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2041  Other / Meta / Re: xtraelv and Lafu: Merit abusing or not? (Forum issue - Discussion needed) on: May 21, 2018, 02:27:58 AM
I'm pretty sure what happened is cryptopia staff came here not knowing btct very well, and they attempted to promote cryptopia like many other companies do..

They didn't know the etiquette of btct so they unknowingly broke some rules for multiple threads and such..
Common btct noob mistakes but the admins of topia are hotheads with huge egos so instead of learning a battle ensued resulting in topia admins pretty much writing off btct and blocking btct links from their chats and stuff..  

You might have noticed that I don't have any Cryptopia signature or adverts on my profile. I have strong links with a number of exchanges.
I'm not reponsible for their issues, have no control over their issues but have tried to help users get resolutions. How bad is that ?

As a crypto investor you get associations with many coins, exchanges and people.

Cryptopia has changed from being run by 2-3 people last year to now being run by a new CEO and about 116 staff. Only one founder still works there part time.

The main reason I come on bitcointalk is to expose scams and to assist users that post in the Cryptopia thread because bitcointalk is largely ignored by their staff.


I don't even particularly like bitcointalk because the new users get treated quite poorly.


Cryptopia has been hammered a lot on btct to the point to where you would almost feel bad for them but they bring it on themselves..

This thread is pretty much a continuation of cryptopia not knowing WTF they are doing and getting themselves into trouble.. Probably..

I mean, Ill give xtraelv the benefiet of the doubt that he didn't know that he would cause trouble for himself with his meriting activity, and I'm sure all of this crap that just got stirred up over his use of merit is a pretty good big warning to him and hopefully he will brush up on btct culture/etiquette and act accordingly..

Cryptopia has really been beaten up a lot here on btct for not knowing what they are doing so I say you don't wreck this guys account yet, make sure he is well aware (I think he is) of the problem, and lets hope he can end the cycle of cryptopia/btct - Hatfield/McCoy rivalry..

Cryptopia was beaten up because their systems couldn't cope with the volume and support requests were astronomical. It is only logical and understandable that users became upset.

As a mod I tried to do what I could during that time. The rest of the time I largely ignore that thread. Usually Lafu is on there on his own trying to do his best with limited English.  Every exchange gets hammered on here. Exchange users don't read, don't research and have opinions about things they know little about. They hit the nuclear button when their funds are stuck and disappear once it is resolved. They gravitate to here to voice their opinions on here because abusive behaviour is largely unmoderated.  I prefer spending months unravelling complex scams where people have actually lost funds and preventing others from losing their funds.

I'm also not convinced that this is without malice. I can't imagine someone analysing someones "merits" for no reason when they don't have time to message those users. I suspect ulterior motive.
2042  Other / Meta / Re: xtraelv and Lafu: Merit abusing or not? (Forum issue - Discussion needed) on: May 21, 2018, 01:53:23 AM
so much that we're getting really close to "shoot first, ask questions later" situation.

Right now, I do think that they've intentionally traded smaller amount of merit between one another but I don't think it was with serious intents of trading merit against the rules. Something like "murder from neglect" (I believe I've picked the right term).


Murder by neglect ? We are talking about something slightly less trivial as "liking" someone on facebook. If the merit system wasn't supposed to be used then it shouldn't have been introduced. If it was anymore complex than giving credit to someone that you believed deserves it - it should have been outlined better in the instructions.

I find this whole trial by lynchmob quite abhorrent.
2043  Other / Meta / Re: Serial feedback blackmailer - mdayonliner on: May 20, 2018, 10:08:25 PM

I never said that I published them on here. To track scammers can take months of patience and work.  Grin
A lot of it goes straight to the relevant authorities - with solid admissable evidence (not just accusations) and to others with far more flair for publishing.
Like this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2198496.msg22099683#msg22099683
I prefer to quietly work in the background and provide the info to the right people.  Grin

https://i.imgur.com/d1ZWQLj.png







I can't believe how many threads mdayonliner has opened about fairly much the same thing. I've made 3 topics in my entire time on bitcointalk. The guy is not a DT so many people just laugh it off because his feedback is harmless. It doesn't mean that the conduct is acceptable. It just means that it is of little consequence.

