Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[SEOcrypto]

The important thing to think when marketing this is: THINK GLOBAL. Not just crypto market. You have to be thinking Disney / Google sized scope when coming at this. We want the world the adopt this, not just the crypto community.

We must think BIGGER! Include everyone on this planet.

i completely agree, and that's why the materials i'm preparing now are intended for any thinking reader, not only techies. ofc this makes the writing much harder. but not x100 harder, as the audience size grows

Allow me to disagree on some points here. Thinking global in Disney / Google sized scope is right but the approach and ways to reach the global in today's information and connections world are very different. The world is very colorful if you don't speak to techies, if you talk about black some people see grey in it and you are invisible for them. It's better to concentrate on a group of people outside the tech box (non tech crypto community), to frame your story in they worldview but to frame it in a way that it will be easy for them to spread it to the rest of the world. The story about Tau should be "spreadable".
here is the best book of Seth Godin that talks exactly about those concepts: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FrvXeliUyYQTlBZTRQR0ZZTnM/edit

While I agree that this 'spreadable' explanation will be critical to Tau's success, I think the first stage is the technical explanation of the vision. (and resulting adoption inside the crypto community)

We are all here because of the technological advancements Ohad is working on - the creation of a better ecosystem.  The technical underpinning of this needs to be shared and vetted by those within the developer crypto scene.  To me, this 'developer adoption' phase is the key first step here.

I think a good analogy here is the growth/adoption of Ethereum.  Ethereum is now THE ecosystem for dapps - primarily because of developer adoption.  Ethereum understood that their initial target was developers experimenting and building within their ecosystem.

This could all be released at one time - packaged nicely for non-techies and crypto devs - but I think the real meat behind the bones are the technological advancements Ohad is working on.  IMO, this is the critical piece that everything hinges on - not the ELI5 explanation of Tau.

TLDR - The grand picture must be packaged for the masses but, to me, it's actually the crypto community that needs to understand the technical benefits / advancements within this new ecosystem.

[1714092173]

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[1714092173]

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[ohad]

The important thing to think when marketing this is: THINK GLOBAL. Not just crypto market. You have to be thinking Disney / Google sized scope when coming at this. We want the world the adopt this, not just the crypto community.

We must think BIGGER! Include everyone on this planet.

i completely agree, and that's why the materials i'm preparing now are intended for any thinking reader, not only techies. ofc this makes the writing much harder. but not x100 harder, as the audience size grows

Allow me to disagree on some points here. Thinking global in Disney / Google sized scope is right but the approach and ways to reach the global in today's information and connections world are very different. The world is very colorful if you don't speak to techies, if you talk about black some people see grey in it and you are invisible for them. It's better to concentrate on a group of people outside the tech box (non tech crypto community), to frame your story in they worldview but to frame it in a way that it will be easy for them to spread it to the rest of the world. The story about Tau should be "spreadable".
here is the best book of Seth Godin that talks exactly about those concepts: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FrvXeliUyYQTlBZTRQR0ZZTnM/edit

good point, and indeed how i saw it most of the time, but the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.
(example of such sentence breaking from the original tau whitepaper: "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog", can be written as "F a fox. F is brown. F is quick. J a jump. F jumps J. J over D. D a dog. D is lazy. ....")

[ohad]

While I agree that this 'spreadable' explanation will be critical to Tau's success, I think the first stage is the technical explanation of the vision. (and resulting adoption inside the crypto community)

We are all here because of the technological advancements Ohad is working on - the creation of a better ecosystem.  The technical underpinning of this needs to be shared and vetted by those within the developer crypto scene.  To me, this 'developer adoption' phase is the key first step here.

I think a good analogy here is the growth/adoption of Ethereum.  Ethereum is now THE ecosystem for dapps - primarily because of developer adoption.  Ethereum understood that their initial target was developers experimenting and building within their ecosystem.

This could all be released at one time - packaged nicely for non-techies and crypto devs - but I think the real meat behind the bones are the technological advancements Ohad is working on.  IMO, this is the critical piece that everything hinges on - not the ELI5 explanation of Tau.

