Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[vesperwillow]

Go back to the rock you came from.     Go buy some BFL miners!

No thanks.  You want to be rude?  I can be rude!  Go back to jail cell you came from.
How dare you aid in the commission of a fraud!
While you are at it, I have a bridge in Brooklin you can buy for 100BTC and a Nigerian prince that wants, no NEEDS your help!  Yes YOUR help!  He wants to give you 10% of his Royal treasury and his daughter but he needs 12k USD to transfer his money via his agent that is abroad in the UK.

That... wasn't really rude. Kinda just drolling on.

[Ytterbium]

In short, as a US incorporated company, Bitsyncom is f**ked, and their sudden offer to refund has nothing whatsoever to do with integrity or kindness. You'd be naive to think otherwise buddy.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. As much as it irritates bitcoiners, it's not illegal to ship something late.

"How is each batch’s unit price determined?

The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details."

It's not illegal to estimate how much profit someone will make buying equipment, it doesn't somehow make a miner a 'security'

The Pirateat40 guy was just a straight up ponzi schemer, not a manufacturer who simply delivered stuff late.  If it was illegal to be late with gear then all of BFL_Josh would be in gitmo by now.

[Bitcoinorama]

I am shocked anyone fell for this SCAM!
If you believe that a company entered into manufacturing out of love, goodwill, and in the interest of preventing monopoly I roll my eyes at you.
It is the business of manufacturing miners for profit or manufacturing lies for profit.
And they are not manufacturing miners for profit.

Read up on the subject, there's a difference between engineers and hustlers (the negative kind). Do you understand ORSoC's involvement in this? They build a bleeding edge 28nm ASIC faster that anyone else ever has - not just Bitcoin related, any industry, they receive industry accolade, that's a huge springboard, and is the motivation of engineers worldwide, to do things faster, better and more capable than anyone ever has before. ORSoC then becomes a much larger player in the scheme of things, again not the Bitcoin fraternity, that's a small-time niche in the integrated circuit engineering world. This is just a fun project you are putting wayy too much emphasis on. Like ASICs are merely a period within transitionary Bitcoins history, this ASIC 'project' is purely a 'transistionary' period in ORSoC's history that gains them recognition - hence the purpose in underpromising, because if you over deliver on expectation, not only do customers rate you, so do your piers. Fact.

[Bitcoinorama]

In short, as a US incorporated company, Bitsyncom is f**ked, and their sudden offer to refund has nothing whatsoever to do with integrity or kindness. You'd be naive to think otherwise buddy.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. As much as it irritates bitcoiners, it's not illegal to ship something late.

"How is each batch’s unit price determined?

The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details."

It's not illegal to estimate how much profit someone will make buying equipment, it doesn't somehow make a miner a 'security'

The Pirateat40 guy was just a straight up ponzi schemer, not a manufacturer who simply delivered stuff late.  If it was illegal to be late with gear then all of BFL_Josh would be in gitmo by now.

No you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It is illegal to mention the word 'investment', or promise a 'return on investment' and then make that part of your terms of sale via the use of a clickwrap when you are an unregulated financial service.

"Please read this carefully, as with all things Bitcoin one should treat this as an investment and make the decision best for you based on the liquid-able funds available at the moment when placing an order.

I accept the terms and the potential risks involved with placing an order."

If you want to hold and transmit money in any way you will need to comply with money transmitter laws. Bitcoin has been recognised as a currency on a Federal level. Bitsyncom has claimed to offer an investment by which they hold your funds and offer a return over a given period and then made you click to agree to those terms.

To compound this, there is the shadiness of the fact they pre-mined and purposely delayed equipment with a premeditated knowledge of the effect on promised returns, this is known and provable and had a direct detrimental effect on their customers 'investment', along with the allegations by their own staff they were in possession of significant numbers of chips from the end of June, before dropping all contact for a couple of months until legal action was threatened.

There is a significant difference between the above and what they should have stuck to, i.e. they manufacture a machine that spits Bitcoins, that is all the machine does, and is not priced on a return on investment.

[tarmi]

It is illegal to mention the word 'investment', or promise a 'return on investment'

catch-22

[FUKT]

I am shocked anyone fell for this SCAM!
If you believe that a company entered into manufacturing out of love, goodwill, and in the interest of preventing monopoly I roll my eyes at you.
It is the business of manufacturing miners for profit or manufacturing lies for profit.
And they are not manufacturing miners for profit.

Read up on the subject, there's a difference between engineers and hustlers (the negative kind). Do you understand ORSoC's involvement in this? They build a bleeding edge 28nm ASIC faster that anyone else ever has - not just Bitcoin related, any industry, they receive industry accolade, that's a huge springboard, and is the motivation of engineers worldwide, to do things faster, better and more capable than anyone ever has before. ORSoC then becomes a much larger player in the scheme of things, again not the Bitcoin fraternity, that's a small-time niche in the integrated circuit engineering world. This is just a fun project you are putting wayy too much emphasis on. Like ASICs are merely a period within transitionary Bitcoins history, this ASIC 'project' is purely a 'transistionary' period in ORSoC's history that gains them recognition - hence the purpose in underpromising, because if you over deliver on expectation, not only do customers rate you, so do your piers. Fact.