Anyway, it's untrusted feedback and I know you're not worried about it.  If this was a DT member, all hell would've broken loose already I'm sure. This isn't going to affect the other members involved much either, unless they have very thin skin.  

I think mdayonliner's conclusions are wrong and I stated as much in the other thread. I think the "terms" of feedback removal are too convoluted and sometimes mdayonliner can seem like a bit of a drama queen but I don't see malicious intent here.

I doubt that the users on the pages and pages of untrusted feedback are even aware of the public accusations made against them since he hasn’t even bothered to contact them. I personally wouldn’t have known if someone hadn’t pointed it out to me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1432468

1 Lucky you. If I were a DT or staff or even high ranked member then I would never give you this second chance. I need to save my own ass.

It is quite clear from his attitude towards me and others that he thinks he has done nothing wrong and the statement above indicates that he would act even more vindictive if he had more power.


It would have been nice to know when someone tries to dob me in - for something that has a simple explaination. A message would have been a minimum courtesy.

I wish I could but there are so many cases I am investigating that I have actually no time to PM individuals asking for explanations. That's why I always leave the RedTrust removal link on the tag I give.
 

If you are going to accuse someone of something in public then there is a duty to make them aware of it. If you are going to second guess their motives then they should have the opportunity to state their case.

I don't accept his "I wish I could but there are so many cases I am investigating that I have actually no time to PM individuals asking for explanations.". For someone who boasts about making 50+ posts a week in his signature. It would take less time to send a simple format template message than to leave feedback.

If it was about "educating" others then he would have contacted them. I see the tagging quietly as vindictive and self preservation - because if nobody gets the opportunity defend themselves (because they are unaware) he can "conclude" all his "cases" without any of their input - nor get feedback.

I rarely look at untrusted feedback and many users would be quietly unaware that it even exists.

I see something seriously wrong and warped with his conduct.
2044  Other / Meta / Re: xtraelv and Lafu: Merit abusing or not? (Forum issue - Discussion needed) on: May 20, 2018, 03:00:36 PM
I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure.
I'm not sure either, but I'd put it at 90% sure that xtraelv and Lafu have some sort of arrangement for those merits that were exchanged. .


Well - you're wrong. I've never spoken to Lafu about merits until yesterday when I became aware of these claims. Like I said before: I couldn't care less about receiving merits.

2045  Other / Meta / Re: Serial feedback blackmailer - mdayonliner on: May 20, 2018, 02:32:04 PM

OP, your name sounds familiar.  Did I remove a neg from you in the past?

Nope - you have never given me a neg.

I often post in scam posts and have done some projects with Cryptodevil.

You posted in a recent scam thead started by me here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3256150.msg34259772#msg34259772
2046  Other / Meta / Re: Serial feedback blackmailer - mdayonliner on: May 20, 2018, 02:11:57 PM
OP, you're complaining about untrusted feedback... there is nothing to blackmail you with.

I know it is huff and puff. But many of the people he has dealt with in his thread don't.

Do you think his demands and conduct are acceptable ?
2047  Other / Meta / Re:mdayonliner on: May 20, 2018, 01:17:45 PM
Proof of feedback extortion / blackmail
Stop using these two words every time someone gives you a timeline to correct something. Neither word is applicable here. Overly-sensitive humans. Roll Eyes

-snip-
Description changed to ultimatum rather than "blackmail" or "extortion". Title has been changed to sound less dramatic.

Timeline is irrelevant. "I will give you 24 hours of time to admit your mistake on my trust removal topic ." Is not  a satisfactory solution.

The third post, aka poisoning the well, is unnecessary and actually makes your case weaker.