TLDR - The grand picture must be packaged for the masses but, to me, it's actually the crypto community that needs to understand the technical benefits / advancements within this new ecosystem.

i agree on the criticalness of the technical materials. fortunately the hard parts will be very small, and it won't be hard to explain most of how it works even to the masses. but there's a more important intent here. we're looking for many kinds of experts, from different areas. a p2p expert might be intimidated from logic, and a logician might be intimidated from p2p. i don't think the materials should be in "heavy" language, to the possible extent. this ofc not at the expense of not showing all pieces of information.

at this opportunity let me share with you a picture i made yesterday to help me organize part of the materials i'd like to discuss (well if i already have an opportunity let me refer the readers to the topic called "belief revision" which contains results that seem to show that it's impossible to have self-amendment in a non-classical [e.g. intuitionistic like MLTT] logic):


(MADC stands for "maximally adaptable decentralized coordination", just a temporary term)

[Rw13enlib88]

ohad please read this book

[provenceday]

any long term roadmap about Tau-chain?

thank you

[dmitryshech]

The important thing to think when marketing this is: THINK GLOBAL. Not just crypto market. You have to be thinking Disney / Google sized scope when coming at this. We want the world the adopt this, not just the crypto community.

We must think BIGGER! Include everyone on this planet.

i completely agree, and that's why the materials i'm preparing now are intended for any thinking reader, not only techies. ofc this makes the writing much harder. but not x100 harder, as the audience size grows

Allow me to disagree on some points here. Thinking global in Disney / Google sized scope is right but the approach and ways to reach the global in today's information and connections world are very different. The world is very colorful if you don't speak to techies, if you talk about black some people see grey in it and you are invisible for them. It's better to concentrate on a group of people outside the tech box (non tech crypto community), to frame your story in they worldview but to frame it in a way that it will be easy for them to spread it to the rest of the world. The story about Tau should be "spreadable".
here is the best book of Seth Godin that talks exactly about those concepts: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FrvXeliUyYQTlBZTRQR0ZZTnM/edit

While I agree that this 'spreadable' explanation will be critical to Tau's success, I think the first stage is the technical explanation of the vision. (and resulting adoption inside the crypto community)

We are all here because of the technological advancements Ohad is working on - the creation of a better ecosystem.  The technical underpinning of this needs to be shared and vetted by those within the developer crypto scene.  To me, this 'developer adoption' phase is the key first step here.

I think a good analogy here is the growth/adoption of Ethereum.  Ethereum is now THE ecosystem for dapps - primarily because of developer adoption.  Ethereum understood that their initial target was developers experimenting and building within their ecosystem.

This could all be released at one time - packaged nicely for non-techies and crypto devs - but I think the real meat behind the bones are the technological advancements Ohad is working on.  IMO, this is the critical piece that everything hinges on - not the ELI5 explanation of Tau.

TLDR - The grand picture must be packaged for the masses but, to me, it's actually the crypto community that needs to understand the technical benefits / advancements within this new ecosystem.

From my understanding Tau is much more than ecosystem for dapps. We deal here with right explanation of "decentralized artificial intelligence" to the masses. I can't even clearly explain it to myself for now,waiting for the white paper

I agree that the technical explanation of the vision is very important and indeed it will have it huge effect inside the community but it hardly can be spread outside of it so we definitely need two packages here.

[SEOcrypto]

ohad please read this book

Actually, Ohad needs to hire somebody that has read this book

Ohad should focus on what he is best at, then surround himself with smart marketers (when it's time)

[SEOcrypto]

The important thing to think when marketing this is: THINK GLOBAL. Not just crypto market. You have to be thinking Disney / Google sized scope when coming at this. We want the world the adopt this, not just the crypto community.

We must think BIGGER! Include everyone on this planet.

i completely agree, and that's why the materials i'm preparing now are intended for any thinking reader, not only techies. ofc this makes the writing much harder. but not x100 harder, as the audience size grows

Allow me to disagree on some points here. Thinking global in Disney / Google sized scope is right but the approach and ways to reach the global in today's information and connections world are very different. The world is very colorful if you don't speak to techies, if you talk about black some people see grey in it and you are invisible for them. It's better to concentrate on a group of people outside the tech box (non tech crypto community), to frame your story in they worldview but to frame it in a way that it will be easy for them to spread it to the rest of the world. The story about Tau should be "spreadable".
here is the best book of Seth Godin that talks exactly about those concepts: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FrvXeliUyYQTlBZTRQR0ZZTnM/edit

While I agree that this 'spreadable' explanation will be critical to Tau's success, I think the first stage is the technical explanation of the vision. (and resulting adoption inside the crypto community)

We are all here because of the technological advancements Ohad is working on - the creation of a better ecosystem.  The technical underpinning of this needs to be shared and vetted by those within the developer crypto scene.  To me, this 'developer adoption' phase is the key first step here.

