BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg

[dzimbeck]

hello bitbay community  

my first post here I think. Been looking at the project for some time now have a small amount of bitbay and bought some more after reading the op. Still wondering if I should buy more but also still have lots of reading to do on the project.

I already saw lots of cool features that are working in the system. And when I see this from a technical view current prices make no sense. So what is going on? I get the feeling the budget for the project is not big? Is it via donations? Are there any plans for marketing? Cause this is a already working platform with all kind of features so why isnt it used? Why does so little people know about it? Bitbay should be more in the spotlight. Hype is a swear word to some but bitbay could use some I think. So many things overhyped but bitbay has something to show for no vaporware or just roadmaps.

The roadmap says that you are planning to make a mechanism the control the supply to meet demand in the future. For various reasons. Bit hard to understand, but if you are a trader or investor you dont want a stable price(maybe in the end). I get that as a seller or buyer you want the stability since they otherwise would have to sell every bitbay for bitcoin or something else. But here seems to be a contradiction ? traders wants volume and price swings and investors wants volume too because that attracts interest etc and price is more likely go higher in the end with ups and downs of course. So how will this work with this price stability mechanism?

Also is there any incentive why a higher price for bitbay would be needed if the platform would be more popular? Like you have with factom for example?

is it possible for someone that sells something and gets paid in bitbay to convert it to bitcoin? And sorry last lazy question why should people go for bitbays marketplace instead of openbazaar for example


also I also think that a nice lay out of the marketplace is important people are used to it and are expecting those things

thanks

Hey so the control of price is decentralized. This is a decentralized peg unlike Tether. And this peg can move up and down in price. This is similar to an economic "crawling peg". The idea is the supply is dynamic so unlike Bitcoin with it's inflation we can deflate by freezing coins. This allows us to defend against dumps. This is why so many investors who are economic buffs are so excited about this project.

The whole point of the peg is as demand rises the supply can do so organically. And if a pumper tries to go too far high they will lose if we inflate. So the community collectively controls this by competing for a price they think will fit best. They can vote via algorithm or custom.

We don't know why this isn't top 10 for that matter. We deal with a tremendous amount of adversity and propaganda. However, whatever we face we can overcome with spreading the word and marketing. As you said this is real so why would a vaporware product be above ours must be corrected. Tell friends show people this thing really works.

The BitBay serves as insurance for the deal with double deposit. So there is no reason you can't use these markets and pay in Bitcoin or even Fiat for that matter. We are a much, much better platform than open bazaar because these contracts don't have escrow. OB has to guess when someone lies in a dispute which will mean many sellers and buyers will get burned. We offer a solution to a real world problem... deception. The double deposit contracts force honesty by keeping it to the 2 parties involved with the deposit as the disincentive for breach.

And thanks, those were excellent questions.

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[anahata]

What happened to you guys?  This used to be a big part of my portfolio but I got out about a month ago.  I'm not trying to be negative I am just curious is all.  Sounded like a project with big potential but you guys aren't even top 100 anymore 

Lot of scammy bullshit ico coins with fake volume and fake caps infesting the top 100.

I mean look at the top100 i hardly recognise any projects there.

Once people click on to the fact they have no solid development teams and their roadmaps are dreams and talk bullshit they will collapse.

I do think we need 2 things that we do not have

1. an incentive to accumulate and hold (could argue peg and roadmap are the reasons )
2. an easy way for other dev teams to build apps and websites for specialised services on top of bitbay core and a way for them to fund raise and issue their own tokens.


Even without number 2 if we complete our road map the project should be top10 minimum.

The top 20 right now is a joke. We have worthless coins like ETC/BCH and fake pumped up coins like IOTA/Qtum/EOS etc. Once these new shitcoins dump,  they will dump for good. The hype is around new coins, few months back it was gnosis/golem and now EOS/omisego. Pendulum swings both ways, waiting for it to swing the other way.

Meanwhile fill your bags.

[Munti]

hello bitbay community  

But here seems to be a contradiction ? traders wants volume and price swings and investors wants volume too because that attracts interest etc and price is more likely go higher in the end with ups and downs of course. So how will this work with this price stability mechanism?

thanks

Welcome to BitBay Bamsterdam  

I see David has answered most of your questions, so I will focus on the one he forgot.

Consumers and merchants want stable prices. The volatility you find in crypto is one of the biggest obstacles for adoption. We will allow price to move, but reduce the volatility. That way consumers and merchants can start using Bay, and thus push price up.Also, some investors want to have part of their portofolio less volatile.
For the traders we have a very interesting alternative: frozen coins. They can be moved, but with a delay. We are discussing how much of a delay right now, but expect it to be 1-3 months. Those coins are therefor not suitable to use for shopping, and will likely have a lower value than liquid coins. For a trader that can be heaven. Buy cheap frozen coins, wait for them to become liquid, and cash in.