Point taken  - I removed the third post.
2048  Other / Meta / Re: xtraelv and Lafu: Merit abusing or not? (Forum issue - Discussion needed) on: May 20, 2018, 01:06:17 PM
The merit message said they could expire so I gave them to the person I found most deserving.
-snip-
Nobody in their right mind who looks into the relevant posts is going to believe this.

They weren't for just particular posts. The merits are not something that I find particularly relevant. I had them - it warned not to keep them. So I gave them to the person I found deserving of them. For the general contribution to helping out people on here.

One post was for announcement that addressed the most critical issue affecting users at the time.
One post was for an announcement that users had been looking forward the most. (endless "when is the doge market re-opening" questions)
One post is just a general post I merited because I had points and didn't want them to expire .



I've looked at "sMerit" three times since March. I gave them out when I saw that I had them.

Look at Lafu's total merit points  - why would he care one bit whether he got 19 points from me or not ?



This nonsense is a storm in a teacup. I didn't even know Cryptodevil had given me merit until yesterday. I couldn't care less about receiving merits.
2049  Other / Meta / Re: xtraelv and Lafu: Merit abusing or not? (Forum issue - Discussion needed) on: May 20, 2018, 12:38:46 PM
I'll be honest when I say that I'm not sure. This can very well be a situation of someone finding useful information. I don't see any pattern in merit trading (if there is any) and it's not that xtraelv's posts are complete nonsense. Also, since they're both in customer support, I do not think that post like these should deserve merit in any way, since they're just doing their job and should be receiving "merit" from their employers.

Now the same thing goes for [ANN] threads.

So my opinion is:  They probably aren't doing merit trading on purpose or that those two alts are connected. But I do think that they're using merit as it is not intended to be used. Tho, I just as well may be wrong,





I didn't even know what "smerit " was or that I had it until March. Lafu helps out a lot of people on the forum for no reward in his own time. It said that smerits could expire in the future so I gave it to him. I didn't even know that he had given me merit until recently when I found out that merit existed. I don't even see what the big deal is. I couldn't care less about merit I receive.

The merit message said they could expire so I gave them to the person I found most deserving.

I didn't look into it - and having looked at the rules now - wouldn't change my decision.

The merits were given in full accordance to the rules: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0



Neither Lafu nor myself are "customer support" .We are both UNPAID volunteer moderators on Cryptopia - I have never met Lafu but I chat with him occasionally. We live 18000km apart on different sides of the planet.

Lafu helps users with problems on bitcointalk while I generally am involved in busting scams on here. As moderators we have some special priviliges, abilities and contacts to help people that have issues with the exchange. Neither of us have to be on here because generally Cryptopia ignores this "bitcointalk" forum because it is largely unmoderated and often has abusive people on it. So their staff doesn't generally post on here.

2050  Other / Meta / Re: Discussion needed: xtraelv and Lafu activities on: May 20, 2018, 12:18:21 PM
Do not be fooled by this blackmailing spam clown.

Full explaination and blackmail scam accusation against mdayonliner has been made here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.0
2051  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Yobit don't want anyone out of their site? (Wallet status: Maintenance) on: May 20, 2018, 12:06:50 PM
Yobit has many coins that do work but there are also a lot that either don't work or are on the "special Yobit fork".  Shocked

Many shitcoins that have no network or a dying network are still traded on there. Buyer beware - always - with any exchange.
2052  Economy / Scam Accusations / icenter is a scam ( icenter.co ) on: May 20, 2018, 11:19:01 AM
icenter is an actively marketed "bot" scam - this is to warn users. https://icenter.co/



SOURCE: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10614100

The company it was previously registered in the UK with FALSE details.

Notice to the muppets harassing the people at the FALSE address given at the companies office. "John ERIC" does not exist and a random fake address was used in the registration process. The use of FALSE details led to the company being struck-off



Notice to the muppets harassing the people at the FALSE address given at the companies office. "John ERIC" does not exist and a random fake address was used in the registration process. The use of FALSE details led to the company being struck-off



Since I notified the UK companies office it has now been gazetted for a compulsory strike off. (Notice the address is now the default companies office address)



Notice to the muppets harassing the people at the FALSE address given at the companies office. "John ERIC" does not exist and a random fake address was used in the registration process. The use of FALSE details led to the company being struck-off

Buzzfeed ran a great story about it.