I prefer a jetty.

[Biomech]

I am shocked anyone fell for this SCAM!
If you believe that a company entered into manufacturing out of love, goodwill, and in the interest of preventing monopoly I roll my eyes at you.
It is the business of manufacturing miners for profit or manufacturing lies for profit.
And they are not manufacturing miners for profit.

Read up on the subject, there's a difference between engineers and hustlers (the negative kind). Do you understand ORSoC's involvement in this? They build a bleeding edge 28nm ASIC faster that anyone else ever has - not just Bitcoin related, any industry, they receive industry accolade, that's a huge springboard, and is the motivation of engineers worldwide, to do things faster, better and more capable than anyone ever has before. ORSoC then becomes a much larger player in the scheme of things, again not the Bitcoin fraternity, that's a small-time niche in the integrated circuit engineering world. This is just a fun project you are putting wayy too much emphasis on. Like ASICs are merely a period within transitionary Bitcoins history, this ASIC 'project' is purely a 'transistionary' period in ORSoC's history that gains them recognition - hence the purpose in underpromising, because if you over deliver on expectation, not only do customers rate you, so do your piers. Fact.

I prefer a jetty.

Damn, ya beat me to it! (sorry "Rama, it's just funny)

[joae1975]

I foresee ASIC development getting so advanced that it will evolve into an artificially intelligent life form (by accident) and the destruction of the human race, matrix style.  The robot's name will be "Orsoc."

[eiliant]

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/

There's two 15BTC bets on Yes

[plasmoske]

More people need to bet NO so I can win more money

[Bitcoinorama]

I am shocked anyone fell for this SCAM!
If you believe that a company entered into manufacturing out of love, goodwill, and in the interest of preventing monopoly I roll my eyes at you.
It is the business of manufacturing miners for profit or manufacturing lies for profit.
And they are not manufacturing miners for profit.

Read up on the subject, there's a difference between engineers and hustlers (the negative kind). Do you understand ORSoC's involvement in this? They build a bleeding edge 28nm ASIC faster that anyone else ever has - not just Bitcoin related, any industry, they receive industry accolade, that's a huge springboard, and is the motivation of engineers worldwide, to do things faster, better and more capable than anyone ever has before. ORSoC then becomes a much larger player in the scheme of things, again not the Bitcoin fraternity, that's a small-time niche in the integrated circuit engineering world. This is just a fun project you are putting wayy too much emphasis on. Like ASICs are merely a period within transitionary Bitcoins history, this ASIC 'project' is purely a 'transistionary' period in ORSoC's history that gains them recognition - hence the purpose in underpromising, because if you over deliver on expectation, not only do customers rate you, so do your piers. Fact.

I prefer a jetty.

G**damn!

*peers

[vesperwillow]

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/

There's two 15BTC bets on Yes

KNC insider betting? Could even be a ruse to get people to jump on the yes side lol

[FeedbackLoop]

Necroing the PSU discussion. I've been looking around and really like the pricing versus the stability on these:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=344

The 850 Watt version is at least as good but it would be interesting to hear about some OC options from KNC and how much extra power one could expect to need in case of a moderate OC.

[qiuness]

looking at thegenesisblock i did some math and things are looking grim..wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Given facts:
- With an initial mining date of October
- Difficulty ~140 mil (now 110 + 30% over the next week)
- 1 Jupiter @ 400 MH/s
- BTC@140$

Results. This scenario with an increase of 77% until march next year will not break even!
Considering that in October we will most likely see 40-50%/11day increase since KNC is shipping, November and December mark the months of newcomers such as (CoinTerra and HashFEst)
The likelihood that the difficulty will taper off until march 2014 is next to 0.

Maybe i`m not seeing all the sides of the cube, but it is not looking good.
With BTC @ 180$ will have profited ~400$

[vesperwillow]

Necroing the PSU discussion. I've been looking around and really like the pricing versus the stability on these:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=344

The 850 Watt version is at least as good but it would be interesting to hear about some OC options from KNC and how much extra power one could expect to need in case of a moderate OC.

I don't understand why folks don't simply get a really nice 1kw psu even if they only plan to use 800. It's a little bit more change, but what's a few dollars to ensure you have growth room, especially compared to the price of the miners?

This isn't a knock on you btw, I just keep seeing the PSU discussion.

looking at thegenesisblock i did some math and things are looking grim..wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Given facts:
- With an initial mining date of October
- Difficulty ~140 mil (now 110 + 30% over the next week)
- 1 Jupiter @ 400 MH/s
- BTC@140$

Results. This scenario with an increase of 77% until march next year will not break even!
Considering that in October we will most likely see 40-50%/11day increase since KNC is shipping, November and December mark the months of newcomers such as (CoinTerra and HashFEst)
The likelihood that the difficulty will taper off until march 2014 is next to 0.

