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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2029000 times)
windpath
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January 09, 2015, 04:25:05 AM
 #11521

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..



Agreed, show me the developer, and I'll show him/her a paycheck...

Edit:
Requirements:
  • Core code re-written in C++ (preferably without a hard fork on the share chain)
  • Payouts for smaller miners solved (I've had an idea that involves trusting the node your mining on, but you kind of have to do that anyway...)

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nreal
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January 09, 2015, 04:54:43 AM
 #11522

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..



Agreed, show me the developer, and I'll show him/her a paycheck...

Edit:
Requirements:
  • Core code re-written in C++ (preferably without a hard fork on the share chain)
  • Payouts for smaller miners solved (I've had an idea that involves trusting the node your mining on, but you kind of have to do that anyway...)

Doesnt Nastys solution for Payouts for smaller miners work? Should nodes donate to nasty some amount to get it on every node? Theres much needed, but if we are donating to a retired developer or not donating at all...
windpath
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January 09, 2015, 05:32:01 AM
 #11523

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..



Agreed, show me the developer, and I'll show him/her a paycheck...

Edit:
Requirements:
  • Core code re-written in C++ (preferably without a hard fork on the share chain)
  • Payouts for smaller miners solved (I've had an idea that involves trusting the node your mining on, but you kind of have to do that anyway...)

Doesnt Nastys solution for Payouts for smaller miners work? Should nodes donate to nasty some amount to get it on every node? Theres much needed, but if we are donating to a retired developer or not donating at all...

OGNasty's implementation has all miners on the node mine to a single address and tracks the balance owed to each miner in a separate user DB based on valid shares (registration required), this could be a pool wide solution for smaller miners, but you have to trust your node, and it would be nice to eliminate registration.

i.e. miner username is payout address, but shares are lumped to a single node address on the pool side and then paid out automatically (trustlessly) by the node when they reach X payout threshold...

Nasty has said they will not release the implementation as open source.

It's built on top of the existing p2pool python codebase, not C

Edit: Not knocking OgNasty, really like what he has built. He is an evangelist for bitcoin and his solution is the only implemented solution for smaller miners I have seen...

idonothave
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January 09, 2015, 07:32:43 AM
 #11524

If cgminer suports extranonce is it better to use it with p2pool or not?
yslyung
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January 09, 2015, 07:34:18 AM
 #11525

Isn't p2pool an open source?

Then why nasty is using it and not opening it?  Any violations there? https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool/blob/master/COPYING

Nasty has done a good job but tbh his pool small, pass it on to bigger pools around the world and others to let p2pool grow.

Sharing is caring. Not being nasty but just want to help p2pool ...
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January 09, 2015, 08:26:31 AM
 #11526

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..
I could easily rewrite it in c given enough time, and have been asked many times over about this. However it doesn't fix the fatal design flaw in p2pool's design, and no one has a meaningful workaround for it, so I would never embark on a futile task like that.

Primary developer/maintainer for cgminer and ckpool/ckproxy.
Pooled mine at kano.is, solo mine at solo.ckpool.org
-ck
idonothave
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January 09, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
 #11527

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..
I could easily rewrite it in c given enough time, and have been asked many times over about this. However it doesn't fix the fatal design flaw in p2pool's design, and no one has a meaningful workaround for it, so I would never embark on a futile task like that.

...fatal design flaw?
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January 09, 2015, 10:09:43 AM
 #11528

Wow. Lots of false information here.

OGNasty's implementation has all miners on the node mine to a single address and tracks the balance owed to each miner in a separate user DB based on valid shares (registration required), this could be a pool wide solution for smaller miners, but you have to trust your node, and it would be nice to eliminate registration.

There is no registration required. There never was.

I would also like a solution to creating P2Pool-subpools without trusting the node. I do not know how such a thing could exist. Sidechains maybe?

i.e. miner username is payout address, but shares are lumped to a single node address on the pool side and then paid out automatically (trustlessly) by the node when they reach X payout threshold...

NastyPool also allows mining using P2Pool payouts. What you describe is the optional NastyPoP payout method which is our attempt to make P2Pool more accessible to smaller or non-P2Pool miners. (It also does not require registration.)

Nasty has said they will not release the implementation as open source.

OgNasty does not own the code. I do. And there is nothing useful to open source since the NastyPoP implementation is part of the nastyfans framework and not part of P2Pool software. I talk about how NastyPoP is implemented here.