John Eric who supposebly runs it is BOGUS. Quote" BuzzFeed News was unable to find any information about iCenter’s owners or its parent company. A UK Companies House registration document from October that was posted by iCenter and featured Eric’s name, listed an address at 120 Fleet Street in London, but the only tenant of that address is Goldman Sachs’ London office. "We can confirm that none of these entities or people are connected to Goldman Sachs," a spokesperson for the company said in a statement."

Quote" Buzzfeed also looked up icenter.co’s associated IP address and uncovered a host of other associated websites — many of them tied to other investment bots. One associated site with the same IP address was customhyipbot.com (HYIP is an acronym for high-yield investment program), which promises in broken English to build custom Telegram bots for any kind of project."

Responding to a BuzzFeed News inquiry, “Md Khaled” offered to build a bot similar to iCenter's. The script itself would cost just $500 plus $100 a month hosting.

“If you need to make scam it’s only for you, you can stop bot at any time.” he stated.

SOURCE: https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanmac/cryptocurrency-scammers-are-running-wild-on-telegram?utm_term=.akzq6w2O5J#.wp1qOn0xMR




They have since moved their registration to Belize.



If you look at the URL in the screenshot you will see this came from the icenter website. Currently it is still there: https://icenter.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/JOP-Joe-Online-Projects-Ltd.pdf


2053  Other / Meta / Re: [New format] Merit Abuser Gang [Now 18 Cases and 14th yet to be completed] on: May 20, 2018, 08:39:57 AM
There is nothing in the rules that says that your smerit decisions will be scrutinised by a blackmailing  ultimatum giving - spam clown with some warped interpretation of the rules.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.0  Scam Accusations >  - mdayonliner
2054  Other / Meta / Re: [Parody] Merit translation on: May 20, 2018, 07:20:17 AM
While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

Do not beg for merit excessively.

This was a very simple message when theymos explained about giving merits.

And these are the translations (I might bring you more in future) we are seeing through out the forum.

Quote
Why the negative feedback? Flodner is a friend of mine, am I not allowed to send him some merit? :/
Quote
He is a trusted friend he asked for some merit and I did.
Translation: Award merits to friends

Quote
...mostly i gave my merits to who gave me ?
Translation: Award merits who send your merits

Quote
Because meriting is not prohibited and everybody are free to distrubute theri1 merits to everyone without any reason etc.
Translation: Awarding merit need no reasons so keep awarding.

PS: It's a parody post. Merit abusers, please do not use it as a reference ground for your merit abusing activities.

Update:
New translation 1: Award merit to the bounty managers to show your appreciation/like of the project.

1distributed their

Who is this muppet ? This post makes no sense.

FAQ: Everything you need to know about forum 'activity, account ranks and merit https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0

KEYWORD: Everything







There is nothing that says that your decisions will be scrutinised by some blackmailing spam clown with some warped interpretation of the rules.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.0  Scam Accusations > Serial feedback blackmailer - mdayonliner
2055  Other / Meta / mdayonliner on: May 20, 2018, 03:38:12 AM
EDITED FOR UPDATES: origional can be viewed here: https://web.archive.org/web/20180522114952/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4019640.msg38050208%23msg38050208

This topic has been moved to [META].
Started as scam thread but it is an issue of conduct rather than scam.
The ponzi promotion accusation has been moved here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4221113.0

TITLE was updated to sound less dramatic and reflect the changed and new content.
The word blackmail has been substituted with ultimatum for reduced dramatic effect.

Please note: These are accusations - not conclusions.

What happened: Looking at my feedback I found that I had been tagged for "Merit abuse" by a nobody that runs various threads promoting himself and (in my opinion) trolling others. Didn't concern me much except when I discovered that his ultimatum is concerning some users.