[Preventative.Measures]

Does anyone else not see the issue with double deposits?  I was being a jerk about it a few posts back, but seriously who will put down double the money?  Think about it.  In this fast paced world who would want to lock up XX amount for days or weeks as an item is enroute?  Digital crypto transactions will have their place on bay, but methinks the marketplace will be the biggest draw.

So will the average person put down a double deposit on an item for $3.98?  No, because they're trying to get the best price and putting down $8 for something that costs $4 just doesn't make sense...

...I mean, yes, it does make sense to a rational, sane, smart person, but the market is none of those things.

And I'm sure as hell not going to put down $500 on a $500 item, just not happening.

...But wait, you say.  The deposit doesn,t have to be 100% all of the time?  Well great then an unscrupulous buyer will rack up a bit of rep purchasing junk, will rip a seller off (getting the item at a discount if the collateral isn't 100%) and then disappear.  Word of mouth would kill it.

These are just some of the glaring deficiencies I see with a collateral/deposit system.  100% collateral is offputting, anything less than 100% collateral invites fraud.

The feel good vibe around here is great...but I've been in more than one real life situation where a project looks great on paper but comes apart at the seams in execution all because obvious problems were glossed over in an effort to get it done.

[dzimbeck]

Does anyone else not see the issue with double deposits?  I was being a jerk about it a few posts back, but seriously who will put down double the money?  Think about it.  In this fast paced world who would want to lock up XX amount for days or weeks as an item is enroute?  Digital crypto transactions will have their place on bay, but methinks the marketplace will be the biggest draw.

So will the average person put down a double deposit on an item for $3.98?  No, because they're trying to get the best price and putting down $8 for something that costs $4 just doesn't make sense...

...I mean, yes, it does make sense to a rational, sane, smart person, but the market is none of those things.

And I'm sure as hell not going to put down $500 on a $500 item, just not happening.

...But wait, you say.  The deposit doesn,t have to be 100% all of the time?  Well great then an unscrupulous buyer will rack up a bit of rep purchasing junk, will rip a seller off (getting the item at a discount if the collateral isn't 100%) and then disappear.  Word of mouth would kill it.

These are just some of the glaring deficiencies I see with a collateral/deposit system.  100% collateral is offputting, anything less than 100% collateral invites fraud.

The feel good vibe around here is great...but I've been in more than one real life situation where a project looks great on paper but comes apart at the seams in execution all because obvious problems were glossed over in an effort to get it done.

They don't put down "double" the money, the term is a misnomer. If you are dealing with someone you don't trust they simply put a bond equal to the item value. If you are buying an item for $4 and don't have $4 for a deposit then you have a bigger problem.

Also you can do custom deposits. I'm sure you know and realize this. If you trust the buyer then let him put down $1 deposit on a $4 item. There is a reputation system and deposits are flexible. This is an attempt to fix a major problem in society. That's why I'm so stubborn. Let's make the world a little better.

An "unscrupulous buyer" who keeps blowing up deals will immediately be noticed(it shows on the chain). After two exploded deals people will start requiring higher bonds. And a fool and his money will soon be parted. He will go broke quick.  These are the types of morons we are attempting to eliminate. It's much better than rewarding him for scamming isn't it? If you want to hop on E-Bay and get a chargeback or an empty box more power to you. The odds of that are many times higher than you losing on this platform.

The only people who argue this are usually people who are difficult to begin with(playing devils advocate really doesn't need a reward, the devil needs no extra help) and the type of people who will find themselves losing on business deals. Also scammers tend to complain about this platform (i wonder why). Honest people need a part of society to trade with each other. That tiny little corner is here. If you are honest and want to join in please do.

If you feel like you can blow up an escrow I will happily join you in an unbreakable contract. We will see if you have the balls to do that.

[Preventative.Measures]

I don't know why you're calling me out with that sort of language.  I sincerely want this project to succeed.  I also don't think you quite understand my concerns as you don't address them directly.  I feel, in practice, no one will buy inexpensive items because it's silly to put down a deposit on a $4 item.  And I feel, in practice, no one will buy expensive items because putting a chunky deposit down might be out of possibility for many, or may seem absurd or unfair.  In a very real way, people are losing money by having it tied in limbo and I feel most understand that on a visceral level even if it's not something everyone can articulate.

Regarding a scamming buyer, whats to stop someone from opening burner accounts and getting a bit of rep with the intention of ripping off a seller who doesn't require a full deposit?  I didn't understand your response?

Who backs the bonds?  Who foots the bill if the bond buyer renegs?

I ask simply how can you deliver in practice, how does it work..and have yet to get a straight, concise answer that makes sense when applied to the chaos of real-world markets and irrational actors.

