Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Ytterbium]

Looks like there are several 100THs+ farms going online not far apart, killing each others ROI. Just look how much of the net hash ASICminers have now, it's dropped right off. Each of their business plans doesn't know what new farms are doing online as competitors. I still feel the future of mining will be thousands of small backyard setups that need no aircon, datacenter rental, or staff wages. Bitcoin is designed to eat the margin of big players.

I agree and find it rather comical when I hear suggestions that only huge mining operations will survive in the near future. It may well be exactly the opposite.

Why would they need air conditioning? You just pump in a lot of air from the outside. Most likely mining will gravitate to low-cost power sites like WA/Vancouver/Ukraine/Kuwait.

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[ranmn7]

Looks like there are several 100THs+ farms going online not far apart, killing each others ROI. Just look how much of the net hash ASICminers have now, it's dropped right off. Each of their business plans doesn't know what new farms are doing online as competitors. I still feel the future of mining will be thousands of small backyard setups that need no aircon, datacenter rental, or staff wages. Bitcoin is designed to eat the margin of big players.

I agree and find it rather comical when I hear suggestions that only huge mining operations will survive in the near future. It may well be exactly the opposite.

And maybe some of us smaller miners will get good deals on used hardware.

[btc_uzr]

My theory is this: They won't announce anything. They'll simply start providing tracking numbers to customers. Let the customers spread the word like fire to a pinetree farm. That'll be the best announcement which could ever be made.

Paul Revere's ride would hold nothing compared to KNC customers screaming they have tracking numbers.

You had me at hello....this would be an awesome way to let the news drop.

We'll actually see our units hashing on our pool accounts before they send them.

I don't think so.

Remember they stated that they ship on the day of production.
Put in a tracking-number for a day1 order, then you'll see  'Shipping on day 1 of production'
for ex. http://i43.tinypic.com/29e6p8p.jpg (found via google)
 
They will tell us some days before they start shipping, to ensure everyone can take a day off in order to be at home when the postman rings the bell.

So you expect them to ship untested units?

1) They are going to test the units
2) They are going to use people's pool IDs to do their testing.

So there is no way for someone to get a unit without seeing their unit hash on their pool first.

EDIT: I suppose it's possible they might send tracking numbers before they test. But presumably they are going to want to test for a while.  I don't think customers are going to mind a "delay" where the machines are actually online and hashing with power they don't need to pay for.

No, I expect they test boxes before sending them, as well as that info about the day of shipping will be announced before there's activity on the test pool account. Not a tracking number, but info about the exact day.

[timmmers]

These huge farms will kill our chances of a profit to some extent, they will put people off the game because of the estimates from calculators looking bleak, then they will eat each other.

All in a pretty short time frame.

I think the system was designed with this possibility in mind and this scenario is a kind of defence mechanism to try and make sure too large a commercial concern won't prosper over a large network of smaller miners...which is the whole idea really isn't it?

Not great for us now, but when the dust settles it may improve. After all consider the fact that you can stop mining for 6 months and then see it become easier and restart...unlike a farm, they will long since have gone out of business, they can't afford to be idle as long as you. A drop in difficulty would probably be too late to help them, but you'd be a click away from mining again

[btc_uzr]

regarding farms like

 https://www.cloudhashing.com/frequently-asked-questions
  "A1: (...) We are currently mining and by September 2013, will be operating at over 115 terahashes. This number will climb steeply to 300 terahashes by November 2013. "
  "A2: We expect mining for September contracts to start by 26th September 2013 (...)"
 
beside that..the date might be a hint for us regarding day1..?

edit:
actually it's not a farm I guess, since they offer their hashrate to customers..mining as a service

[erk]

regarding farms like

 https://www.cloudhashing.com/frequently-asked-questions
  "A1: (...) We are currently mining and by September 2013, will be operating at over 115 terahashes. This number will climb steeply to 300 terahashes by November 2013. "
  "A2: We expect mining for September contracts to start by 26th September 2013 (...)"
 
beside that..the date might be a hint for us regarding day1..?

edit:
actually it's not a farm I guess, since they offer their hashrate to customers..mining as a service

So how much is 300TH/s going to cost them to buy and run? I punched the figures into http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ and it reckons the 300TH/s might make ROI in a couple of months, but it's a gamble because you don't know who else is coming online, the estimates are only at the known current growth rate. If it were me I would simply put the $millions into buying bitcoins, I don't see economies of scale.

I think it's quite funny that KNCminer talk about the ethics of ROI and taking a break until March for the net hash etc. Yet they are happy to support mega farms that totally fly in the face of the distributed hash concept of Bitcoin.

When the Hashfast, Cointerra, Avalon gen2, ASICminer gen2 all dump onto the market, 300TH/s will be a small player. BFL probably  still have 300TH/s of back orders to fill as well on their current 65nm products. The ASIC vendors are releasing too many TH/s per day, that's going to kill their own market, as the net hash is growing way faster than moores law, meaning they will rapidly run out of efficiency gains from technological advances, and the farms will collapse under their running costs. ASIC hardware is a classic pump and dump, it's didn't need to be that way, the hardware vendors have made it so, they could have sustained a sensible rollout for years.

[DPoS]

Thought I'd have some fun...

that looks nice bro!

[ImI]

Yet they are happy to support mega farms

Source?

[DPoS]

These huge farms will kill our chances of a profit to some extent, they will put people off the game because of the estimates from calculators looking bleak, then they will eat each other.

All in a pretty short time frame.