He gives them an ultimatum that if they give him neutral feedback and if they admit they "merit abused" he will remove his negative feedback.

While I don't care about receiving "merit" from the system or the "untrusted feedback" he has given me -  it concerns me that someone without any bitcointalk official position is issuing ultimatums to users.



Members profile: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1432468

Reference Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3186068.0  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.0
https://web.archive.org/web/20180520032404/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3186068.0
https://web.archive.org/save/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.0
https://web.archive.org/save/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.20
https://web.archive.org/save/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.40
https://web.archive.org/web/2/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.60

Issue: Feedback  ultimatum

In my case - in my opinion - the merits were given in accordance to the rules: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0



The issues can be seen here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4031390.0

There are many others that aren't even aware that a merit system exists or choose to not use it.  I don't (and many others) care about the rank system.

There are long periods of time where I don't visit bitcointalk.

A legendary account can easily be bought  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3016335.0 (amongst all the other account sales on bitcointalk - but that is another can of worms)



Proof people have been negatively affected by the "shoot first - ask questions later (or not at all) "ultimatums" :






So, to avoid red trust on my account from the merit abusers those I have tagged and will be tagging in future also from some moral perspective (e.i 1, e.i 2) I have end up with this decision that I will remove your Red Trust as merit abuser if you accept following six (6) conditions1 in two part.

Part one: Post on the comment section of this threa
1. YOUR USERNAME <= Do not remove the glow and large font code
2. Admit that you have abused the merit system: Yes/No
3. You apology in public on this tread: Your apology content has to be at-least 120 character long.
4. Commit that you will never do this again: Yes/No

Once you done posting the comment then do the following...

Part two:
5. You will send a neutral trust for me referencing the link of your apology post.
6. On the neutral trust you will write: "I am leaving this neutral to keep a record of my merit abusing so that in future if I do the same abusive behaviour and receive red trust from mdayonliner then I will not complain again."

Now edit the same apology post and mention "Done with 5 and 6"

A sample of an apology post
Code:
1. [glow=red,2,300][b][size=15pt]YOUR USERNAME[/size][/b][/glow]
2. Admit that you have abused the merit system: Yes
3. You apology in public on this tread: [b]"The minimum 120 character apology content" [/b]
4. Commit that you will never do this again: Yes

Edit:
Done with 5 and 6

Once I verify you done everything correctly then I will give you a neutral trust for having a log for me on the my trust page for you so that I can review your profile in future whenever I want and finally I will remove your red trust to give you a second chance.  

1 Lucky you. If I were a DT or staff or even high ranked member then I would never give you this second chance. I need to save my own ass.



I find this quote quite revealing:

1 Lucky you. If I were a DT or staff or even high ranked member then I would never give you this second chance. I need to save my own ass.

Why do I care ? I don't feel that it benefits the forum. Bitcointalk has a reputation of being an abusive (even encouraged and merited ) , largely unmoderated place where scams are promoted, KYC accounts sold, people voice their grievances and has a large volume of low quality posts.

There are far more serious issues in this forum that are ignored.

Only the most serious and proven deliberate merit abuse should be dealt with in this way.



When people apply strict rules to strangers they should apply those same rules to themselves and those close to them.

In this case in my opinion is being highly hypocritical. There are a number of accusations that have been made that have just been ignored here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3168616.msg37774968#msg37774968




Mdayonliner is not a DT so many people just laugh it off because his feedback is harmless. It doesn't mean that the conduct is acceptable. It just means that it is of little consequence.




The method of the ultimatum can be seen here:



- Seriously(!) Be my guest my friend. I will give you 24 hours of time to admit your mistake on my red trust removal topic or I will bring this issue in public and will take feedback from the community. You think I care about your red turst? The reason I will bring the issue in public to prove that I my ground is right and yours is wrong.




Anyway 24 hours (click for countdown) to admit your mistake or I will ask feedback from the community since I need to prove my ground is right to the community.


