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Author Topic: [1200 TH] EMC: 0 Fee DGM. Anonymous PPS. US & EU servers. No Registration!  (Read 461625 times)
Inaba
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March 08, 2012, 03:57:14 AM
 #2021

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.

Consider DGM like a capacitor, you build up charge in the beginning, and as long as you keep mining, you don't lose charge.  Once you stop mining, you lose charge slowly and you get paid out even if you aren't "charging" the capacitor by mining, until it's completely empty.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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GenTarkin
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March 08, 2012, 03:42:06 PM
 #2022

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.

Consider DGM like a capacitor, you build up charge in the beginning, and as long as you keep mining, you don't lose charge.  Once you stop mining, you lose charge slowly and you get paid out even if you aren't "charging" the capacitor by mining, until it's completely empty.
Isnt that what normal old prop / score does?

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Inaba
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March 08, 2012, 04:05:13 PM
 #2023

Nope, you don't get paid past the round you were mining in with prop.  With DGM, you get paid for ~7 blocks after you stop mining.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
cabin
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March 08, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
 #2024

Not sure if this is at all relevant.. but using the rc1 bitcoind build after yesterday results in huge problems. There was discussion about it in the P2Pool thread as well.

Oops. I see you posted about that above as well. It will be the same problem in 2 weeks and every 2 weeks after that I think until the P2SH date is set in stone.

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Inaba
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March 08, 2012, 05:31:16 PM
 #2025

Yeah, looks like the same problem.  So it dates back much farther than rc1, since my base predates even the 600 release candidates or betas.

Ugh... I really don't want to go in and fix all the code again, it's a major pain patching in all my changes for the pool into bitcoind.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
Meni Rosenfeld
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March 08, 2012, 05:59:48 PM
 #2026

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.

Consider DGM like a capacitor, you build up charge in the beginning, and as long as you keep mining, you don't lose charge.  Once you stop mining, you lose charge slowly and you get paid out even if you aren't "charging" the capacitor by mining, until it's completely empty.
Isnt that what normal old prop / score does?
In some sense, pretty much any reward system is similar to a capacitor if you stretch the analogy enough. But quantitatively, DGM behaves much more like a physical capacitor than other methods, which is why the analogy is more appropriate for it.

Notably, in hoppable methods the effect of shares on the capacitor depends on the pool's history, so some times are better than others.

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.
DGM doesn't care about the pool's history. When you mine continuously the capacitor is at its full charge level (with some caveats irrelevant to the current topic). When you stop mining the capacitor starts discharging in a way that doesn't depend on the fact that 6.7M shares were already submitted in the round. What matters is not that you missed 20% of the block, but that you didn't mine for 1.7M shares, which with the current parameters is enough for your score to decay to the 40% level. Other hopping-proof methods are similar.

The mistake people make is thinking that the proportional method is some sort of gold standard other methods should measure up to. It's not, it's just a broken method. Looking at the % of shares submitted in the current round is meaningless.

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cabin
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March 08, 2012, 06:21:01 PM
 #2027

Yeah, looks like the same problem.  So it dates back much farther than rc1, since my base predates even the 600 release candidates or betas.

Ugh... I really don't want to go in and fix all the code again, it's a major pain patching in all my changes for the pool into bitcoind.


Apparently it can be 'fixed' by adjusting this commandline param as well: -paytoscripthashtime=1333238400 .. maybe that is easier on you.

(from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63165.msg789043#msg789043)

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Inaba
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March 08, 2012, 06:39:25 PM
 #2028

Ok, looks like that problem doesn't apply to my current base (I already had it set to April 1st anyway).

Whew... was dreading repatching everything, yuck!

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
cuz0882
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March 08, 2012, 09:57:55 PM
 #2029

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.

Consider DGM like a capacitor, you build up charge in the beginning, and as long as you keep mining, you don't lose charge.  Once you stop mining, you lose charge slowly and you get paid out even if you aren't "charging" the capacitor by mining, until it's completely empty.
Isnt that what normal old prop / score does?
In some sense, pretty much any reward system is similar to a capacitor if you stretch the analogy enough. But quantitatively, DGM behaves much more like a physical capacitor than other methods, which is why the analogy is more appropriate for it.

Notably, in hoppable methods the effect of shares on the capacitor depends on the pool's history, so some times are better than others.

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.
DGM doesn't care about the pool's history. When you mine continuously the capacitor is at its full charge level (with some caveats irrelevant to the current topic). When you stop mining the capacitor starts discharging in a way that doesn't depend on the fact that 6.7M shares were already submitted in the round. What matters is not that you missed 20% of the block, but that you didn't mine for 1.7M shares, which with the current parameters is enough for your score to decay to the 40% level. Other hopping-proof methods are similar.

The mistake people make is thinking that the proportional method is some sort of gold standard other methods should measure up to. It's not, it's just a broken method. Looking at the % of shares submitted in the current round is meaningless.
Like I said its confusing. Even the eclipse FAQ section refers to making money off pool hoppers. DGM does not give you a less proportional pay out because you missed the last part of the round.