I think a good analogy here is the growth/adoption of Ethereum.  Ethereum is now THE ecosystem for dapps - primarily because of developer adoption.  Ethereum understood that their initial target was developers experimenting and building within their ecosystem.

This could all be released at one time - packaged nicely for non-techies and crypto devs - but I think the real meat behind the bones are the technological advancements Ohad is working on.  IMO, this is the critical piece that everything hinges on - not the ELI5 explanation of Tau.

TLDR - The grand picture must be packaged for the masses but, to me, it's actually the crypto community that needs to understand the technical benefits / advancements within this new ecosystem.

From my understanding Tau is much more than ecosystem for dapps. We deal here with right explanation of "decentralized artificial intelligence" to the masses. I can't even clearly explain it to myself for now,waiting for the white paper

I agree that the technical explanation of the vision is very important and indeed it will have it huge effect inside the community but it hardly can be spread outside of it so we definitely need two packages here.

100% agree with you.  Tau is much more... my explanation was very oversimplified.  It will need to be packaged for the masses.

My main point was that explaining/sharing the technical breakthrough within the crypto community should be the current priority.

Ohad - thanks for the graph above.  Even with my limited understanding I was able to get a better idea of how everything works together.

[dmitryshech]

The important thing to think when marketing this is: THINK GLOBAL. Not just crypto market. You have to be thinking Disney / Google sized scope when coming at this. We want the world the adopt this, not just the crypto community.

We must think BIGGER! Include everyone on this planet.

i completely agree, and that's why the materials i'm preparing now are intended for any thinking reader, not only techies. ofc this makes the writing much harder. but not x100 harder, as the audience size grows

Allow me to disagree on some points here. Thinking global in Disney / Google sized scope is right but the approach and ways to reach the global in today's information and connections world are very different. The world is very colorful if you don't speak to techies, if you talk about black some people see grey in it and you are invisible for them. It's better to concentrate on a group of people outside the tech box (non tech crypto community), to frame your story in they worldview but to frame it in a way that it will be easy for them to spread it to the rest of the world. The story about Tau should be "spreadable".
here is the best book of Seth Godin that talks exactly about those concepts: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FrvXeliUyYQTlBZTRQR0ZZTnM/edit

good point, and indeed how i saw it most of the time, but the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.
(example of such sentence breaking from the original tau whitepaper: "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog", can be written as "F a fox. F is brown. F is quick. J a jump. F jumps J. J over D. D a dog. D is lazy. ....")

Just wanted to finish my thought/add my additional 5 cents about marketing globally. I know you're working on materials now so hopefully it will be somehow helpful

You can use me as avatar here... I'll explain:

the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.

How all these people going to know about this magic, easy as one-two-three system though?

Anyhow the mass adoption will start from the crypto community right? So the crypto community should be the first target group.

Now the crypto community, is not one whole peace, the community can be divided for many segments of different people with different level of understanding of the technology and the potential.

The best target group of people for marketing Tau could be the non-tech segment inside the crypto community  (investors,traders, entrepreneurs, enthusiasts even the darknetbuyers). And telling the story for them is different than telling the same story to techies or the whole world I already mentioned it in my earlier post

Instead of talking straight to the whole world it much more effective to talk first to non-techies inside the crypto community because they speak the same language with the outside world therefore story is more likely to spread out.

You can definitely include me in this group. If the materials you write will be understandable for me and the MOST important - I would be able to easily (ideally sitting in the pub drinking beer) tell about it to my friend that have no idea what blockchain and bitcoin is and get him exited about it, this is the WIN situation.

The whole point is: it's much easier for you to explain it to me and make me to do the job then explain it straight to my friend that haven't even heard abut bitcoin yet.