FAQ: Everything you need to know about forum 'activity, account ranks and merit https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0

KEYWORD: Everything





Quote

Here there is evidence that there is "merit abuse" by his alt account or "brother"




Edited https://i.imgur.com/Jnge3sr.png / replaced previous image with error



Most merit obtained from posting in threads with "merit" as the subject. (I probably even missed a few)

It is clear to me and others that "merit" is extremely important to you and that it is the motivation for some of your conduct.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4104852.msg38101744#msg38101744

The red is where merit was given and received from the same users or KNOWN alts / family.

Why do I care ? - normally I wouldn't.

But I am holding you to the standard that you are applying to others.


Do I think you exchanged feedback  ? - yes I do. Not just with your brother. Just check the matching dates.

Do I think you merit farm ? Yes - by deliberately posting in lots of merit related topics.

I've given you the same replies you give others. HERE

It made you really angry and you haven't answered the accusations.

Why am I doing this ? To point out the hypocracy of your actions.
(Not to accuse other users)
2056  Other / Meta / Re: [New format] Merit Abuser Gang [Now 18 Cases and 14th yet to be completed] on: May 19, 2018, 10:06:00 AM
Case#19

mdayonliner is endorsing giving merit away as "prizes" in a signature campaign and his signature is "for rent". Win $25 + 4 Merits every week!






Here there is evidence that there is "merit abuse" by his alt account or "brother"




Edited https://i.imgur.com/Jnge3sr.png / replaced previous image with error



Most merit obtained from posting in threads with "merit" as the subject. (I probably even missed a few)

It is clear to me and others that "merit" is extremely important to you and that it is the motivation for some of your conduct.

It shows motive

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4104852.msg38101744#msg38101744

The red is where merit was given and received from the same users or KNOWN alts / family.

Why do I care ? - normally I wouldn't.

But I am holding you to the standard that you are applying to others.

Do I think you exchanged merit  ? - yes I do. Not just with your brother. Just check the matching dates.

Do I think you are merit farming with targetted posts  ? - yes I do.

I've given you the same replies you give others. HERE

It made you really angry and you haven't answered the accusations.

Why am I doing this ? To point out the hypocracy of your actions.
2057  Other / Meta / Re: [update - 09/05] Merit Abuser Gang [17 Cases and 14th yet to be completed] on: May 19, 2018, 07:40:09 AM
Case#17

xtraelv and Lafu

xtraelv's merit summary
Received
User
Sent
11Lafu
19
20cryptodevil
Null

xtraelv received 5 times total of 11 merits from Lafu and in return 3 times he/she sent 19 merits to Lafu. Were there no one for xtraelv to send his sMerits?

I doubt they are not misusing their sMerits.

PS: From I decided not to tag anyone, too much heat to take for me. I will leave these evidence for the DT or mods.






It would have been nice to know when someone tries to dob me in - for something that has a simple explaination. A message would have been a minimum courtesy.

If he had sent a simple message to me I would have offered an explaination. I didn't even know what "smerit " was until recently. Lafu helps out a lot of people on the forum. It said that smerits could expire in the future so I gave it to him. I didn't even know that he had given me merit until recently when I found out that merit existed. I don't even see what the big deal is. I couldn't care less about merit I receive.

The merits were given in accordance to the rules: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177.0



It is likely that oneliner has some hidden agenda against me - perhaps even a sockpuppet or rent-a-troll of someone I have busted for running scams on bitcointalk or elsewhere.
Oh well - you got my attention - briefly - and now ignored, tagged and message blocked.

I don't negotiate with scammers and blackmailers and wear their reds with pride.

Lafu gives almost daily advise on bitcointalk  - I think I'm allowed to give merits for that. It even said not to keep them because they might expire.

Clearly not an alt since Lafu doesn't even live on the same continent as me.

The "contact me " and second chance T&C's looks like basic blackmail by a user that has no offical role on bitcointalk. I've tagged accordingly.





mdayonliner is endorsing giving merit away as "prizes" in a signature campaign and his signature is "for rent". How hypocritical is that ?