Meni "DGM doesn't care at all when you started or stopped mining. It doesn't try to detect hoppers and punish them. It rewards each share separately, in a way that is independent of the past and thus does not offer any incentive to hop."
cyberlync
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March 08, 2012, 11:08:49 PM
 #2030

Wow, 737 GH/s, highest I've seen here Shocked

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Electricbees
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March 09, 2012, 06:59:22 AM
 #2031

Wow, 737 GH/s, highest I've seen here Shocked
It's a mighty fine pool! Cheesy

Donations are welcome!
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March 09, 2012, 07:59:27 AM
 #2032


We found 3 blocks in a 2 minute period. I'd just like to draw attention to that Four-Second Block.



That is all.

Donations are welcome!
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Meni Rosenfeld
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March 09, 2012, 08:11:12 AM
 #2033

Like I said its confusing. Even the eclipse FAQ section refers to making money off pool hoppers. DGM does not give you a less proportional pay out because you missed the last part of the round.

Meni "DGM doesn't care at all when you started or stopped mining. It doesn't try to detect hoppers and punish them. It rewards each share separately, in a way that is independent of the past and thus does not offer any incentive to hop."
I agree that this FAQ answer is poorly worded. I guess it was intended as "relative to proportional". Proportional loses to hopping, DGM is indifferent, so cross-relatively, DGM gains from hopping - [(Hoppers in DGM - normal miners in DGM) - (Hoppers in Prop - Normal in Prop)] = [0 - negative] = positive.

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March 09, 2012, 09:10:50 AM
 #2034

Anyone else's earnings for those lucky blocks really low? (A little more than half)

No, I wasn't playing BF3, and my shares/total shares ratio was unchanged.
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March 09, 2012, 09:54:44 AM
 #2035

Inaba,

 How hard is to enable more coins @ EclipseMC?!
 Like IXCoin, I0Coin and Devcoin?!

Best!
Thiago

Mercado Forex acessível para todos os Brasileiros que tenham Bitcoins! Cadastre-se hoje mesmo! Bastar acessar aqui: https://1broker.com/m/r.php?i=8879
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March 09, 2012, 10:07:26 AM
 #2036

This is a new reward system for mining pools, a hybrid between PPLNS and the geometric method which combines advantages of both. It starts with PPLNS-like low share-based variance without operator risk, and then allows the operator to absorb some variance to decrease pool-based variance (which the geometric method can do, but not PPLNS). It is of course hopping-proof - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted. The variance and the maturity time (the time it takes to receive the reward) are independent of the pool's history and almost completely independent of future difficulty changes.

The bold part really sums it well for me. People need to look at DGM like it's PPS, even if at first it doesn't seem so - because it's a "PPS" that gets delayed over several blocks. But it's there - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted.
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March 09, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
 #2037

Inaba,

 How hard is to enable more coins @ EclipseMC?!
 Like IXCoin, I0Coin and Devcoin?!

Best!
Thiago

Why would we need ScamCoins  Huh
ThiagoCMC
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March 09, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
 #2038

Inaba,

 How hard is to enable more coins @ EclipseMC?!
 Like IXCoin, I0Coin and Devcoin?!

Best!
Thiago

Why would we need ScamCoins  Huh

Because it is fun!! Tongue

And... Because this pool have it: http://mmpool.bitparking.com/pool

So, why we can't have it too?!

Also, with P2Pool we can enable even more coins...

Best!
Thiago

Mercado Forex acessível para todos os Brasileiros que tenham Bitcoins! Cadastre-se hoje mesmo! Bastar acessar aqui: https://1broker.com/m/r.php?i=8879
Meni Rosenfeld
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March 09, 2012, 10:34:17 AM
 #2039

This is a new reward system for mining pools, a hybrid between PPLNS and the geometric method which combines advantages of both. It starts with PPLNS-like low share-based variance without operator risk, and then allows the operator to absorb some variance to decrease pool-based variance (which the geometric method can do, but not PPLNS). It is of course hopping-proof - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted. The variance and the maturity time (the time it takes to receive the reward) are independent of the pool's history and almost completely independent of future difficulty changes.

The bold part really sums it well for me. People need to look at DGM like it's PPS, even if at first it doesn't seem so - because it's a "PPS" that gets delayed over several blocks. But it's there - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted.
There's also some variance (caused by luck in future finding of blocks), not just delay. Of course, over the long run it should not be significant.

Quote from: Vbs
Omelette du Fromage!
That's all you can say! That's all you can say, that's all you can say...

1EofoZNBhWQ3kxfKnvWkhtMns4AivZArhr   |   Who am I?   |   bitcoin-otc WoT
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March 09, 2012, 11:12:09 AM
 #2040

Inaba,

 How hard is to enable more coins @ EclipseMC?!
 Like IXCoin, I0Coin and Devcoin?!

Best!
Thiago

Why would we need ScamCoins  Huh

Because it is fun!! Tongue

And... Because this pool have it: http://mmpool.bitparking.com/pool

So, why we can't have it too?!

Also, with P2Pool we can enable even more coins...

Best!
Thiago

The more different blockchains you mine, the more longpolls you are going to get, which is no small issue..........
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