It's built on top of the existing p2pool python codebase, not C

What I implemented is pure C (just as all of nastyfans framework). It does not touch P2Pool code. NastyPool is running a unmmodified P2Pool node. Currently version 13.4-54-ge9b4018.

We are working to try to improve NastyPoP. Currently we work to integrate ckpool as a P2Pool frontend. But this is only for NastyPoP. NastyPool is not trying to make P2Pool better. We are trying to make it more popular by providing a frontend that will hopefully attract non-P2Pool miners that are used to reoccuring payouts with less variance.

I would also support P2Pool reimplementation in C for testing and code review and minor development. But my hands are too much filled already to take on that task myself. And I think such a large task should not only be a port from language A to language B but also involve a serious look at the problems with P2Pool to see if we can fix them. Such as share latencies and the exclusion of smaller miners. ckolivas would have my full backing for such a task.

mdude77
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January 09, 2015, 10:28:27 AM
 #11529

How can p2pool ever be written in C ?
Someone should take the job and donation address should be changed so it goes to developers, but is it enough to get started?
Its too difficult to even change the donation btc address now, if something like the ckproxy that works with pool gets done I would like to support that, but cant do that because cant change the code..  Donation could be a tool in p2pool to get things better (--donation btcaddress reason)
No one donates anything anymore, and development has stopped Sad  
P2pool could be running just fine on 4 cores atom if it was written in C..
I could easily rewrite it in c given enough time, and have been asked many times over about this. However it doesn't fix the fatal design flaw in p2pool's design, and no one has a meaningful workaround for it, so I would never embark on a futile task like that.

...fatal design flaw?

The larger the pool, the larger the pseudoshare difficulty, the harder it is for smaller miners to use it.  I'd also argue that the 30 second work restarts is pretty high up there, as long as there are cheap ASIC manufacturers like Bitmain that make hardware that doesn't like work restarts.

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January 09, 2015, 10:37:07 AM
 #11530

What nonnakip says is correct, his p2pool implementation uses the p2pool share chain & is of benefit to the p2pool network as well as smaller miners, and he should be commended for what he has tried to do. It is completely different to what Bitmain have done with their p2pool butchery setup & fake/false claims.

I could easily rewrite it in c given enough time, and have been asked many times over about this.

That would be me - guilty as charged..... Wink  However, I believe that having p2pool rewritten in C would open up the code to a far wider range of coders/developers, which could lead to a better chance of the variance problem being solved, as well as improving the performance of p2pool generally. Python devs are hard to come by, especially ones that are familiar with the Bitcoin/p2pool system, and it's also very sloooooow.

As ckolivas says, this has been discussed many, many times over the last couple of years, but as long as nothing happens I'm sure it will continue to be bought up again & again - until something is done, as it should be.

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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kano
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January 09, 2015, 10:50:08 AM
 #11531

The "issues" also missed the p2pool problem that "your" local pool is dependent upon the configuration for how much work is lost.
So when the average p2pool work lost is say 10%, that means that there are users losing well over 10% and users losing well under 10%
i.e. those running p2pool without the high performance of a tradition pool server setup and associated network connectivity are paying those running p2pool who do have such a setup.
Quite literally, the little guy with average or poor quality hardware/network is losing shares(=BTC) effectively given to the big guy with better hardware/network when mining on p2pool.
Adding some centralisation to p2pool by having multiple people mine on the same node, as some suggest, doesn't solve that particular problem since it adds latency for those remote miners.
When the p2pool average share change time is ~30s (vs BTC average block time of ~600s), the effect of latency on p2pool is 20 times as bad in effect as the same latency on a normal pool.

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
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yslyung
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January 09, 2015, 12:50:05 PM
 #11532

till then, out from p2pool for now till there's a fix or when someone helps to fix it.

bye for now p2pool.
windpath
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January 09, 2015, 02:13:14 PM
 #11533

till then, out from p2pool for now till there's a fix or when someone helps to fix it.

bye for now p2pool.

Are you a small miner (<1TH/s)?

Describing it as a "fatal flaw" is not really accurate, it is only fatal to those without enough hash power to maintain a share in the share chain.

Agreed it has been and will continue to be an issue for smaller miners, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

I'm a relatively small miner and have mined successfully on p2pool for almost a year now.

yslyung
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January 09, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
 #11534

I consider myself small hashing with 60ths+

Seems like those with knowledge is not interested in helping out much.

Really like the p2pool idea.