2058  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Cryptopia Cryptocurrency Platform Services and Development on: May 19, 2018, 02:55:40 AM
Can someone please take care of this ticket, it has been open for over a year.


Thank you,

-Kushed

WOW you deserve a medal for patience dude ! I don't know what the issue was but certainly that length of time means it has slipped through the cracks. Support times have been reduced down to a few days now in most cases a few weeks for more difficult cases.

]
2059  Economy / Exchanges / Re: LiveCoin.net > Buy/Sell/Exchange BTC/LTC/DASH/EMC & USD/EUR/RUR on: May 17, 2018, 09:18:23 AM
Disclaimer: I do not work for livecoin - I don't even have a current account there.


Let's examine what's been said:

If we send all our news to all our customers, our mail servers would be overloaded and blocked in no time, and nobody would receive any newsletters from us at all.

This is utter nonsense. Unless the people behind the website are totally incompetent, which is clearly a possibility (and if true you should withdraw your funds anyway).  Sending a large volume of email does not mean you will be blocked, that is simply a lie.  Stating that your servers would get overloaded is a clear sign that you don't understand the basic technology; just add more servers.  In addition, no-one expects you to send all news to all customers (unless they opt in to that).  But if a customer has traded a coin that is being delisted, or holds a coin that is being delisted, then of course they should be sent a mail about that.  And after it is delisted, there is no reason to remove the customers access to those funds.  Providing access to delisted wallets costs you almost nothing.  The same goes for changing a customers deposit address, just send them an email.  And if they ignore the email and discover their mistake later put in place a way for them to recover funds - even if they need to pay a fee.  By not doing this you are simply stealing from these people and when the authorities find out you will be arrested, imprisoned and the service will be shut down (more below on how you can help achieve this).

Coinexchange got blocked by spamhaus for "spamming" their users. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1532173.380

"Just adding servers" is an overly simplistic comment made by people that generally have no understanding of the scale of running an exchange and what is involved. Databases, software engines and staff resources are all required. Sometimes the databases are unable to be scaled without spending extensive time upgrading them. Often the number of servers required are of such a large scale that special orders have to be placed and they cannot just be bought off the shelf. It also is dependant on the hosting providers and bandwidth available.

The customers sign up to use their service - it is not unreasonable to publish changes on the site that they signed up to.

Coins are often delisted for a reason. The coin network may not be operational or the coin may have a fork or coinswap. When a coin is delisted on an exchange the exchange clearly doesn't want to deal with the coin anymore. A reasonable delist period is usually given. (Bittrex 2 weeks & most exchanges give 1 month notice)

The purpose of an exchange wallet is so users can trade on the exchange. If you don't log in for a month and don't check the news page then you are not actively trading on the exchange and it is poor practice to keep those funds on an exchange.  

To keep obsolete wallets going or require an exchange to continue supporting a delisted coin with wallet upgrades and coin network changes is impractical and uses resources for no financial return. It is not reasonable to expect any exchange to support a coin after a reasonable delist period and it is certainly not industry practice to support delisted coins after a set deadline.
 

You clearly use the news feed to hide and obscure extremely important from your customers.  Why would someone who has only traded say ETH/USD care about PIN/BTC or MAID for example.  Your tedious reply of blah blah stated very clearly in the User agreement blah is not a defence.  Your user agreement is invalid because you use it to execute predatory business practices on innocent users.  You make the service so difficult for some people to understand that your strategy of systematic theft is blatantly clear.

It is really important for people who trade on an exchange to check their wallet before sending, check news pages and be aware of events that affect their coins. Never keep funds on an exchange if it doesn't need to be there.

An exchange cannot choose who uses their services - therefore it is realy important that the customer who makes the choice reads the terms of trade before trading there.