Just a little example of my avatar: if you talk about block size with him he gets stressed and bored fast but if you talk about the current block size conflict between BTC Core and BTC Unlimited you definitely catch his attention

If you talk about the current block size conflict between BTC Core and BTC Unlimited to my friend from the pub he thinks you are alien  

[ohad]

good points, indeed i explain every day to several people, one of them is Dana Edwards who is also posting on steemit about some of the concepts that arise, and the rest is on bitcointalk and basically nowhere else for now. however note that the first alpha has nothing in common with bitcoin, except the promise to be a platform for a better coin but is just one use case, so i cant see how the bitcoin crowd vs general crowd should affect the explanations about the first alpha

to comment on the first point:

the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.

How all these people going to know about this magic, easy as one-two-three system though?

basically, the vision for later versions is that you'll have to write just clear and correct english, and you'll get suggestions, autocompletions, autocorrections, and markups of how the computer understands it, during typing. for many years such "typing tools" (call it so) are an essential tools for programmers (they put it under the name "autocomplete" but it's more than that).
three words is too restrictive to be comfortable, but it's not hard to take it from there into something more so.
indeed can compare NTriples to Turtle or Notation3, where the latters contain many useful syntactic sugar. quite technical syntax though. on tau, we'll be able to define many syntax (grammar) we like, and then using logic to define what it means to be true.

[SEOcrypto]

good points, indeed i explain every day to several people, one of them is Dana Edwards who is also posting on steemit about some of the concepts that arise, and the rest is on bitcointalk and basically nowhere else for now. however note that the first alpha has nothing in common with bitcoin, except the promise to be a platform for a better coin but is just one use case, so i cant see how the bitcoin crowd vs general crowd should affect the explanations about the first alpha

to comment on the first point:

the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.

How all these people going to know about this magic, easy as one-two-three system though?

basically, the vision for later versions is that you'll have to write just clear and correct english, and you'll get suggestions, autocompletions, autocorrections, and markups of how the computer understands it, during typing. for many years such "typing tools" (call it so) are an essential tools for programmers (they put it under the name "autocomplete" but it's more than that).
three words is too restrictive to be comfortable, but it's not hard to take it from there into something more so.
indeed can compare NTriples to Turtle or Notation3, where the latters contain many useful syntactic sugar. quite technical syntax though. on tau, we'll be able to define any syntax (grammar) we like, and then using logic to define what it means to be true.

If you are interested in this project, read Dana Edwards posts on steemit.

It's incredibly encouraging to know that this person exists and is another stakeholder in the project.

[dmitryshech]

good points, indeed i explain every day to several people, one of them is Dana Edwards who is also posting on steemit about some of the concepts that arise, and the rest is on bitcointalk and basically nowhere else for now. however note that the first alpha has nothing in common with bitcoin, except the promise to be a platform for a better coin but is just one use case, so i cant see how the bitcoin crowd vs general crowd should affect the explanations about the first alpha

to comment on the first point:

the more people putting knowledge into the network, the better for everyone. and it shouldn't be harder than posting in facebook using three-word sentences (subject-predicate-object), it'll be even significantly easier than three words only.

How all these people going to know about this magic, easy as one-two-three system though?

basically, the vision for later versions is that you'll have to write just clear and correct english, and you'll get suggestions, autocompletions, autocorrections, and markups of how the computer understands it, during typing. for many years such "typing tools" (call it so) are an essential tools for programmers (they put it under the name "autocomplete" but it's more than that).
three words is too restrictive to be comfortable, but it's not hard to take it from there into something more so.
indeed can compare NTriples to Turtle or Notation3, where the latters contain many useful syntactic sugar. quite technical syntax though. on tau, we'll be able to define many syntax (grammar) we like, and then using logic to define what it means to be true.

Yes, probably all my points are more relevant for future Agaras platform, sorry about going back and forth with this. I am just trying to draw a complete picture in my mind.

Thanks to you and Dana Edwards latest post https://steemit.com/tauchain/@dana-edwards/tauchain-the-automated-programmer  it's much clearer now.