I think the system was designed with this possibility in mind and this scenario is a kind of defence mechanism to try and make sure too large a commercial concern won't prosper over a large network of smaller miners...which is the whole idea really isn't it?

Not great for us now, but when the dust settles it may improve. After all consider the fact that you can stop mining for 6 months and then see it become easier and restart...unlike a farm, they will long since have gone out of business, they can't afford to be idle as long as you. A drop in difficulty would probably be too late to help them, but you'd be a click away from mining again

It's odd.. everyone assumes there are these 'others' that will take the diff to the moon even without ROI... 

So is mining just for non-ROI types?   Ones who don't mind paying more to make fresh coins instead of just buying them or perhaps folks that are 'too dumb to know better'?

OR..  will difficulty slow down since there really aren't that many of those in the non-ROI camp?

[erk]

Yet they are happy to support mega farms

Source?

Um, the post I will commenting on above. Also I guess you haven't heard of things like ASICminer and 100TH

[-Redacted-]

What do either of those have to do with KNC?

[erk]

What do either of those have to do with KNC?

Like KNC they are ASIC manufactures that supply big farms, and contributed to an oversupply of BTC hashing power that's killing most miners ROI.

[AussieHash]

Yet they are happy to support mega farms

Well they might not be happy with mega mines, but they wouldn't necessarily stop any individual from buying 110TH of product.

[erk]

Yet they are happy to support mega farms

Well they might not be happy with mega mines, but they wouldn't necessarily stop any individual from buying 110TH of product.

Problem with that is, 110TH/s of KNCminer gear pulls about 176kWatts, so I don't see you putting that in the garage, that means data center, aircon costs etc. to kill your profitability. However, I could see an individual with a couple of Jupiters in their garage, no aircon just an exhaust fan having a viable mining rig.

The irony is, KNCminer are clearly designing for the data center rack user, the least viable form of mining.

[rolling]

Yet they are happy to support mega farms

Well they might not be happy with mega mines, but they wouldn't necessarily stop any individual from buying 110TH of product.

Problem with that is, 110TH/s of KNCminer gear pulls about 176kWatts, so I don't see you putting that in the garage, that means data center, aircon costs etc. to kill your profitability. However, I could see an individual with a couple of Jupiters in their garage, no aircon just an exhaust fan having a viable mining rig.

The irony is, KNCminer are clearly designing for the data center rack user, the least viable form of mining.

If they are designing for a data center rack user, they failed.  I don't think that is the case (too narrow, too tall, external power). If they did design it for rack use, it would not make it unusable at home. 

Personally, I hope they make the next version perfect for data centers because the sooner all of the big players bankrupt themselves trying to put these in a data center, the sooner the rest of us make a profit.

[erk]

If they are designing for a data center rack user, they failed.  I don't think that is the case (too narrow, too tall, external power). If they did design it for rack use, it would not make it unusable at home.  

Personally, I hope they make the next version perfect for data centers because the sooner all of the big players bankrupt themselves trying to put these in a data center, the sooner the rest of us make a profit.

The case is designed to fit in a 19" rack, hence the staggered module layout and air baffles.


I too am counting on the big players to bankrupt themselves and restore some normality to the bitcoin network.

Happy to wait and pick up a Jupiter next year on eBay for a couple of hundred bucks from a failed data center farm, and run it off solar.

 

The Bitcoin net hash is over 950TH/s atm. could be 1PH/s by the weekend. I bet the farms weren't expecting that mid September!

[tolip_wen]

I absolutely reject the idea that the vendors SHOULD or could somehow limit growth.

It is a free market, literally, and one of the attractions is no overlords, government or otherwise.

To suggest vendors should somehow discriminate based on size of order does not compute.

Business is business, the whole idea is to make money.
If you think that is not true then you have no valid complain't that you won't get yours.

IMneverHO

And now for something completely different

<open_mouth_change_feet>
Back on topic, I emailed KnC asking if they would use the installed Angstrom or another distro.
No reply yet, but we could arguediscuss the merits of the choices available.

I could see them using uSD cards (with whatever OS) instead of the pre-installed OS  just to speed up delivery. This would be cool in that the Angstrom would still be there waiting for a powerup with the uSD removed.

All I can add at this point is that I have compared Deb and Angstrom mining and each works equally with block ruptures and a BBB. same same bfg vs cg

We should in theory be able to change it no matter what they choose considering they are using cgminer and it is open source.

Someone will likely put out a simple to install image file with their favorite distro shortly after they start hitting the doorsteps.

I'm partial to slackware personally but do not recommend it to the un-initated.

</open_mouth_change_feet>

YMMV

Soon!

[rolling]

The case is designed to fit in a 19" rack, hence the staggered module layout and air baffles.

The case is only 400mm or 15.748 inches wide rather than 19".  This means, it will "fit" in a rack with a shelf but it is not necessarily designed for a rack.

[btcusr]

Instead of September shipment, preorders should be in terms of total network hash rates, like, "we'll ship before total network hash rate reaches 1PHash".

If there are any delays then like say, 10 days and total network hash rate jumped to 2PHash at that time, then 10 days loss (minus shipment time) should be paid by the vendor.

This way we know they are also willing to ship ASAP.

May be they can price miners bit higher for doing this, instead of giving users assumption of 1 month break even.

Just saying.

[demonmaestro]

And yet ya seriously think that they give 2 shits about the network hash rate. They are producing a product that is being purchased. ROI ROI ROI that is the only thing ya talk about. BitCoin is an investment and not a stable one. It may pay out and it may not. Just the way the ball bounces. So enjoy your carrot when it gets here and quit bitching.