Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[rograz]

A better/smaller process node is equal to zero if the performance is worse than a bigger process node. There is no advantage there. Why would I choose a 20nm Neptune that has ~0.7W/GH (just an assumption) when I can choose the 28nm SP30 chip that has 0.5W/GH at system level?

The Neptune can probably beat 0.5 very easily unless there's something wrong with the design/process, it's all about how much performance you have to sacrifice to reach a particular power target and if it makes sense at the time. Just look at the span on the bitmain 55nm chips, they can get anywhere from 1W/GH (probably a bit lower than that too) to 2,5W/GH depending on how high it makes sense to clock them and what voltage you need.

All things being equal 20nm will outperform 28nm for density/efficiency unless there are issues with the process/design, not saying a optimal 28nm design couldn't outperform a 20nm product, however as long as nothing is broken 20nm "KNC" will be better than 28nm KNC if you get what I mean so it ends up being better for them to rush 20nm.

The main reason that 20nm is no better than 28nm is the cost of the NRE, you get no performance/$ benefit and cant increase performance at a certain price point, hence why most of the industry is sitting back waiting.
KNC however took the easy route and had someone else fund their little enterprise so for them it made sense. The cost/transistor for 20nm will most likely drop below 28nm in 6-12months time and then KNC will have an advantage over the competitors who still are stuck on 28nm as long as they can match them on efficiency/density.

[1714028921]

1714028921

[jimmothy]

All things being equal 20nm will outperform 28nm for density/efficiency unless there are issues with the process/design, not saying a optimal 28nm design couldn't outperform a 20nm product, however as long as nothing is broken 20nm "KNC" will be better than 28nm KNC if you get what I mean so it ends up being better for them to rush 20nm.

What makes you think there are no issues with the design?

Why could knc only achieve 1w/gh on 28nm where as bitfury could achieve 0.8w/gh on 55nm?

[RoadStress]

A better/smaller process node is equal to zero if the performance is worse than a bigger process node. There is no advantage there. Why would I choose a 20nm Neptune that has ~0.7W/GH (just an assumption) when I can choose the 28nm SP30 chip that has 0.5W/GH at system level?

The Neptune can probably beat 0.5 very easily unless there's something wrong with the design/process, it's all about how much performance you have to sacrifice to reach a particular power target and if it makes sense at the time. Just look at the span on the bitmain 55nm chips, they can get anywhere from 1W/GH (probably a bit lower than that too) to 2,5W/GH depending on how high it makes sense to clock them and what voltage you need.

All things being equal 20nm will outperform 28nm for density/efficiency unless there are issues with the process/design, not saying a optimal 28nm design couldn't outperform a 20nm product, however as long as nothing is broken 20nm "KNC" will be better than 28nm KNC if you get what I mean so it ends up being better for them to rush 20nm.

The main reason that 20nm is no better than 28nm is the cost of the NRE, you get no performance/$ benefit and cant increase performance at a certain price point, hence why most of the industry is sitting back waiting.
KNC however took the easy route and had someone else fund their little enterprise so for them it made sense. The cost/transistor for 20nm will most likely drop below 28nm in 6-12months time and then KNC will have an advantage over the competitors who still are stuck on 28nm as long as they can match them on efficiency/density.

You are so clueless. SP10's chip that is on 40nm is more power efficient than Jupiter's chip that is on 28nm by far. (0.85W/Gh vs 1.1-1.2W/Gh at system level) SP30 will be at 0.5W/GH at system level which is on par with your prediction which will turn out false. I feel that Neptune will be 0.7W/GH which is worse than SP30. So why pay the expensive 20nm mask if you can get the same performance from a 28nm chip? What's the advantage?

[SgtMoth]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

A few people received a pile of trash. Others received unassembled yet working miners once assembled. The luckiest received (poorly) assembled miners and extra ASIC boards. Many needed beagle/controller board flashing, heatsink repositioning, fan replacement, etc.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think most people got them working to some extent and some have them working near perfectly and have bonus hash from the extra boards.

I actually think much of the rage was because of the poor quality of the product assembly and the shameful packaging of the shipments. And everyone who received these abortions had to work way too hard to get them running. But ultimately most people got near the hash that they (over)paid for.


edit... I misread your post and gave a completely unrelated answer. Sorry!

I have 4-6 boards that need repair, I havent been able to find anyone.  Im still waiting on beaglebones...I have 1.5th?? sitting(in knc)

[xstr8guy]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

A few people received a pile of trash. Others received unassembled yet working miners once assembled. The luckiest received (poorly) assembled miners and extra ASIC boards. Many needed beagle/controller board flashing, heatsink repositioning, fan replacement, etc.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think most people got them working to some extent and some have them working near perfectly and have bonus hash from the extra boards.