Personally i was also ready to offer a 1btc bounty or bonus if there were some +ve news but unfortunately it wasn't.
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January 09, 2015, 02:25:39 PM
 #11535

till then, out from p2pool for now till there's a fix or when someone helps to fix it.

bye for now p2pool.

Are you a small miner (<1TH/s)?

Describing it as a "fatal flaw" is not really accurate, it is only fatal to those without enough hash power to maintain a share in the share chain.

Agreed it has been and will continue to be an issue for smaller miners, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

I'm a relatively small miner and have mined successfully on p2pool for almost a year now.

I'm even smaller... but I really have to say I'm actually getting better payouts than mining on any other large pools. Yes, there may be a day or 2 without payments but so far, it has worked really well.

Edit: I'm a pin head in an ocean small....

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January 09, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
 #11536

Oh, does using the relay network really help? Coz I've been testing it for a couple of hours and my getwork latency increased rather than decrease.... It's that supposed to be or am I doing something wrong?

I use screen

screen -d -m -S RelayNetwork java -jar ./RelayNodeClient.jar public.sgp.relay.mattcorallo.com 127.0.0.1:8333

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January 09, 2015, 02:46:37 PM
 #11537

Oh, does using the relay network really help? Coz I've been testing it for a couple of hours and my getwork latency increased rather than decrease.... It's that supposed to be or am I doing something wrong?

I use screen

screen -d -m -S RelayNetwork java -jar ./RelayNodeClient.jar public.sgp.relay.mattcorallo.com 127.0.0.1:8333

The java client is super slow & not updated, it's a java thing.......use the client instead. Then you can get rid of java completely  Wink

If you are a small miner & you're comfortable using nonnakips code, you should take advantage of OgNastys p2pool - that's what it's designed for. We've had 3 blocks in 8 hours so far today, p2pool has consistently beaten every other pool out there as far as payouts go, it's truly decentralised, no late/missing payments & you're in control of it - what's not to like?

Yes, it has faults, but it still outperforms every other pool - if you're patient.

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
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January 09, 2015, 02:55:32 PM
 #11538


The java client is super slow & not updated, it's a java thing.......use the client instead. Then you can get rid of java completely  Wink

If you are a small miner you should take advantage of OgNastys p2pool - that's what it's designed for. We've had 3 blocks in 8 hours so far today, p2pool has consistently beaten every other pool out there as far as payouts go, it's truly decentralised, no late/missing payments & you're in control of it - what's not to like?

Yes, it has faults, but it still outperforms every other pool - if you're patient.

Oh.... er.. which client? my p2pool node is on linux. Are you referring to matt's p2pool node with the relay built in or? Sorry. LOL.

I'm only left with 4 S4 running but p2pool has been good so far. Been keeping track on earning from multiple pools and p2pool so far has topped everyone.

And yes, I love the fact that payment is instant upon solving the block. No trust/wait/time needed especially since I'm now mining straight to Trezor. I check with Trezor before I switched and they say generated tx is fine as long as you setup another account for generated tx. I think they're coming up with a fix to fix it but so far so good. Already got a few generated tx in Smiley

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January 09, 2015, 03:01:17 PM
 #11539

i'm also using the relay , tried both java & .exe my entire system runs on windows.

the exe version seems to be much faster.

@sEpuLchEr seems like u r located in sg heh ? hello from yr neighbor.

too expensive to turn miners over there yeah despite the recent drop in electricity prices in sg.

i managed to improve "some" latency issues by regedit in windows & i'm sure there's something you can do in linux. try that & see if it helps.

try to write to mike to get your pool listed here http://nodes.p2pool.co/ the results are pretty accurate.
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January 09, 2015, 03:05:29 PM
 #11540

i'm also using the relay , tried both java & .exe my entire system runs on windows.

the exe version seems to be much faster.

@sEpuLchEr seems like u r located in sg heh ? hello from yr neighbor.

too expensive to turn miners over there yeah despite the recent drop in electricity prices in sg.

Ahh.. just across the causeway then Smiley Yes. SG's electricity is expensive but mining is fun. 1 x S4 is about SG$250 a month for electricity. Can get it cheaper if using colo but I like to touch and caress my miners.... LOL.

Edit: I'm actually born in Malaysia. Mum was a Malaysian and Dad Singaporean. Was born in Johor and I spent a couple of years in Pontian which is my hometown. Most of my relatives are in Malaysia though. I could host my miners with them but....

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