Where's the whitepaper?  For what passes as a whitepaper these days you can [and should] outline the broadstrokes for idiots like me.  Saying you don't want people to copy your work is a silly reason not to draft a whitepaper.  It's like that wannabe writer everyone knows who won't share his idea cause someone will steal it!!!    Fear of mimicry is really just the fear someone else will do it better.  It speaks to a lack of confidence in the execution.

If this thing is almost done why can't you or any of your myriad supporters explain how double deposit works in practice, and why people will choose to use it over existing players in this space.  Zero fees is a good place to start but it's not enough to entice the first wave of people IMO.

I'm not up on the etiquette around here...in fact it's a lack of general etiquette that keeps me away.  If this thread is merely to pat one another on the back then forgive my intrusion.  However I assumed this was a place to engage in informed discussion.  I'm not a rich person and chose to back this project with what few spare shekels I have because I found the goals relatable and respected the perseverance and seeming integrity of the dev.  Starting to feel like I've made a mistake.

[dzimbeck]

I don't know why you're calling me out with that sort of language.  I sincerely want this project to succeed.  I also don't think you quite understand my concerns as you don't address them directly.  I feel, in practice, no one will buy inexpensive items because it's silly to put down a deposit on a $4 item.  And I feel, in practice, no one will buy expensive items because putting a chunky deposit down might be out of possibility for many, or may seem absurd or unfair.  In a very real way, people are losing money by having it tied in limbo and I feel most understand that on a visceral level even if it's not something everyone can articulate.

Regarding a scamming buyer, whats to stop someone from opening burner accounts and getting a bit of rep with the intention of ripping off a seller who doesn't require a full deposit?  I didn't understand your response?

Who backs the bonds?  Who foots the bill if the bond buyer renegs?

I ask simply how can you deliver in practice, how does it work..and have yet to get a straight, concise answer that makes sense when applied to the chaos of real-world markets and irrational actors.

Where's the whitepaper?  For what passes as a whitepaper these days you can [and should] outline the broadstrokes for idiots like me.  Saying you don't want people to copy your work is a silly reason not to draft a whitepaper.  It's like that wannabe writer everyone knows who won't share his idea cause someone will steal it!!!    Fear of mimicry is really just the fear someone else will do it better.  It speaks to a lack of confidence in the execution.

If this thing is almost done why can't you or any of your myriad supporters explain how double deposit works in practice, and why people will choose to use it over existing players in this space.  Zero fees is a good place to start but it's not enough to entice the first wave of people IMO.

I'm not up on the etiquette around here...in fact it's a lack of general etiquette that keeps me away.  If this thread is merely to pat one another on the back then forgive my intrusion.  However I assumed this was a place to engage in informed discussion.  I'm not a rich person and chose to back this project with what few spare shekels I have because I found the goals relatable and respected the perseverance and seeming integrity of the dev.  Starting to feel like I've made a mistake.

Sorry but you initiated with poor etiquette. Regardless I'm happy to answer your questions. Again... I did respond we have had these types of questions before over the years. I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything. This is a great system. Please forgive me if I was uncouth certainly wasn't my intention.

So to respond... there is a rep system. Why would nobody buy an inexpensive item? A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine. We have had tons of items sold this way. Also we have done in practice very large transactions up to 5,000 dollars. Mostly cash deals coins for cash. There is no company you can trust to properly handle cash deals as even Coinbase is known to shut down and confiscate funds. This works, it's peer to peer and makes theft profitless. And we have used it this way, successfully (we really need a testimonial video).

Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here. Everything revolves around the evidence of your previous deals.

For example, lets say you did 10 deals but lost the 11th. Okay so now that shows on the blockchain (not the contract but the explosion and public key)... people will know immediately you lost your last deal. They may require a higher bond. If you lose 2 deals in a row, then they may even demand higher bonds and so forth.

Okay you asked "who foots the bill"... nobody. This ELIMINATES middle men. There is no judge, no juror who by the way are usually wrong and just guess. There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. When a contract blows up BOTH buyer and seller lose funds.

Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

Nobody loses money by having funds in a contract, they get it back when the deal is over. As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because their daily volume of sales will not usually exceed what they have in the bank. Power sellers who sell 1000s of items a year only maybe sell a few items a day, which based on their net would be nothing (probably not even 5% of the money in their bank).

A power seller would probably not be asked for a high deposit either even lessening that burden further. Think of this like a trust building exercise. We find two strangers, one is a thief one is honest. They enter traditional double deposit, the theif has no chance to win with a profit, he concedes to accept it. After the thief has done 1000 deals, well his deposit requirement may cut down to only 10%... but even so, he is STILL losing if he defaults.