[forzendiablo]

why only bittrex and why so bad website ? its an old project that looks like ethereum to me, why so little advance in looks

[mr_Zombie]

voting is such a black-or-white thing. if you propose something, am i allowed to say only "yes" or "no"? how about a system supporting a more constructive yet formal discussion? and what if your proposal is incomplete, yet not worthless, and you want to propose others to offer you a completion?
and what if your proposal is contradictory, yet not worthless? there might be, for example, several ways to resolve the contradiction, and you'd like your friends (or team members) to suggest you which to choose.

So basically this would be a formalized negotiation process for several participants in a blockchain?

exactly, except "blockchain", which is optional. most of apps in the world in general (and over tau) wouldn't need a blockchain.

as one simple example: if we want to do the distributed ledger magic, but we have a little stronger assumption that we have the complete list of all participants, then the synchronization problem can be solved efficiently and doesn't need a blockchain with mining. see the book "reasoning about knowledge" by fagin&halpern chapter 6.
and this (having the full list of participants) will happen a lot in groups over tau. however not always ofc

This goes a little bit over my head. How can normal people use this system to do something?

Anyways, finally I took some time to try to understand better this project and skimmed through this whole topic. So here are some random thoughts and questions.

1. Would you call Tauchain a DAO? It's decentralized (maybe not in the beginning, but it aims to be in the future), it's autonomous, but is it something that you can call "organization"?

If the answer is yes, you might be able use it to explain better what Tauchain is and what it does. It also helps to think more clearly how the governance system should be designed.

A DAO needs help from humans to make decision (not enough AI yet). How it will listen and use the human input? Somebody has to have power over the rules. In the beginning it's good to centralize decision making power to developers, because they know the best how the system works. But in the long run it's probably best to decentralize the decision making power to make sure that the DAO will stay resilient.

It's important to make difference between decentralization of existence and ruling power. Decentralization of existence is really important to make sure that the DAO will keep running even when many of the computers it exists on will be shut down for some reason. Decentralization of ruling power over the rules and decisions of the blockchain is different thing. In the beginning it's probably even a bad idea because it's dangerous to have too many ignorant rulers.

We can also have different roles in decentralization of existence. In traditional blockchains there are block producers and nodes. Apparently Tauchain will also have a blockchain, so there needs to be rules who will produce the next block and how they will get rewarded. If there is lot of data that everybody needs, there might be a need to incentivize some nodes, too.

2. How Tauchain will work from the user perspective? If I fire up a Tau client, what do I have? What can I do with it? For example, what if I want to create a new DAO for some purpose. How it will be done in practice? It will probably need a blockchain or some other secure way of saving data and making transactions? Do I have to code everything or can I just use some existing codebase and blockchain?

3. Is it possible to use Tau language in offline computer, just like any other programming language? Would it make sense to publish the language first, let people play with it and make sure it works, and then launch Tauchain?

[dmitryshech]

This goes a little bit over my head. How can normal people use this system to do something?

Anyways, finally I took some time to try to understand better this project and skimmed through this whole topic. So here are some random thoughts and questions.

1. Would you call Tauchain a DAO? It's decentralized (maybe not in the beginning, but it aims to be in the future), it's autonomous, but is it something that you can call "organization"?

If the answer is yes, you might be able use it to explain better what Tauchain is and what it does. It also helps to think more clearly how the governance system should be designed.

A DAO needs help from humans to make decision (not enough AI yet). How it will listen and use the human input? Somebody has to have power over the rules. In the beginning it's good to centralize decision making power to developers, because they know the best how the system works. But in the long run it's probably best to decentralize the decision making power to make sure that the DAO will stay resilient.

It's important to make difference between decentralization of existence and ruling power. Decentralization of existence is really important to make sure that the DAO will keep running even when many of the computers it exists on will be shut down for some reason. Decentralization of ruling power over the rules and decisions of the blockchain is different thing. In the beginning it's probably even a bad idea because it's dangerous to have too many ignorant rulers.

We can also have different roles in decentralization of existence. In traditional blockchains there are block producers and nodes. Apparently Tauchain will also have a blockchain, so there needs to be rules who will produce the next block and how they will get rewarded. If there is lot of data that everybody needs, there might be a need to incentivize some nodes, too.