Maybe i`m not seeing all the sides of the cube, but it is not looking good.
With BTC @ 180$ will have profited ~400$

I constantly run math, and while my heart is entwined with the KNC system, I have to say the math isn't showing promise for anyone getting machines after october. At least if you're looking for btc->usd roi. A better bet, using TGB calculations, is Cointerra's 2TH unit. The December $14k pricing and January $6k pricing are pretty much parallel to each other with regard to btc->usd roi.

This is why I'm on edge wondering if KNC will offer more hash power for the 1st quarter for less money. The price drop on the Jupiter was nice, but it's not enough.

The only other idea which comes to mind is leasing shares from the miners, to get 51-75% of your investment cost back to you up front. This would offload the burden.

[FeedbackLoop]

I don't understand why folks don't simply get a really nice 1kw psu even if they only plan to use 800. It's a little bit more change, but what's a few dollars to ensure you have growth room, especially compared to the price of the miners?

This isn't a knock on you btw, I just keep seeing the PSU discussion.

I thought that the 850Watt was already giving lots of margin and you can grow with two excellent 500W PSUs instead of a really nice 1000W and get a stabler and safer setting (if one dies for example) for the same buck.  It is not that clear cut. That said notice the link I posted was a 1000W PSU, which, by the way, seems to have slightly worse stability in the tests than the 850 W version.

I agree with your assessment in profitability and the Cointerra 2TH units. I think the wildcard there is really how much KNC is willing to do for their customers, especially in terms of discounts or upgrade possibilities for second gen. So far Cointerra's statements seem to be slightly less caring about the existing customers than KNC which could tilt your "heart" towards sticking with KNC now and for second gen.

I guess we will begin to see how both companies unravel in that department with what KNC actually ends up delivering in September.    

[Anenome5]

For ideal efficiency you want no more than ~60% load on the PSU. So people are getting a 1,000 watt PSU to achieve that. 850w is adequate but not targeted towards efficiency, on a device that will be operating full bore, 24/7, it makes sense.

Also you could get two 500w PSUs and feed one to each side, but I wonder if you face an additional risk if one board is powered on before the others? Might that cause problems?

[FeedbackLoop]

For ideal efficiency you want no more than ~60% load on the PSU. So people are getting a 1,000 watt PSU to achieve that. 850w is adequate but not targeted towards efficiency, on a device that will be operating full bore, 24/7, it makes sense.

Also you could get two 500w PSUs and feed one to each side, but I wonder if you face an additional risk if one board is powered on before the others? Might that cause problems?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3124339#msg3124339

[vesperwillow]

For ideal efficiency you want no more than ~60% load on the PSU. So people are getting a 1,000 watt PSU to achieve that. 850w is adequate but not targeted towards efficiency, on a device that will be operating full bore, 24/7, it makes sense.

Also you could get two 500w PSUs and feed one to each side, but I wonder if you face an additional risk if one board is powered on before the others? Might that cause problems?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3124339#msg3124339

Thank you for beating me to that.. everytime I see someone post the "half load efficiency" stuff it makes my eyes twitch

[btc_uzr]

looking at thegenesisblock i did some math and things are looking grim..wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Given facts:
- With an initial mining date of October
- Difficulty ~140 mil (now 110 + 30% over the next week)
- 1 Jupiter @ 400 MH/s
- BTC@140$

Results. This scenario with an increase of 77% until march next year will not break even!
Considering that in October we will most likely see 40-50%/11day increase since KNC is shipping, November and December mark the months of newcomers such as (CoinTerra and HashFEst)
The likelihood that the difficulty will taper off until march 2014 is next to 0.

Maybe i`m not seeing all the sides of the cube, but it is not looking good.
With BTC @ 180$ will have profited ~400$

You should modify your calculations to match reality.

Let's say 26th is day1 [1] and diff is 140mil. KnC might deliver until 15th of October ~2-2.5PH [2], then assume that in this time frame blocks pass by fast until last KNC device is online (17th of October) and diff is finally adjusted to the according level of hashrate. So a possible total of upto 3,5PH/s results in diff of ~500M, maybe at October 20th in place. Then it will slab and stuck at this level I guess.

Maybe bitfury increases it a little further until end of October,  but not dramatically. Then I expect that it remains at this level it reaches at the end of October (maybe +10%) until KNC starts November delivery. Then next jump seems to be in December when vmc or others start delivery through out January and February [3]. Then KNC next generation appears in March [4].


[1] https://www.cloudhashing.com/frequently-asked-questions
  Cloudhashing ordered from KNC and their FAQ states "A2: We expect mining for September contracts to start by 26th September 2013 (...)"

[2] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283820.msg3125451#msg3125451

[3] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283820

[4] https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-24
 "We will then release our new generation of devices, which will begin shipping in March 2014"

*edit:
-have forgotten November delivery from KNC, added some other thoughts as well
-added new srcs