Predatory business practices have to be proven. Often terms of trade are upheld. You have to have really good legal reasons for them to be set aside.
I'm not familiar with the laws of Belize.

in case of a mistake, the funds would be irrevocably lost

This is correct in a lot of cases. When a deposit address is changed - it is usually for a technical reason.
It may show on the blockchain but that does not mean it is recoverable. There are many potential technical reasons why it would not be recoverable.
If a coin is delisted there is not an infinite support time.


More lies, this one is a whopper (ignoring any case where the wrong currency was sent to a wallet - this can't usually be rectified).  The funds are on the blockchain!  You have the keys to the wallets, in fact some users appear to have witnessed funds being removed from their wallets without them being credited to their account.  These funds have been stolen, I just can't see another way to look at this.  

Where the wrong currency is sent to a wallet a cross chain recovery can often be done. Some wallets are not compatible. Not all exchanges support cross chain recoveries.

Users often mistake their funds from being swept from their deposit address to an exchange hot or cold wallet as "theft" of their coins. This is a totally seperate process from crediting the amount to the exchange ledger (showing available funds)
Sometimes large exchange wallets experience technical issues. Exchange wallets are very different from personal wallets - they have millions of transactions and often thousands of private keys.

In some cases when wallets start to malfunction the deposit addresses have to be changed. This is often a coin specific issue because the wallet cannot handle the amount of transactions contained in the wallet. In such a scenario it is hard enough to access the existing funds in such a wallet and people continuing to deposit make it even more difficult. Some wallets have hardcoded transaction limits - they are unusable when they reach the limit.
This is not an issue for personal wallets - but can be an issue for exchange wallets.
Exchanges do not earn anything from holding user funds - they make their earnings from people trading. When someone uses an exchange as a bank they are doing something risky, freeloading (using a service for which they are not paying) and using a service for which it was not designed.

Interesting article here with their CEO : https://blockchainindustrygroup.org/the-livecoin-cryptocurrency-exchange-with-ivona-zlatova/
2060  Economy / Exchanges / Re: LiveCoin.net > Buy/Sell/Exchange BTC/LTC/DASH/EMC & USD/EUR/RUR on: May 17, 2018, 07:37:16 AM
I’m not reading their news section with 50 posts a month.
....
Apparently they posted in their news section that they changed the deposit addresses, they didn’t email me or showed a notification in my account clearly.

We always inform of the forthcoming de-listing of a certain coin in our public news releases. We have never ever mentioned, that we  send this kind of notifications by e-mail. The customers should follow the news on their own, it is stated very clearly in the User agreement.

We have announced about the change of BTC deposit addresses well in advance, and then for a whole following month supported the old addresses. At least twice we reminded to all the customers to generate new addresses, https://www.livecoin.net/en/news/view/590 https://www.livecoin.net/en/news/view/620. All important information is available at our web-site in the news section, and all clients are informed about all new notifications additionally by means of alerts in the top section of our website.

Before starting trade at our Exchange you accepted the User Agreement, which has a provision, that you would not have any claims to the Exchange if the loss of funds was caused by your own mistake or negligence.

If you don't want to follow the news and you need a long-term storage of your coins, then you can withdraw funds to your personal wallet and send them back when you need this.

Banging on about your user agreement is not an appropriate answer.  Changing customer's deposit addresses is way too important to hide in a news feed.  You should have actively informed each user that the address has changed.  And even if they ignore that message, you then need to provide a way for users to recover those funds even if it means they pay something.  By not doing this you are simply stealing funds from your customers, there are no other words for it.  What you are doing isn't legal in any country, regardless of what is says in your user agreement.

Does anyone on here know what the legal entity is behind livecoin.net?  I've searched the Belize government companies register and RED VELVET INVESTMENTS LTD doesn't exist.  They are doing a pretty good job of hiding themselves.  Presumably because they are a criminal organisation, just preying on customers who make innocent mistakes.

@LiveCoin is you aren't a criminal organisation please answer: what is the legal entity behind livecoin.net? Where is it registered?  And please post a government link to the company registration.

How many people on here have lost funds? Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/livecoin/ would be a better place to discuss?

I'm very weary of any company registered in Belize but it does appear to be registered.

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