2. How Tauchain will work from the user perspective? If I fire up a Tau client, what do I have? What can I do with it? For example, what if I want to create a new DAO for some purpose. How it will be done in practice? It will probably need a blockchain or some other secure way of saving data and making transactions? Do I have to code everything or can I just use some existing codebase and blockchain?

3. Is it possible to use Tau language in offline computer, just like any other programming language? Would it make sense to publish the language first, let people play with it and make sure it works, and then launch Tauchain?

An answer to most of those questions you can also find on Dana Edwards's blog: https://steemit.com/@dana-edwards  in her articles about Tau and AI

[ohad]

voting is such a black-or-white thing. if you propose something, am i allowed to say only "yes" or "no"? how about a system supporting a more constructive yet formal discussion? and what if your proposal is incomplete, yet not worthless, and you want to propose others to offer you a completion?
and what if your proposal is contradictory, yet not worthless? there might be, for example, several ways to resolve the contradiction, and you'd like your friends (or team members) to suggest you which to choose.

So basically this would be a formalized negotiation process for several participants in a blockchain?

exactly, except "blockchain", which is optional. most of apps in the world in general (and over tau) wouldn't need a blockchain.

as one simple example: if we want to do the distributed ledger magic, but we have a little stronger assumption that we have the complete list of all participants, then the synchronization problem can be solved efficiently and doesn't need a blockchain with mining. see the book "reasoning about knowledge" by fagin&halpern chapter 6.
and this (having the full list of participants) will happen a lot in groups over tau. however not always ofc

This goes a little bit over my head. How can normal people use this system to do something?

Anyways, finally I took some time to try to understand better this project and skimmed through this whole topic. So here are some random thoughts and questions.

1. Would you call Tauchain a DAO? It's decentralized (maybe not in the beginning, but it aims to be in the future), it's autonomous, but is it something that you can call "organization"?

If the answer is yes, you might be able use it to explain better what Tauchain is and what it does. It also helps to think more clearly how the governance system should be designed.

A DAO needs help from humans to make decision (not enough AI yet). How it will listen and use the human input? Somebody has to have power over the rules. In the beginning it's good to centralize decision making power to developers, because they know the best how the system works. But in the long run it's probably best to decentralize the decision making power to make sure that the DAO will stay resilient.

It's important to make difference between decentralization of existence and ruling power. Decentralization of existence is really important to make sure that the DAO will keep running even when many of the computers it exists on will be shut down for some reason. Decentralization of ruling power over the rules and decisions of the blockchain is different thing. In the beginning it's probably even a bad idea because it's dangerous to have too many ignorant rulers.

We can also have different roles in decentralization of existence. In traditional blockchains there are block producers and nodes. Apparently Tauchain will also have a blockchain, so there needs to be rules who will produce the next block and how they will get rewarded. If there is lot of data that everybody needs, there might be a need to incentivize some nodes, too.

2. How Tauchain will work from the user perspective? If I fire up a Tau client, what do I have? What can I do with it? For example, what if I want to create a new DAO for some purpose. How it will be done in practice? It will probably need a blockchain or some other secure way of saving data and making transactions? Do I have to code everything or can I just use some existing codebase and blockchain?

3. Is it possible to use Tau language in offline computer, just like any other programming language? Would it make sense to publish the language first, let people play with it and make sure it works, and then launch Tauchain?

one of tau's use cases is a to be a platform for creating DAOs. it is intended to collaboratively develop ideas and applications, decentralized (with special decentralized coordination abilities inherited from tau) or centralized, online or offline. tau itself will be subject to change according to the rules of changing the rules, which the first users will form together. see the old blogpost http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy that refers to the roles of the users in designing the platform itself. however the methods to achieve that were changed since the post was written. the extent of human intervention is ofc also up to the rules. nothing in the system is fixed. it is fully amendable in principle, unless the users decide to lock this option.

how to create a dao from the user's perspective, well, let's imagine it as a facebook group. you create a group, invite people, and define the questions and topics of the group (which would ofc be in a formal language). then people post on the group, and others may agree or disagree, and may comment to express more of their thought, all in a "simple enough english that machines can understand" ofc. the platform will then avoid repetition of same ideas (even if stated differently or as part of a larger argument), detect implicit agreements and disagreements, and calculate the part that everyone agree on which is the consensus. everything said on that group will formally specify all the aspects of your desired DAO. the platform will know to aggregate this knowledge, convert it into a program, or into a wiki, or you can reason over this knowledge, prove assertions, ask questions...