There is really no profit incentive to cheat regardless of deposit levels. When I said "go into a DDE contract with me, if you think you have the guts to blow one up I challenge you to" it wasn't meant to put you off. On the contrary, you can see yourself the power of this system and sometimes seeing is believing. I certainly wouldn't blow up a contract(unless I was forced to) and to my knowledge no Bitbay contract has ever blown up.

Whitepaper is here:
https://davtonia.com/blackhalo/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/whitepaper_twosided.pdf

It's not on the site although thanks we should add it, this is my paper from 2014, I've been around for a long time man. BitHalo(my other software) was the first smart contracts on any blockchain a year before Ethereum.

I'm definitely NOT afraid of mimicry let along anything. It's been like this for a while now, we have a working product and it's just a matter of fact that crypto has no chargebacks, there is nobody to save people from theft. We have a solution, I think it should be the industry STANDARD. Consider almost 50% of all bitcoins have been stolen to 3rd party escrow hacks! Finally we have solved a problem challenging mankind for millennia. Do I expect it to change overnight? No, but I've been fighting until my fingers bleed to educate people on it. That is because it's for a cause bigger than myself. This definitely isn't about me. It's about an idea and "Ideas are bulletproof". It's important and it is a proposal to change how things are agreed to. Agreement is the foundation of almost everything in society. If we can just get that to favor honest people it would be an awesome shift in paradigm.

Nobody is really patting anyone on the back. Sure there are some very nice things said here and I fully appreciate it to the highest degree. And yes we have a very bullish and supportive community but they have been around for years. A lot of the people here could answer these questions on their own, they know it by heart.

So don't get the wrong impression my friend. I'm extremely busy and I will come by, answer things and sometimes put a new spin on my answer to show the various perspectives and angles to why this is such an important change. The community can answer these questions and they want to engage in debate (as long as it's not against people who have bad intentions) which I'm assuming your intentions are great. So yes please keep the questions coming. Nobody here is afraid of debate and it keeps us engaged and helps improve the product. Just realize when I'm here responding I'm not coding. So I have to do my job too.

FYI, if I don't answer, I'm busy coding or managing our slack so if someone wants to chime in please do.

[HVCC]

We are going to get a nice video produced for the website that will explain the basics in a succinct manner. That should help get people up to speed about the basics more quickly in the future!

[ambazonia]

Bitbay has a very huge vision and have accomplished most of their promises, the features bitbay currently have implemented are awesome and the dev are adding more over time. But in my view, for bitbay to receive adoption from people other than those in within the crypto community, they will have to worker harder towards eliminating the need for users to download the whole blockchain before being able to use the market.

as of now, this is one of the highest working product in the market. thumb up !!

[Figatko]

Bitbay has a very huge vision and have accomplished most of their promises, the features bitbay currently have implemented are awesome and the dev are adding more over time. But in my view, for bitbay to receive adoption from people other than those in within the crypto community, they will have to worker harder towards eliminating the need for users to download the whole blockchain before being able to use the market.

as of now, this is one of the highest working product in the market. thumb up !!

Yes, there are two reasons nobody wants to use BitBay to buy/sell something:
1. Horrible UI.
2. No one in his right mind will download the blockchain or try to learn what's "bootstrap". I mean common people, byers, not crypto enthusiasts.

You have to download Ethereum blockchain to user their service and it's like 100 times the size of ours. We had an issue with Mac sync that was fixed in the recent build.

As for the UI... calling it "horrible" doesn't really tell me anything. We have a wizard, help boxes, tons of things including tutorial videos, templates etc.

What does it need fancy graphics or something? Should it sing to you? I mean in reality people use microsoft word and it doesn't have 3d animations and cater to every graphical need.

There is a difference between UX and UI. Our markets use a table but that's needed for when you change from Sales to Coins for Cash for example or when you switch to auctions. Each category changes the feel of the markets and the columns on the table.

We can get around sync but at the cost of your security and the security of the blockchain. I'm not sure we need that liability. However, it is a good idea and it's considered something to tackle. In BitHalo I don't make users download the chain. The problem is altcoins don't have access to things like API requests for unspent transactions. On chainz they make you get an API key so we need our own block explorer which requires multiple servers so users can know there is know their inputs and values are accurate. This is peoples money we are talking about, it's not a trivial thing.

Yes I meant fancy graphics or something. People got used to just click and go to beautiful sites where they can find everything they want. But OK, they learn about BitBay and that it has some advantages, they bother to install the software and wow, waiting to syncronise for a pair of days and watching the poor graphic design.
These two things work together. It would be great if at least one was changed: having a lite client or fancy graphics or anything solving this.
Bitbay is ready for a long time to accept traders, wasn't it so a year ago? But still sometimes I look and see noone there or a pair of coin offers from some community member.

