Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[fillippone]

Hello WO!
Observing PlanB back from his month long holidays and posting good bullish charts:

https://twitter.com/100trillionusd/status/1165350490198237184?s=21

#bitcoin halving chart update: 9 months to go!

2012 halving: t-9 BTC $5 -> t=0 $12
2016 halving: t-9 BTC $314 -> t=0 $627
2020 halving: t-9 BTC $10,100 -> t=0 $...

[HairyMaclairy]

3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.

Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.  

Who is complaining about an outcome? Its a hypothetical, not an irl experience. The "tax man is an sob" is a statement of fact, not a complaint.  

I think you are misunderstanding something Im saying also, bc as far as not liking the risk and structuring the income as trading income so you can deduct losses, well you can deduct all capital losses whether you declare yourself an investor or a trader. Thats what ive been talking about all along. Status declaration does not give or take away this ability, its built in for everyone. What neither a trader or investor can do is use a capital loss to get a rebate on past taxes paid. This imo is unfair to people who might find themselves in this situation. These could also be people who sold a house, land, or business at a large loss but had large cap gains they paid taxes on the year before. It applies to all capital losses as far as I know unless you have new info for me.

Dude if you have an income loss you can’t get a rebate on past income tax paid either.  That’s just the way the world works. It’s not inherently unfair. 

[Lambie Slayer]

3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.

Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.  

Who is complaining about an outcome? Its a hypothetical, not an irl experience. The "tax man is an sob" is a statement of fact, not a complaint.  

I think you are misunderstanding something Im saying also, bc as far as not liking the risk and structuring the income as trading income so you can deduct losses, well you can deduct all capital losses whether you declare yourself an investor or a trader. Thats what ive been talking about all along. Status declaration does not give or take away this ability, its built in for everyone. What neither a trader or investor can do is use a capital loss to get a rebate on past taxes paid. This imo is unfair to people who might find themselves in this situation. These could also be people who sold a house, land, or business at a large loss but had large cap gains they paid taxes on the year before. It applies to all capital losses as far as I know unless you have new info for me.

Dude if you have an income loss you can’t get a rebate on past income tax paid either.  That’s just the way the world works. It’s not inherently unfair. 

Sorry HM, as much as I like you and your charts an fractals, I have to point out you are completely wrong here. You can indeed get a refund or rebate on past income tax paid. That is how it works and it is blatantly unfair in my judgement. The IRS calls it a "loss carryback".



https://www.thebalancesmb.com/business-losses-to-offset-income-397687

"Determining Net Operating Loss
Your total income and losses from all business and personal sources are collected on your personal tax return. A net operating loss can be calculated, using specific IRS methods. If you have a net operating loss, you may be able to get a refund on your personal tax return.

Net operating loss is calculated by using Adjusted Gross Income on line 37 of Form 1040 and subtracting standard or itemized deductions, but not subtracting personal exemptions. More details on net operating loss are available in IRS Publication 536.

Net operating loss is calculated on Schedule A of IRS Form 1045 (PDF). The title of this form includes the term "Tentative Refund." This refund is a requirement that you move the loss to a previous tax year in which you had a profit. It is called a "loss carryback" (described below)."

"Deducting Losses in Past or Future Years
If you have business losses that are not deductible in the year when you have the loss, you may be required to or choose to deduct these losses in past or future years. It is called a tax loss carryback or loss carry forward, and again, it's something you must get a tax professional to help you with."

[HairyMaclairy]

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.

[Lambie Slayer]

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.

Your welcome my very gracious friend.  I learned more than I wanted about the insanely complex tax code as an entrepreneur.

[El duderino_]

...
The consolidation might take a bit longer ...

Interesting find, mindrust. But ATH before halving is impossible, isn't it? So I would extend everything on the time axis.

Wow in BTC that word......

[serveria.com]

Get ready for the Sunday pump gentlemen 

[ivomm]

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

How many do you need to be a multi-billionnaire?  What's the entry level to "multi-"?  My tentative guess is minimum would be 30 BTC.  Less than 30 BTC would not be enough, unless exaggeration is involved.

2 is multi JJG, I.e more than 1.

Added: must be a multiple of 1 I believe. I did a google to be sure and was surprised to find ambiguous answers abound.

Well, i kind of suspected that the concept of multi- was ambiguous, and that is why I was a bit more conservative in my own accepted definition, which requires three....  


Right now, with current BTC prices floating around $10k, you would be floating around BTC millionnaire status with 100 BTC.  However, I would argue that you need  300 BTC, at this particular price range to proclaim multi-milliionnaire status (in terms of your BTC holdings), without engaging in exaggeration.