[mr_Zombie]

tau itself will be subject to change according to the rules of changing the rules, which the first users will form together. see the old blogpost http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy that refers to the roles of the users in designing the platform itself. however the methods to achieve that were changed since the post was written. the extent of human intervention is ofc also up to the rules. nothing in the system is fixed. it is fully amendable in principle, unless the users decide to lock this option.

What is the difference between rootchain and sidechains? I'm trying to understand how important it is to have really strong and efficient governance for the rootchain. If the rootchain doesn't include anything else besides the tau language and some p2p-functions to make it decentralized, the governance isn't probably a big thing because there will be very few decisions to make. Some upgrades sometimes, but if the system is very well designed, this won't happen often. If pretty much all action happens in the sidechains, then most users don't need to care about rootchain. Only thing that they care is that there won't be any changes that break their sidechain operations.

You might be overestimating the willingness of humans to collaborate peacefully over the rules of Tauchain. As we have seen many times in the cryptosphere, people fight over stupid things. Most people are not willing to use logic and rationality to form consensus. That's why I think it's important that there is a clear goal for Tauchain. When it's ready, how it will look like? When you know the goal, you can design the governance machanism to support that goal. The purpose of governance is to make sure that Tauchain achieves the goal (even when many of the participants are ignorant and irrational).

how to create a dao from the user's perspective

I was mostly thinking what makes Tauchain different from all other smartcontract platforms. At least it should be the most secure – when the smart contract is written in tau language, users can be sure that it works exactly like it's meant to work. Right?

But what are the usecases for Tauchain? What is it really good for, so that people will choose it over other alternatives? Is it easier, cheaper, or faster? Does it offer better functionality? Is it easier to make more complicated smartcontracts? What is the "unfair advantage" of Tauchain?

I have a few potential ideas for DAO/DAC. Tauchain is one of the most interesting platforms currently, mostly because of Agoras. If I can easily reuse existing code and hire programmers to write new code in a marketplace, it might offer a great way to develop something that actually works. I could just define what the DAO should do and use Agoras to hire somebody to combine existing code or write new functions so that I have the business logic. Then I can just focus on branding and marketing.

Another potentially interesting thing is to use AI with DAOs. It won't happen soon, but it's interesting to think how to replace piece by piece some things where humans are needed for DAO. It seems that Tau might be the best platform to enable this. In the beginning it will be only small things, but over time it could evolve to something really interesting.

BTW, this is a great short video about DAO/DAC perspective for blockchains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG-CcbtwKKU

I've found the DAO perspective to be extremely helpful to think about governance and long term future of blockchain projects. Too many projects start with ambitious hopes but not enough disciplined thinking about what it actually takes to have a virtual organization that can survive (and preferably thrive) over long periods of time.

let's imagine it as a facebook group. you create a group, invite people, and define the questions and topics of the group (which would ofc be in a formal language). then people post on the group, and others may agree or disagree, and may comment to express more of their thought, all in a "simple enough english that machines can understand" ofc. the platform will then avoid repetition of same ideas (even if stated differently or as part of a larger argument), detect implicit agreements and disagreements, and calculate the part that everyone agree on which is the consensus. everything said on that group will formally specify all the aspects of your desired DAO. the platform will know to aggregate this knowledge, convert it into a program, or into a wiki, or you can reason over this knowledge, prove assertions, ask questions...

Are there any real world usecases for this? Usually people are very irrational and don't want to do this kind of stuff. They rather keep their contradictory beliefs. It's very small group of people who want to have anything to do with logical knowledge accumulation. Even many scientists are really bad at rationality.

[dmitryshech]

There are always some kind of risks whenever and wherever we invest but I have feeling that at current price it is not bad to make some investment for long term. This project has potential and strength to make some difference among all running ones.

allow me to agree. the cap is relatively ridiculus..