Okay well you are right. And those two things are on the list. We need fancy graphics, the market table itself can be given a great style. Forms and buttons can be given style. Font's and so much can be altered. I would need a graphics guy to work with our skin in order to do that.

Currently we have the background transparency which looks okay. There is a nice gradient on the menu and various other things so we at least have something to build on.

"Fast sync" is one of the first things on the list. Just realize it will have to be optional because users sacrifice security when trusting a block explorer. Also, if too many people do it, then security is reduced and the chain is easier to attack.

So in order to set that up we would need multiple online block explorers similar to electrum. The next update is exotic spend and the fork, after that is templates. So this is already in my notes.

[cryptohunter]

too many shitcoins and scams being pumped right now and is draining money from the real projects.
this will eventually change it will just take some time.

[R-J-F]

too many shitcoins and scams being pumped right now and is draining money from the real projects.
this will eventually change it will just take some time.

That's for sure. Actually, I see the ICO madness draining millions (billions?) from the ALTS as the buying frenzy continues. Don't think there's much to do about it but wait for it to settle down. unfortunately, continued growth in that sector will draw more regulation which can be good, or bad depending which heads are doing the thinking & regulating...

[vlom]

the best is that the price will soon be back at the point i will buy more. last time bought at 360sats. and i still not sold these coins.

[R-J-F]

the best is that the price will soon be back at the point i will buy more. last time bought at 360sats. and i still not sold these coins.

Perhaps. It's good to see both sides of the value perspective. Lower price, time to buy, higher price time to sell or, at least in my case, hold... 

[Preventative.Measures]

Read the whitepaper and found some of the concepts extremely interesting insofar as digital trade is concerned.  There is little mention of dealing with physical goods in the real world ie: ebay's current province.  So, have I got this wrong then?  Is bitbay primarily geared toward plugging holes in crypto trade/digital trade, with exchange of physical goods ancillary to that end?

A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine.

A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is cumbersome and illogical to most normies.

Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here.

I can think of about a million examples where $2500 on $10K would be impossible, or cause undue harm/distress to the one putting down the deposit.

The issue I'm seeing here is why a 42 year old house wife would sit down to buy her widgits and baubles and on one hand you have ebay...click and buy...and on the other bitbay where you have to put down a deposit on top of the purchase price.  As far as most people are concerned when money leaves their account its gone, even if there's a promise it's coming back.  So the housewife would choose ebay and IMO so would most buyers given what I'm seeing here.  And where the buyers go the sellers follow, not the other way around.

You haven't yet addressed why people can't create burner accounts to game the system.  You go into detail regarding an example that seems to focus on one person/one account.  Is there anything stopping one person from holding multiple accounts?  Is there anything stopping that person from using one of those accounts to build up rep buying junk with the intention of scamming a seller on a large item (ie, only having to pay the fractional deposit on an item worth four times as much, etc).  Will rep be weighted based on dollar/bay value of transactions completed, or is it (let's say) one rep point regardless of whether it's a $4 or $10K transaction?

There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. ... Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

That's not justice.  At all.

As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because...

It is a big deal due to inflation.  It's why no one keeps money in a savings account, because it loses money.  That's why I suggested you need some sort of incentive for people to keep their funds locked up.  You've killed their liquidity for days or weeks and will be guranteeing them a loss on the locked funds (albiet in practice probably an inconsequential amount).  So, what do they get in return, aside from a completed transaction?

I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything.

Because you're the sole avatar of this project and you're asking for a billion dollars...possibly billions?

I know I must sound like a ballbuster but crypto devs tend to exist in an echo chamber and often have an aspie level of focus on minutiae and sometimes fail to see the forest for the trees.  The positivity around here is fantastic and in truth this isn't really the venue for dissenting opinions.  My ultimate goal is to help strengthen the project by fostering alternative perspectives -- considering all the options.  At worst I make myself look like an ass and everyone gets a laugh.

[jjacob]

the best is that the price will soon be back at the point i will buy more. last time bought at 360sats. and i still not sold these coins.

The problem is that Bitbay is no longer in the top 100 in terms of the market capitalization of altcoins. If we are not in the top 100, we tend to drift unless there is some major development in the coin.

[bamsterdam]

hello bitbay community  

Hey so the control of price is decentralized. This is a decentralized peg unlike Tether. And this peg can move up and down in price. This is similar to an economic "crawling peg". The idea is the supply is dynamic so unlike Bitcoin with it's inflation we can deflate by freezing coins. This allows us to defend against dumps. This is why so many investors who are economic buffs are so excited about this project.

The whole point of the peg is as demand rises the supply can do so organically. And if a pumper tries to go too far high they will lose if we inflate. So the community collectively controls this by competing for a price they think will fit best. They can vote via algorithm or custom.

