you shop for nice things let's steal that..! - and plan accordingly.)
But there would be protection agencies that would've caught those "rogue elements" before they acted.

What's that old song called? "You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone.."
Perhaps. Or maybe you don't know what you're missing out until you have it.

I don't plan on convincing you. As I said, I do value my privacy. I'm not anal about it.

Well you certainly won't. You make no sense in your rebuttals? As in, it's nonsensical what you write. Stop trolling.

"I value my virginity. But I'm not anal about it.." See how that works?

[futureofbitcoin]

Now you're just using ad hominem. If you can't be open-minded enough to understand that you might not be 100% correct, I've nothing more to say to you.


Which is good, since this is really going off topic. I guess the point of all this is that there are obstacles for monero taking off mainstream, IF there are a significant number of people who aren't completely paranoid about their privacy. It doesn't really matter who's right or wrong, the result is that because these people don't have sufficient reason to use monero, monero is potentially losing out. For monero to achieve real mainstream use, there is a need to convince people that they really do need the privacy monero provides (or some other benefit monero has over bitcoin and other alts) for the particular purpose they're using it.

A very popular advice that I've been seeing a lot regarding building start-ups, websites etc, is how a lot of people have a "build it and they will come" mentality, and how it simply doesn't work that way.

I think that very much applies here, and to crypto in general. People need to be convinced of its benefits. It doesn't matter how beneficial it is. It really doesn't even matter IF it's beneficial at all. People will use it if they THINK it's beneficial, at least until they realize that it's actually BS.

[opennux]

Now you're just using ad hominem. If you can't be open-minded enough to understand that you might not be 100% correct, I've nothing more to say to you.


Which is good, since this is really going off topic. I guess the point of all this is that there are obstacles for monero taking off mainstream, IF there are a significant number of people who aren't completely paranoid about their privacy. It doesn't really matter who's right or wrong, the result is that because these people don't have sufficient reason to use monero, monero is potentially losing out. For monero to achieve real mainstream use, there is a need to convince people that they really do need the privacy monero provides (or some other benefit monero has over bitcoin and other alts) for the particular purpose they're using it.

A very popular advice that I've been seeing a lot regarding building start-ups, websites etc, is how a lot of people have a "build it and they will come" mentality, and how it simply doesn't work that way.

I think that very much applies here, and to crypto in general. People need to be convinced of its benefits. It doesn't matter how beneficial it is. It really doesn't even matter IF it's beneficial at all. People will use it if they THINK it's beneficial, at least until they realize that it's actually BS.

I apologise for being obtuse. It was uncalled for.

However, I still don't think your arguments in the post above (Edit: this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=753252.msg10781325#msg10781325) hold any water. They are simply nonsensical.


Let me try to explain:


- You wouldn't want your health insurance knowing your chocolate bar habits, they might raise your premium because of it. They might even refuse to take you on as a customer.
A: I wouldn't want the government to know I'm a thief. Or a serial killer. I simply think that perhaps that information SHOULD be provided to insurance companies. It's only morally right to do so, just as public companies should not hide any deal-breaking info to potential investors.

There is quite the difference between being a criminal and having a sweet tooth which leads to all sorts of health issues, which is expensive for an insurance company. If you eat 10 chocolate bars a day, every day, eventually you will get diabetes. You are not morally or legally obliged to inform them about your sugar-intake, nor should you be. You are not a public company. You will not have any investors in you.

- If your boss knows your stopping your birth control, he might let you go. Maybe he doesn't want to pay for maternity leave. It would be mighty convenient to do that before you fell pregnant.
Then perhaps you should find a different job.
That's not a thing and that's not how the world works. I am arguing that people might play minority report on your ass.

- If a merchant knows exactly what you've been willing to pay for items before he will be able to charge different prices to customers. And charge you more.
If you're willing to pay more, that's your choice.
Sure, but it's more convenient not to. Again, did you get the point? I'm not sure?