I actually think much of the rage was because of the poor quality of the product assembly and the shameful packaging of the shipments. And everyone who received these abortions had to work way too hard to get them running. But ultimately most people got near the hash that they (over)paid for.


edit... I misread your post and gave a completely unrelated answer. Sorry!

I have 4-6 boards that need repair, I havent been able to find anyone.  Im still waiting on beaglebones...I have 1.5th?? sitting(in knc)

Are these extra boards or did you get the unassembled kit? I ask this because if you have extra boards, you can't RMA extra boards to KNC unless you ship everything(!) back. So you're just stuck with broken boards. If you just received the single kit, then you should RMA the broken boards since you have nothing to lose.

[s1gs3gv]

So why pay the expensive 20nm mask if you can get the same performance from a 28nm chip? What's the advantage?

You can get better performance from the 20nm chip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_GPUs#Volcanic_Islands_.28Rx_200.29_Series  (for example)

[RoadStress]

So why pay the expensive 20nm mask if you can get the same performance from a 28nm chip? What's the advantage?

You can get better performance from the 20nm chip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_GPUs#Volcanic_Islands_.28Rx_200.29_Series  (for example)

You lack neurons. Really! I just told you that a 40nm chip has better performance than KnC's 28nm chip. This is real!

A 28nm chip will have better performance than KnC's 20nm chip. Are you that retarded to not get it?

[SgtMoth]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

A few people received a pile of trash. Others received unassembled yet working miners once assembled. The luckiest received (poorly) assembled miners and extra ASIC boards. Many needed beagle/controller board flashing, heatsink repositioning, fan replacement, etc.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think most people got them working to some extent and some have them working near perfectly and have bonus hash from the extra boards.

I actually think much of the rage was because of the poor quality of the product assembly and the shameful packaging of the shipments. And everyone who received these abortions had to work way too hard to get them running. But ultimately most people got near the hash that they (over)paid for.


edit... I misread your post and gave a completely unrelated answer. Sorry!

I have 4-6 boards that need repair, I havent been able to find anyone.  Im still waiting on beaglebones...I have 1.5th?? sitting(in knc)

Are these extra boards or did you get the unassembled kit? I ask this because if you have extra boards, you can't RMA extra boards to KNC unless you ship everything(!) back. So you're just stuck with broken boards. If you just received the single kit, then you should RMA the broken boards since you have nothing to lose.

these are working boards, just low, low hashing boards...too many pieces got ripped off these boards.(frankenshippment)  ya, cant send these back...getting 4.2 so far

[s1gs3gv]

You lack neurons. Really! I just told you that a 40nm chip has better performance than KnC's 28nm chip. This is real!

A 28nm chip will have better performance than KnC's 20nm chip. Are you that retarded to not get it?

You're funny roadstress

[faetos]

Are you math challenged? Neptune is 2.5$/GH while SP30 is 0.88$/GH.

So you *will* agree to match Neptune $/GH for $/GH ? If Neptune comes in at $.50/GH you'll offer the SP30 at $.50/GH or less for September delivery with a 100% refund guarantee ?

I miss Bitcoinorama! At least he made sense.

He's been bound and ball-gagged. If he can at least add up, he should post.

step aside, butch

bring out the gimp

[s1gs3gv]

Are you math challenged? Neptune is 2.5$/GH while SP30 is 0.88$/GH.

So you *will* agree to match Neptune $/GH for $/GH ? If Neptune comes in at $.50/GH you'll offer the SP30 at $.50/GH or less for September delivery with a 100% refund guarantee ?

I miss Bitcoinorama! At least he made sense.

He's been bound and ball-gagged. If he can at least add up, he should post.

step aside, butch

bring out the gimp

Behave yourselves girls !

[SgtMoth]

Repaired or Not...It WILL be hashing next week!!!!

[Searing]

Repaired or Not...It WILL be hashing next week!!!!

ok this is just me looking at your board above... not my buddy who 'maybe' could fix it (yeah with the resources of NASA likely! heh)

(er sorry 'too soon')

anyway for my own info is/was anything in particular broken off/re-soldered replaced or whatever and if so a close up and
could you circle it...if there is anything particular we can see in the pic?

or is it cosmetically ok ..just plain won't hash 'well'?

but to my untrained eye I see zip (of course I know zip about electronics that is my buddies bailiwick)

Searing

edit: er duh I assume it is supposed to have those yellow block items surrounding the main chip (what exactly is on them..do they all say the same thing?) and again from what you can tell were they just 'mounted' on a kinda solder pad? I think I see?

and of course lastly if my 'guess is correct' do you have those items and can you show us a back side to them to see how they are attached (close up)

anyway he does not mine...so if he was to suggest how it is re-attached it would be from an electronics/TV background and again he is one of 3 to the state 'certified' to repair the robot made micro circuit LCD TV's now a days

anyway I'm sure others on here have better advice ..but again go to your local univ electronics dept (EE or EET) beer and pizza go a long way..even check the tech univ or local guys..

again hopefully others on here are more helpful

Searing

[faetos]

Repaired or Not...It WILL be hashing next week!!!!