We don't know why this isn't top 10 for that matter. We deal with a tremendous amount of adversity and propaganda. However, whatever we face we can overcome with spreading the word and marketing. As you said this is real so why would a vaporware product be above ours must be corrected. Tell friends show people this thing really works.

The BitBay serves as insurance for the deal with double deposit. So there is no reason you can't use these markets and pay in Bitcoin or even Fiat for that matter. We are a much, much better platform than open bazaar because these contracts don't have escrow. OB has to guess when someone lies in a dispute which will mean many sellers and buyers will get burned. We offer a solution to a real world problem... deception. The double deposit contracts force honesty by keeping it to the 2 parties involved with the deposit as the disincentive for breach.

And thanks, those were excellent questions.

Alright thank you for answering. Been reading a but more and listened to some radio interviews with you. You seem quite the anarchist on the pirate radio. So the rolling peg is somewhat more clear to me now. When doe you think the rolling pes will be implemented? I know new tech is almost impossible to give time scales on I only ask bc I think before we need lots of marketing and a period of heavy trading volume so we will get the attention of lots of new people.

Some questions didnt got answered and I got some new question when I thought about bitbay this day. First to come back on previous questions how is the budget? How is this arranged? I think bitbay need some serious marketing and therefore is (a lot)  money needed. I'll be willing to donate some if there is some serious effort but with my donation alone this wont get far. Are there any ways to get funding from the pos blocks? Iam not a coder and I realise that this is not something easy to do but with the voting system already in place it could be used for lots of good things what can be developed and funded this way.

Also I am thinking about the double deposit. I get that this may be the only way to force both parties to be honest. But I think regular customers( who dont know and dont care if its the only fair way or not) will not be happy with the double deposits if the want to buy something expensive.. If you want to buy lets say something worth $500-1000 and you finely saved the money together in the past months they maybe dont have the money for the double deposit, cant miss it at the moment or are afried to lose it (when there not familiar with the platform) I get that the reputation system is making this problem better but will not help a new buyer when he starts on the platform which will make  

So why not make (if possible at all) 1 contract for the money, no double deposits, but with the rules of the double deposit. Besides that the buyer has to deposit 10-20% extra on top of the original amount. If the buyer receives an empty box the funds in the contract get burned and both sides lose the money. If the buyer receives its product he agrees the funds will be released to the seller and the buyer gets his 10-20 % on top of the original amount back as incentive for not screwing the seller over when he got his product. This way you wont have to force the buyer to put in a 100% extra on top of the original amount.

Probably missing some points why my example doesnt work, but this was what I was thinking today. Maybe double deposits are the way to a fair market but will be a strange thing for customers and with higher amounts of money it will get tricky since not everyone can afford the double deposit.

hello bitbay community  

But here seems to be a contradiction ? traders wants volume and price swings and investors wants volume too because that attracts interest etc and price is more likely go higher in the end with ups and downs of course. So how will this work with this price stability mechanism?

thanks

Welcome to BitBay Bamsterdam  

I see David has answered most of your questions, so I will focus on the one he forgot.

Consumers and merchants want stable prices. The volatility you find in crypto is one of the biggest obstacles for adoption. We will allow price to move, but reduce the volatility. That way consumers and merchants can start using Bay, and thus push price up.Also, some investors want to have part of their portofolio less volatile.
For the traders we have a very interesting alternative: frozen coins. They can be moved, but with a delay. We are discussing how much of a delay right now, but expect it to be 1-3 months. Those coins are therefor not suitable to use for shopping, and will likely have a lower value than liquid coins. For a trader that can be heaven. Buy cheap frozen coins, wait for them to become liquid, and cash in.

I like the idea of a market for the frozen coins. And I agree what you say but I think before we enter this stage we must have a period of heave trading volume and market swings driving attention and people to bitbay. People dont know bitbay and will not notice if there is nothing done with marketing and if you wont get the snowball effect just once.

[Mr. Regi]

the best is that the price will soon be back at the point i will buy more. last time bought at 360sats. and i still not sold these coins.

The problem is that Bitbay is no longer in the top 100 in terms of the market capitalization of altcoins. If we are not in the top 100, we tend to drift unless there is some major development in the coin.

Well very soon there will be a big update concerning the amount of stake reward and exotic spending, bringing a lot of new features.
So I don't worry too much, in fact the price being so low is a good opportunity to buy even more.
People selling now are the ones who are going to cry, they seriously don't realise the potential of this coin, I feel like it's the only one making some advances on a technological level and not only in the UI or the rewards.
Just wish I had enough btc left aside to buy more

[dzimbeck]

Read the whitepaper and found some of the concepts extremely interesting insofar as digital trade is concerned.  There is little mention of dealing with physical goods in the real world ie: ebay's current province.  So, have I got this wrong then?  Is bitbay primarily geared toward plugging holes in crypto trade/digital trade, with exchange of physical goods ancillary to that end?

