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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2029998 times)
jedimstr
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March 04, 2015, 08:50:40 PM
 #12281

and two... so while a bunch of you guys jumped off and my shares have gone up, I picked a very good day to rent some hash power.

I think, the old girl has some spunk in her left...

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March 04, 2015, 09:26:37 PM
 #12282

and two... so while a bunch of you guys jumped off and my shares have gone up, I picked a very good day to rent some hash power.

I think, the old girl has some spunk in her left...


+1 Smiley The pool is compensating as designed, fewer blocks, higher payout...

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March 04, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
 #12283

Can't see why one would bail: Luck is luck, if the pool has some time without blocks there will be time with blocks. This is the same for Slush, Eclipse, Eligius, BTC50, and whatever other pool you decide to use. It's basic statistics, you will not get a better deal anywhere else because there *is* no better deal.

There are however worse deals :-)

P2Pool is distributed, with no central place that a govt can choke. That's why I like it and why I'll stick with it as is.

Mine on!



LXC: DFfLxDJfbqXyVNsTeWuARGPfQ2YKRE6y1a
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yslyung
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March 04, 2015, 09:47:56 PM
 #12284

come join my pool if you're in asia http://captminerp2pool.ddns.net:9332/static/ ... go go go back to the glory days while we hunt for a fix

it's growing to 2PH/s
IYFTech
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March 04, 2015, 10:03:49 PM
 #12285

This demonstrates the scalability problem perfectly, hash rate drops & blocks are found, hash rate rises & blocks go scarce again. The higher the network hash rate gets, the worse the problem becomes apparent. This is one of the reasons why p2pool will never grow beyond a certain size until the scalability issue is fixed. It's a crying shame & I still miss it, but as others have said, it's simply pointless throwing more hash at p2pool until a fix is found that cures the scalability & variance issues.

I hope it happens soon  Wink

-- Smiley  Thank you for smoking  Smiley --  If you paid VAT to dogie for items you should read this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1018906.0
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March 04, 2015, 10:10:11 PM
 #12286

and two... so while a bunch of you guys jumped off and my shares have gone up, I picked a very good day to rent some hash power.

I think, the old girl has some spunk in her left...


+1 Smiley The pool is compensating as designed, fewer blocks, higher payout...
That's PPLNS (and Prop) that causes that Tongue

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with Stratum, the best protocol to mine Bitcoins with ASIC hardware
jonnybravo0311
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March 04, 2015, 11:00:23 PM
 #12287

Oh p2pool is a nasty mistress... Rent a bunch of hash and no blocks for 8 days... All shares fall off the chain... Find 2 blocks.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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March 05, 2015, 12:18:26 AM
 #12288

I remember saying something about luck doesn't exist. But maybe it came out HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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March 05, 2015, 01:02:28 AM
 #12289

Oh p2pool is a nasty mistress... Rent a bunch of hash and no blocks for 8 days... All shares fall off the chain... Find 2 blocks.

Bummer buddy, I've had in the past some streaks where my payout would be 2x of what was expected, only to find the next block just as it dropped to 0.5x, it does work both ways though Smiley

yslyung
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March 05, 2015, 01:06:23 AM
 #12290

more hashes showing up, looking fwd to good streaks again.
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March 05, 2015, 03:05:29 AM
 #12291

This demonstrates the scalability problem perfectly, hash rate drops & blocks are found, hash rate rises & blocks go scarce again. The higher the network hash rate gets, the worse the problem becomes apparent. This is one of the reasons why p2pool will never grow beyond a certain size until the scalability issue is fixed. It's a crying shame & I still miss it, but as others have said, it's simply pointless throwing more hash at p2pool until a fix is found that cures the scalability & variance issues.

I hope it happens soon  Wink

Why does that happen? Why with higher hash rate are blocks more scarce? Is that actually what is happening or does it just seem that way?  How would we fix such an issue?
kano
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March 05, 2015, 04:51:26 AM
 #12292

This demonstrates the scalability problem perfectly, hash rate drops & blocks are found, hash rate rises & blocks go scarce again. The higher the network hash rate gets, the worse the problem becomes apparent. This is one of the reasons why p2pool will never grow beyond a certain size until the scalability issue is fixed. It's a crying shame & I still miss it, but as others have said, it's simply pointless throwing more hash at p2pool until a fix is found that cures the scalability & variance issues.