- If your government isn't friendly towards free speech (as we see governments all over the world move towards) and you hold a political opinion that is against the powers that be, your existence in life can be very troublesome. (this is such deep subject so I will not go into it more).
I think there should be a limit to freedoms. But yes, this subject is too deep, and your point does have some merit.
The goal posts changes as society progresses. Back in medieval times chemistry was illegal. Not a freedom everyone should have. Books could be illegal.
But it's not just that. It is hindering people in activism - because they are scared of repercussions from government, family, community, religious groups or whatever. Remember that the reason you can do chemistry and read a book or be on the internet or even do bitcoin is because of activism. Many things that are deemed trivial today used to be illegal and you would get persecuted for acting in that sphere.


- If you run a little corner-shop and your customers can see what you pay for prices, they might just go straight to the source. Your competitors might be able to see it too. They can see your suppliers and the prices you pay. It's not necessarily good for your business.
Uh, I don't know if you've ever worked as a store clerk. I have, and I can tell you that I was really surprised how people are willing to pay 2 or even 3x the price to support their local store than to drive 5 minutes to the supermarket to save that money. You don't need complete freedom of information to know that convenience stores charge more than Walmart.

Whichever store. It's beside the point. But I do agree a lot are willing to support the local shop, regardless of price, myself included. It's getting off-topic

- If people can see that you went to a psychiatrist, and take specific meds you could for example risk not being invited to job interviews, or have that date you were going on cancelled, or..or..
Again, hiding that kind of information is not ethical, in my opinion. If your date/employer really wants you, they wouldn't care. It is beneficial for you as it weeds out those who really care about YOU, or those who want someone that isn't you.

Are we living on the same planet? You won't even get to the interview. You will be weeded out way before. You are written off before they get to know you. It's cool that you are YOU and they should care about you, and that you are a really nice guy and very skilled at your work, but alas, they will never find out because the HR lady flagged you in their system as "psychiatry-treatment/anti-depressants".

- If you were running a local diner, and customers could see that other people were getting special deals (might be your frequent patronage), they would start asking for cheaper meals - or go somewhere else.
Same point as the convenience store; this simply isn't necessarily true. Amazingly enough. I'm definitely one of those people that would go somewhere cheaper and couldn't imagine people who didn't; but I've seen with my own eyes.
Maybe it's a bad example, I can agree to that. But I don't get your refute?

- The last one of my previous questions spoke for itself almost. If rogue elements (be it thieves or whatever) can see when you go to the movies, on holidays, go out shopping they can arrange for a house visit at those times. But not just that - they can see WHAT you are shopping - hey you shop for nice things let's steal that..! - and plan accordingly.)
But there would be protection agencies that would've caught those "rogue elements" before they acted.
What?! Doesn't make sense..

[cAPSLOCK]

Decision point.  Double top?  Or extended rally?

[Anotheranonlol]

Decision point.  Double top?  Or extended rally?

Tour de Corse

[TrueCryptonaire]

Looks like the rally has slowed down a bit.
It is always good if the rally is not too violent. I prefer long term bull market over fast pump and even faster dump (like we have experienced in Monero). I hope this will change and the overall trendline will become bullish and not doing it too fast but in a way that the market can take it without creating a bubble. We will see if this is possible. Usually at some point of the rally the speculators enter to the market and create the bubble.

[jehst]

Looks like there's strong support at above .002

[G2M]

Looks as if we're seeing a situation where an increase in price correlates to an increase in bid support.

[bitcoinvest]

looks like XMR stable up trend is here and is here to stay...

[0nlyBTC]

Have my friday check handy. When should I pull the trigger?

[Anon136]

bitcoinwisdom moved xmr to the top of the list. any theories why? maybe its by how often the link is clicked?

[smooth]

bitcoinwisdom moved xmr to the top of the list. any theories why? maybe its by how often the link is clicked?

24 hour volume rank

[darlidada]

bitcoinwisdom moved xmr to the top of the list. any theories why? maybe its by how often the link is clicked?

i think it is. i've been clicking a lot the last week

[Anon136]

bitcoinwisdom moved xmr to the top of the list. any theories why? maybe its by how often the link is clicked?

24 hour volume rank

sure enough right you are. i looked at the today volume and the 7 day volume but for some reason didnt look at the 24 volume. silly.