A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine.

A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is cumbersome and illogical to most normies.

Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here.

I can think of about a million examples where $2500 on $10K would be impossible, or cause undue harm/distress to the one putting down the deposit.

The issue I'm seeing here is why a 42 year old house wife would sit down to buy her widgits and baubles and on one hand you have ebay...click and buy...and on the other bitbay where you have to put down a deposit on top of the purchase price.  As far as most people are concerned when money leaves their account its gone, even if there's a promise it's coming back.  So the housewife would choose ebay and IMO so would most buyers given what I'm seeing here.  And where the buyers go the sellers follow, not the other way around.

You haven't yet addressed why people can't create burner accounts to game the system.  You go into detail regarding an example that seems to focus on one person/one account.  Is there anything stopping one person from holding multiple accounts?  Is there anything stopping that person from using one of those accounts to build up rep buying junk with the intention of scamming a seller on a large item (ie, only having to pay the fractional deposit on an item worth four times as much, etc).  Will rep be weighted based on dollar/bay value of transactions completed, or is it (let's say) one rep point regardless of whether it's a $4 or $10K transaction?

There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. ... Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

That's not justice.  At all.

As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because...

It is a big deal due to inflation.  It's why no one keeps money in a savings account, because it loses money.  That's why I suggested you need some sort of incentive for people to keep their funds locked up.  You've killed their liquidity for days or weeks and will be guranteeing them a loss on the locked funds (albiet in practice probably an inconsequential amount).  So, what do they get in return, aside from a completed transaction?

I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything.

Because you're the sole avatar of this project and you're asking for a billion dollars...possibly billions?

I know I must sound like a ballbuster but crypto devs tend to exist in an echo chamber and often have an aspie level of focus on minutiae and sometimes fail to see the forest for the trees.  The positivity around here is fantastic and in truth this isn't really the venue for dissenting opinions.  My ultimate goal is to help strengthen the project by fostering alternative perspectives -- considering all the options.  At worst I make myself look like an ass and everyone gets a laugh.

I did explain why they can't create burner accounts... there is a reputation system. A new buyer would have to put up equal deposit. If there was news of some fool blowing up their money then people would start requesting higher deposits. In some cases they may want additional contact info. And when is the last time you set fire to $4?

A small $4 deposit isn't illogical, paying 5-10% to give your $4 to a middle man is illogical. Here you SAVE 5-10% easy on fees. Why wouldn't they use it. Granted we are not at the point to get "normies" in but crypto is a paradigm shift, be patient. We very well could see it happen.

Paying a fraction of a deposit on an item worth 4x for example they STILL lose. If the item is 100 dollars and they pay 25 dollar deposit you are forgetting the payment is ADVANCED too. So they had 125 in escrow, now they have overpaid 125 for a 100 dollar item. For them to fake build a reputation just to LOSE 25 dollars is totally retarded in my humble opinion. The second they default the next seller would not let them put 25% deposit the next seller would require 100% and if they did it again the next seller would want 200%... this person would go poor fast.

It's like you are trying to justify a person setting fire to their own money. You realize by the time a seller does 10 deals they have already made 100% on the saved fees if they average 10% the item value? The odds that some crazy person would start kamikaze is like not even 1/10,000

I think you aren't realizing there are still industries that NEED this. For example the cash for coins business, they need it. They get accounts frozen by coinbase, paypals reversed on localbitcoins, they have the money to put for a deposit and they need a trustworthy platform. This solves it. Then there is people who want to barter. They need this! Bartering under the bridge of trust, never having to touch fiat with the insurance of DDE. Also Telcom where people need to wire money from one country to another, the headache of escrow. These people have millions of dollars (I know, I've spoke to some)... finding the escrow and bank between countries is a big deal, insurance and other things is a hassle. We just cut out that cost and they get it all back after a short time doing business. It's like a solar panel, the deposit may be high but they start seeing major benefits in the future.

There is something you might not be seeing. The normies are not necessarily our target market. There is tons of niche markets that truly don't have trust and need this. They don't have other options. That is where this can start and it will evolve to get accepted by normies after the benefits are seen.

Also punishing both kids is justice, because in my analogy I made the mistake of putting you are a parent. But remove the parent. If two people lie, there is only 3 people that know, the culprit the victim and potentially god(depending on your beliefs). No judge or lawyer or jury knows, it is an utter waste of state resources, courts are dumb, cumbersome and their judgement are usually wrong. The punishment hardly ever fits the crime and victim-less crimes are consistently prosecuted usually against the innocent. This system solves that. It's meant to work even in absence of governments. It reduces the problem to only include the parties that matter. The two INVOLVED. This is far superior to including an arbiter who knows nothing literally has to guess. You should see that this is the perfect system and can't be improved. I will bet that an e-bay arbiter is wrong at least 50% of the time.