I hope it happens soon  Wink

Why does that happen? Why with higher hash rate are blocks more scarce? Is that actually what is happening or does it just seem that way?  How would we fix such an issue?
It's called Cognitive Distortion

Finding actual blocks are sent out by everyone who finds them even if p2pool rejects them.
So from a solo mining POV the blocks get sent out anyway.

The issues here are related to variance and performance for the share-chain and the bias it gives to larger miners and the problems with mining as a smaller miner.

Edit: though I will add ... defining the luck based on share-chain shares/hash rate makes it better than it really is since the pool by design loses almost 10% of them rather than like a typical pool that loses 1/20 to 1/50 of that (most 0.2% to 0.5%)

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with Stratum, the best protocol to mine Bitcoins with ASIC hardware
Songminer
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March 06, 2015, 04:23:31 PM
 #12293

Just my mind dump:

In my mind, p2pool needs to see a block every two - three days to stay alive...  Beyond three days work is completely discarded.

I'm a noob, but correct me if I'm wrong.   There's a finite number of blocks discovered, and if P2Pool doesn't have the hash they will be solved by other pools... so "luck" is disproportionately lost as the hash goes down. 

Slush is running at 10-11PH, and yesterday with over 200% luck it found 8 blocks.  100% means 4 blocks a day at 10 PH/s.

so if we're running at 2.5PH/s at 100% luck.. 1 per day might be expected by may not be realistic as larger pools could steal them away before they are solved, no?

Watching rented hash or home grown hash fall off the share list after 3 days is a deal killer.   P2Pool will not continue to retain hash if multiple 4 & 5 day intervals occur on a regular basis.

Seems like P2Pool needs 2-3PH/s minimum  to be viable with the current software state and difficulty.

When I log in and see 1-1.5PH/s I think the 7 day delays are going to continue popping up.

Can someone tell me if my thinking is screwed up?

IYFTech
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March 06, 2015, 04:58:02 PM
 #12294


It's called Cognitive Distortion


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Great description  Wink

-- Smiley  Thank you for smoking  Smiley --  If you paid VAT to dogie for items you should read this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1018906.0
yslyung
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March 09, 2015, 08:33:57 AM
 #12295

2 in a row, good luck streak is back ?

if you think it's coming back then do join my pool *click on sig below*
PatMan
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March 10, 2015, 10:17:30 AM
 #12296

Just translating p2pool as it exists into C, C++, C#, Objective C, Swift, Java, Perl, Lisp, whatever, is not going to suddenly bring the mining masses here.  I know a number of us have listed out the problems previously, and a number of us have had discussions on potential solutions to those problems; however, nobody has been able to successfully crack the nut.  Maybe the problem is that we're all trying to solve p2pool's problems while keeping ourselves in the context of the existing structure.  Let's try another approach.  Forget p2pool even exists.

We as a community want a new pool to be created.  Here is a list of high-level bullet points we would want to have in our new pool:

  • Decentralized
  • Easy to use
  • Performant
  • Scalable
  • Inclusive

Please feel free to add to these points and/or provide more details/solutions.

This is exactly what I'm suggesting JB - a complete re-write. But in order to achieve this I think we should do the donation bounty option from within the current p2pool structure, as it's (I think) an excellent way of raising awareness in the community as well as raising funds, while the amount of work involved in making the changes are minimal & simple.

Nothing happening with this then I presume?  Sad

Stagnation is a killer.

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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March 10, 2015, 12:55:27 PM
 #12297

2 in a row, good luck streak is back ?

if you think it's coming back then do join my pool *click on sig below*

Looks like 3 blocks ....wish that had happened when I had rented rigs a couple weeks ago.
windpath
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March 10, 2015, 01:29:08 PM
 #12298

Just translating p2pool as it exists into C, C++, C#, Objective C, Swift, Java, Perl, Lisp, whatever, is not going to suddenly bring the mining masses here.  I know a number of us have listed out the problems previously, and a number of us have had discussions on potential solutions to those problems; however, nobody has been able to successfully crack the nut.  Maybe the problem is that we're all trying to solve p2pool's problems while keeping ourselves in the context of the existing structure.  Let's try another approach.  Forget p2pool even exists.