That is so crappy to send this kind of used crap to customers that paid 10-13Gs for equipment. That's why I hate these guys more than anything.

[rograz]

What makes you think there are no issues with the design?

I'm not saying there couldn't be be issues with KNCs 20nm design, the whole argument has been why it made sense for KNC to jump to 20nm rather than making a new fully custom 28nm design when there was no initial cost/real performance/$ gains from doing so.

Why could knc only achieve 1w/gh on 28nm where as bitfury could achieve 0.8w/gh on 55nm?

It has been speculated (confirmed?) that the Jupiter design is a hardcopy and not a full custom design (hence their fast design/delivery time and worse performance/effiency). Also the Jupiter chips are more than capable to get below 1W/GH (you can get down to about 0,7-0,8W/GH at 400-450GH) but why would you sacrifice the performance for efficiency when running them at higher speed but worse efficiency has been more profitable?

To properly compare 2 different chips you have to look at the given performance at a certain amount of chip area. Take 100mm2 of total chip area for 2 design then have a specific performance point and compare the best efficiency at that performance point, that's the only way you will get real comparison on how 2 different designs stack up to each other in terms of efficiency. Otherwise you can easily push the metrics in whatever direction you want.

So let's take a look at Bitmaintech and their S1s, they sold them at 180GH@2W/GH (a much worse chip in your world) and is clearly inferior to Bitfury by your logic. I could however take a S1 Antminer and probably get it below 0,8W/GH but you would only get around 70-80GH out of it. But by your logic I have just taken this inferior horrible inefficient chip and turned into something that is better/equal to Bitfury. Since Bitmain is on 55nm as well it would be really easy however to compare who has the lowest manufacturing cost to produce those results, so who out of Bitfury and Bitmain uses the least amount of die area (and hence lowest manufacturing costs) to produce say 100GH@0,8W/GH? Not the faintest idea, something for you to figure out I guess!

What my whole point is that the same chip can be used for a usually quite large range of performance targets depending on how you tune them.

The rule is however that as long as the designs are in the same ballpark for optimization it will take substantially more die area for a chip on a larger node to match the same performance/watt as a chip on a smaller node. Hence why saying that Bitfury 55nm is clearly better than the KNC jupiter is not as clear cut as you might think.

Unless your are selling into a specific market where performance/watt is EVERYTHING selling chips at their "best" efficiency specs doesn't make sense since the performance tradeoff to get there is to substantial. People pay for performance and the scaling of the chips will mean that as a manufacturer you are looking selling them at a performance point that makes sense and generates the most profit.

[xstr8guy]

Repaired or Not...It WILL be hashing next week!!!!

At a quick glance... it's missing 3 VRMs! Wtf?!

[mwarrior]

Repaired or Not...It WILL be hashing next week!!!!

The Asic fairy may well deliver a special package to  you this week ;-) 

[Zelek Uther]

Firstly, what happened to Plan B and CD batch Neptune customers getting cloud hashing in "early June"?

Secondly, I don't know why I haven't done this before, but I went to the KnC site to get the measurements for Neptune so I could plan where I'm going to put it.  600 x 400 x 300 according to the Neptune Third Batch page here: https://www.kncminer.com/products/neptune-third-batch

300 mm high! 1 RU = 44.45 mm, so 300 / 44.45 = 6.7 RU!

Damn, that's a frikken huge box!

For comparison, Jupiter is 500 x 400 x 200.
200 / 44.45 = 4.5 RU, which is pretty big already.

Consider that an SP10 is 1.25 RU, you could stack 5 SP10s on top of each other (6.25 RU) and still not be the same height as a Neptune.

[Biffa]

SP10's chip that is on 40nm is more power efficient than Jupiter's chip that is on 28nm by far. (0.85W/Gh vs 1.1-1.2W/Gh at system level) SP30 will be at 0.5W/GH at system level which is on par with your prediction which will turn out false. I feel that Neptune will be 0.7W/GH which is worse than SP30. So why pay the expensive 20nm mask if you can get the same performance from a 28nm chip? What's the advantage?

I think to be fair at system level a Jupiter is a lot less than 1.1-1.2W/Gh

My sole surviving one sits at 840Gh at 800W at system level and thats obviously overclocked.

[s1gs3gv]

At a quick glance... it's missing 3 VRMs! Wtf?!

What is the full part number on those Ericsson VRMs ?

Is it a BMR464 as shown here: https://github.com/KnCMiner/jupiter-hw-docs/blob/master/Ericsson_BMR464_Technical_Specification.pdf

Looks a lot like: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ericsson-Power-Modules/BMR4642002-001/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsc0tfZmXiUnRXPWXedK30lvt%2fDJN7MGhU%3d