This isn't a platform just for e-bay sales. It's sales of goods, employment, barter, trade etc. This can enable binary options and hundreds of other things.

What is this about inflation? Crypto doesn't inflate.

I'm asking for a billion dollars??!??!? Wow you are totally wrong there. Dude anyone who knows me already knows I really am not even in crypto for the money. I'm in it for these ideologies. We think the project should be higher because of the feature list and that there is so many vapor products on the top 20. That's the only reason. Investors want to do well and it does make me happy seeing them do well.

Nah keep looking like an ass, it's appreciated. It's okay this type of dissent is how people learn. But like I said before. Play devils advocate only if you mean it because I'm not so sure the devil needs any more help. 

[dzimbeck]

Alright thank you for answering. Been reading a but more and listened to some radio interviews with you. You seem quite the anarchist on the pirate radio. So the rolling peg is somewhat more clear to me now. When doe you think the rolling pes will be implemented? I know new tech is almost impossible to give time scales on I only ask bc I think before we need lots of marketing and a period of heavy trading volume so we will get the attention of lots of new people.

Some questions didnt got answered and I got some new question when I thought about bitbay this day. First to come back on previous questions how is the budget? How is this arranged? I think bitbay need some serious marketing and therefore is (a lot)  money needed. I'll be willing to donate some if there is some serious effort but with my donation alone this wont get far. Are there any ways to get funding from the pos blocks? Iam not a coder and I realise that this is not something easy to do but with the voting system already in place it could be used for lots of good things what can be developed and funded this way.

Also I am thinking about the double deposit. I get that this may be the only way to force both parties to be honest. But I think regular customers( who dont know and dont care if its the only fair way or not) will not be happy with the double deposits if the want to buy something expensive.. If you want to buy lets say something worth $500-1000 and you finely saved the money together in the past months they maybe dont have the money for the double deposit, cant miss it at the moment or are afried to lose it (when there not familiar with the platform) I get that the reputation system is making this problem better but will not help a new buyer when he starts on the platform which will make  

So why not make (if possible at all) 1 contract for the money, no double deposits, but with the rules of the double deposit. Besides that the buyer has to deposit 10-20% extra on top of the original amount. If the buyer receives an empty box the funds in the contract get burned and both sides lose the money. If the buyer receives its product he agrees the funds will be released to the seller and the buyer gets his 10-20 % on top of the original amount back as incentive for not screwing the seller over when he got his product. This way you wont have to force the buyer to put in a 100% extra on top of the original amount.

Probably missing some points why my example doesnt work, but this was what I was thinking today. Maybe double deposits are the way to a fair market but will be a strange thing for customers and with higher amounts of money it will get tricky since not everyone can afford the double deposit.

Yea I'm a bit of an anarchist. It was after a realization that laws aren't morals. It is not immoral to be outside naked. It is illegal. And yet it is immoral to go after a person who is naked in public, threaten to shoot them if they don't come with you, then throw them in a jail cell. So the irony is cops and military the the immoral ones. Sure there is exceptions like punishing people who murder but even in that case, how can you prove guilt. Why can't people be taught to be peaceful? Why is the world not peaceful. Why is our media pure violence. Most laws are absurd and even more absurd is the method of punishment used. Two wrongs don't make a right, the jury and judge is usually wrong too. Also their judgement is under the authority of man and let all men be liars.

The world could be very beautiful without government. Things were always better in the past. For a man to trade freedom for security he will soon find he has neither.

The peg should be implemented within a year hopefully 6 months... people anticipate Q1 2018 and this will depend on when i get these templates done.

The budget... well since the founders left we have had to fund a lot of things ourselves. Sometimes the community helps and sometimes I fund from my personal Bitcoins. Sometimes I pay BitBay to bounties we have investors who got in early and they chip in. But there is no standard budget. We are volunteer and bounty driven. Sometimes I pay PR and soon we will start a Facebook ad campaign.

People can donate their POS rewards in the market client. That's already a feature. It's voluntary.

Oddly enough new buyers have put down large deposits on large purchase as we have had cash wires where a hefty deposit was done. I have also personally done an arbitrage contract with a big deposit. We have them and so far nobody has complained. Perhaps if this got really big an insurance company would come in for a fee to cover people who can't afford it.

To include a fee on top, why do that? The buyer should get that back. The thing about these contracts is they can be unilateral. So lets say a buyer has no deposit. The seller can guarantee his end of the bargain letting new buyers into the system. This is used for example on a persons "first" coins. But seller may want to do a little KYC first.

To be honest, this takes some getting used to. It's a major paradigm shift.