We as a community want a new pool to be created.  Here is a list of high-level bullet points we would want to have in our new pool:

  • Decentralized
  • Easy to use
  • Performant
  • Scalable
  • Inclusive

Please feel free to add to these points and/or provide more details/solutions.

This is exactly what I'm suggesting JB - a complete re-write. But in order to achieve this I think we should do the donation bounty option from within the current p2pool structure, as it's (I think) an excellent way of raising awareness in the community as well as raising funds, while the amount of work involved in making the changes are minimal & simple.

Nothing happening with this then I presume?  Sad

Stagnation is a killer.

I've been continuing to noodle on it.

Was at the MIT BTC expo this past weekend and was able to bring up the issues with some pretty smart folks.

The consensus seemed to lean toward addressing the payment threshold and scheme as the key issue, the rest can be addressed by a rewrite in a language like C++.

The challenge is to come up with a method to accumulate payouts for smaller miners within the pool, in a decentralized and trust-less way, so that they can be paid out at some threshold above what is considered dust.

The often proposed solution was to centralize the dust payments and payout from a trusted party. This is essentially what Nasty Pool has done, and its a great service for smaller miners, however the fact that it requires trust would take away a lot of what P2Pool has to offer, and I don't consider it a long term solution.

I'm in touch with a couple of the folks I met, including a dev who has the chops to pull it off (with an attractive bounty), however he is just as stuck as we are until we can come up with a solution for accumulating smaller payouts in a trust-less way...




jonnybravo0311
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March 10, 2015, 01:58:02 PM
 #12299

I don't know that concentrating on how to accumulate and distribute the smaller "dust" payouts is the most critical item to address.  I agree it's an issue that would arise; however, it's only going to rear it's head once the variance problem is solved.

Right now, the minimum share value in p2pool is higher than the dust threshold.  There's even code in p2pool as it is currently written to ensure you get more than a dust payout:

Code:
if expected_payout_per_block < self.node.net.PARENT.DUST_THRESHOLD:
    desired_share_target = min(desired_share_target,
        bitcoin_data.average_attempts_to_target((bitcoin_data.target_to_average_attempts(self.node.bitcoind_work.value['bits'].target)*self.node.net.SPREAD)*self.node.net.PARENT.DUST_THRESHOLD/block_subsidy)
                    )

It's certainly an interesting paradox.  Effectively we are saying the share difficulty must be lowered so that smaller miners do not feel the effects of p2pool's inherent variance.  However, the code also has to say that if you're going to receive a dust payout, increase your share difficulty so you don't - which means you're right back at the high share difficulty causing the variance for the small miners.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
windpath
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March 10, 2015, 02:01:37 PM
 #12300

I don't know that concentrating on how to accumulate and distribute the smaller "dust" payouts is the most critical item to address.  I agree it's an issue that would arise; however, it's only going to rear it's head once the variance problem is solved.

Right now, the minimum share value in p2pool is higher than the dust threshold.  There's even code in p2pool as it is currently written to ensure you get more than a dust payout:

Code:
if expected_payout_per_block < self.node.net.PARENT.DUST_THRESHOLD:
    desired_share_target = min(desired_share_target,
        bitcoin_data.average_attempts_to_target((bitcoin_data.target_to_average_attempts(self.node.bitcoind_work.value['bits'].target)*self.node.net.SPREAD)*self.node.net.PARENT.DUST_THRESHOLD/block_subsidy)
                    )

It's certainly an interesting paradox.  Effectively we are saying the share difficulty must be lowered so that smaller miners do not feel the effects of p2pool's inherent variance.  However, the code also has to say that if you're going to receive a dust payout, increase your share difficulty so you don't - which means you're right back at the high share difficulty causing the variance for the small miners.

Agreed, but say in a re-write you could increase efficiency 10x, and 10x the # of shares in the chain (that may be optimistic), now you have a chain that can support many more smaller miners, but need a method to address the dust payouts...

Edit: The only way I know to fix the variance issue is to grow global p2pool hashrate.

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