Ohad, one of your "relatively ridiculous" neighbors in Israel: https://matchpool.co/crowdfund-live/ showed very impressive results in rising money yesterday. Wonderful team, good marketing, great website UI/UX design, impressive team of advisers
 
I understand that Matchpool is just another great idea built on existing eth platform and tau and agoras are much more complicated and your plans is to go that in public later on, after Tau is ready and you will have a lot in hand, BUT... You said that you want to bring as much as more people to Tau even on early stages, so they can start loading it with knowledge base. Now, keeping matchpool in mind as an example of good marketing, how you're planing to do that?
With no visible marketing strategy, with ICO that not really ICO, with no clear road map starting from Tau ending with Agoras (some people don't even know the difference between the two), with idni.org website that looks like it built in 90's with content that even not every tech will understand?

What about visualizing the idea professionally, at least a little at this point?  Some real use cases like how doctor from Japan can use Tauchain can segnificantly help. Instead, with such a grat project like Tau you guy's (project that already raised some money) looking for volunteers to make a cheep info graphic. Tau deffinetly deserves professional web design studio, branding/marketing agency imo, it will take it to the next level.

I follow Dana Edwards, I like her posts, she doe's a good job in explaining but it certainly not enough. Again, I know that to compare Tau to Matchpool technologically it's apples to oranges comparison but imo if Tau and Agoras are much more complicated to explain, than, moreover, the marketing and visual design should be much more sophisticated than Matchpool.

I am invested (relatively heavy compare to rest of my portfolio) in Tau, I believe in this project and support it so I really hope you understand my good intentions to be constructive.

[ohad]

mr_Zombie:
indeed the root only defines tau itself. but the governance problem is right there. a small example would be the block size saga. obv when it began i was the first to say "told you"
since we want tau to be able to change itself upon agreement, we have to give tools for the change not to destroy the network (aside supporting forkless changes). so one of the changes that we might change tau into, is restricting the way it can be modified in the future (e.g. "can never take someone's money no matter the change"). maybe klosure's analogy is good here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg15324672#msg15324672
the social problems with cooperation are (partially) known. indeed tau is not only about a platform for collaboration, but it is strongly required to work and be useful. there's much to say here, and is not easy to explain yet, and that's also what the paper will be about (same for the question about how it'll look like when it's ready). the goal is to indeed let 1, or 10, or 100, or 1,000,000 people to collaboratively form one or more bodies of knowledge (or a program), without mess, and in a way that the desired theory or program will indeed be formed more efficiently than using existing ways.
as for smart contracts, yes indeed security is gained also by the means of reasoning, and requiring the language to be decidable. however note that just like dao, a program that determines the parameters of coins transfer (aka smart contract) is again only a pale shadow of what can be done with tau. for more use cases, see the last 1-2 pages of https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit for example (and is old, the new tau will offer even more)

dmitryshech:
for a short answer, i first need a very good paper, as a first mean of getting more people. then i need to write the first alpha. then i'll have time (and much more value in hand) to approach the public in large scale. i have pending invitations from high executives in many companies like microsoft and google, which i put in hold until i can come with more in hand. when i'll do have that, i'll be able to achieve the marketing goals etc in larger success and smaller effort. right now the mental effort that i need to invest in my current tasks does not allow me to seriously do anything else. it's not hard to focus on telling people what they want to hear and grab millions for void, in this young and wild cryptocurrency world.  people all around do that all the time. but i'm from the other kind of people.
as for the website, we have a very fancy website that is just waiting for the texts to be rewritten. we have a great graphics guy. the bottleneck is me (i told Dana about him in detail only after he wrote the post that we need graphics designer)

[dmitryshech]

for a short answer, i first need a very good paper, as a first mean of getting more people. then i need to write the first alpha. then i'll have time (and much more value in hand) to approach the public in large scale. i have pending invitations from high executives in many companies like microsoft and google, which i put in hold until i can come with more in hand. when i'll do have that, i'll be able to achieve the marketing goals etc in larger success and smaller effort. right now the mental effort that i need to invest in my current tasks does not allow me to seriously do anything else. it's not hard to focus on telling people what they want to hear and grab millions for void, in this young and wild cryptocurrency world.  people all around do that all the time. but i'm from the other kind of people.
as for the website, we have a very fancy website that is just waiting for the texts to be rewritten. we have a great graphics guy. the bottleneck is me (i told Dana about him in detail only after he wrote the post that we need graphics designer)

Thank you very much for your answer and for your hard work.