I understand that guys are going to differ in this matter, and I personally give more credibility to more conservative assertions.

I've always thought that a multimillionaire is a person that has a net worth more than 2 million units of currency, i.e. $2.1 mil. There is a website dedicated to such questions: https://multimillionaire.askdefine.com/.
By BTC millionaire, JJG you mean actually a USD millionaire  

Speaking of this price $10K, I think it is a bit unfortunate that average Joes see it as a high price and they don't want to buy beyond it. Even my father, who supports me in everything, says to me: Who will buy above 10K? It is too expensive. I tell him and everyone else that the unit is of no importance. What if the current Bitcoin was called a mini Bitcoin and 100 mini Bitcoins one Bitcoin? The price would be $1 mil! But the market cap would be the same. The current market cap is still very low for a world known asset. And it has the potential to reach and surpass gold's cap. It is a bit unfortunate that average Joes don't get the concept and see this price as too high. I guess this is one of the reasons the number of drops under 10K is so high in the last months. Of course with time the scarcity will push the trades beyond such psychological barriers (10K, 50K, 100K).  It would be very exciting to know what will be the price in 5 years, after 2 halvings!  If the first halving bull run doesn't get us above 50K, then the next surely will get us above 100K. The question is who will wait and suffer all the drama until then  

[SuperTA]

Good morning everyone!

Gold/Btc (Gold/XBT) Chart

Bitcoin is outperforming Gold.
 https://twitter.com/Bitcoin/status/1165380248591974400

[SuperTA]

Donald Trump on Twitter:





Returns during the Trump presidency




John Carvalho

[El duderino_]

You won't change Bitcoin. But Bitcoin will change you.
The same goes for altcoins, just not in a good way.

https://twitter.com/jimmysong/status/1165482967130693632?s=21

[HairyMaclairy]

UK court orders Coinbase to freeze 80BTC taken by spear phisher

https://www.cdr-news.com/categories/litigation/10003-high-court-tackles-bitcoin-property-first

[Cryptotourist]

~ That is how it works and it is blatantly unfair in my judgement. The IRS calls it a "loss carryback".

Why is lc unfair?
Think seasonal business.
Only curious.

#haiku

[Lambie Slayer]

~ That is how it works and it is blatantly unfair in my judgement. The IRS calls it a "loss carryback".

Why is lc unfair?
Think seasonal business.
Only curious.

#haiku

I think you might misunderstand what Im saying is unfair.

I think being able to implement an income tax loss carryback for a business or personal return is great, but what imo is unfair is small investors/hodlers cant carryback capital losses in the same manner.

This rule is to make life easy for elites and big businesses imo. Small hodlers should have the same privilege.

I realize its hard to see what Im saying is unfair unless you look in the context of the entire conversation. Hope that clears it up.

[HairyMaclairy]

Today’s candle is tiny.

So normally that ends in a PAMP.  

Fingers crossed.  

[btcbeliever]

Today’s candle is tiny.

So normally that ends in a PAMP.  

Fingers crossed.  

Did you mispell pump, or are you referring to Pathogen-associated molecular pattern?

[Febo]

Returns during the Trump presidency

So you are saying Trump is reason why Bitcoin gained 20 times in last 3.5 years?   

[ivomm]

Nice lil Sunday pump. I bet this is the last time we've seen....  Nope, I won't say it. I don't want to jinx it. 

[SuperTA]

This is the longterm weekly chart for altcoins/btc dominance.

I saw too many charts where they call bitcoin dominance to fall. So i made this chart which is more optimistic for bitcoin. Ok, sure, it doesn't mean that altcoin dominance will fall straight down to 20% but if it drops bellow this minor trendline then bitcoin can go to 80% dominance.

[Hueristic]

Well, i kind of suspected that the concept of multi- was ambiguous, and that is why I was a bit more conservative in my own accepted definition, which requires three....  


Right now, with current BTC prices floating around $10k, you would be floating around BTC millionnaire status with 100 BTC.  However, I would argue that you need  300 BTC, at this particular price range to proclaim multi-milliionnaire status (in terms of your BTC holdings), without engaging in exaggeration.

I understand that guys are going to differ in this matter, and I personally give more credibility to more conservative assertions.

More like 400 with these tariffs.

I'm thinking Multi must be in whole units as the general population when the term was coined were not fluent in fractions of whole numbers. Another thing I have noted is that any language that needs(critically) a term with a definition of or similar to "ambiguous" is a very poor form of communication. Intentional obfuscation is a twisted form of security and one lawyers need a even more obscure language to inflict upon us.