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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2032916 times)
nonnakip
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April 14, 2015, 09:13:43 PM
 #12441

Pointing more hash at p2pool will not help, if anything, it will make it worse. As it always has & always will in it's current form. [...] P2pools problems won't just disappear - they have to be fixed. Then throw tons of hash at it. It's the same old story.

Increasing hashrates cause miner variance for smaller miners but I do not see that as a problem. If P2Pool was solving 10 blocks a day I believe the top 30% of P2Pool miners would be very happy. The rest may be unhappy because of huge variance but if they team up with friends and create subpools then they can become significant also.

Higher hashrates do not cause any extra load or latencies on the P2Pool network. I have no understanding for complaints about high hashrates.

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Transactions must be included in a block to be properly completed. When you send a transaction, it is broadcast to miners. Miners can then optionally include it in their next blocks. Miners will be more inclined to include your transaction if it has a transaction fee.
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Geremia
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April 15, 2015, 03:34:34 PM
 #12442

PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.
Why doesn't P2Pool just use PPS?

Also, can the software tell me which shares and how many I've contributed to a P2Pool mined block?

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April 15, 2015, 04:12:54 PM
 #12443

PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.
Why doesn't P2Pool just use PPS?

Also, can the software tell me which shares and how many I've contributed to a P2Pool mined block?
Oh common dnt bring the pps topic here please, its useless to discuss, beauty of p2pool is only the pplns and share chain concept. If it was pps then there wont be share chain concept n would be a regular pool.

By the way, we r going to break the 13% luck record i guess lol at present its 17% in round and still strugling.
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April 15, 2015, 04:31:16 PM
 #12444

If it was pps then there wont be share chain concept n would be a regular pool.
good point
thanks

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April 16, 2015, 10:30:58 PM
 #12445

Funny figures to see

Pool Luck
Current Round   14.48%
Seven Days    0%
Thirty Days   84.28%
Expected Time to Block   1d 7h 26m 42s
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April 17, 2015, 02:25:35 AM
 #12446

Funny figures to see

Pool Luck
Current Round   14.48%
Seven Days    0%
Thirty Days   84.28%
Expected Time to Block   1d 7h 26m 42s
Has anyone plotted a distribution of P2Pool's luck? Cf. this:



I did find this, but it's years outdated (from Nov. 2012):


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April 17, 2015, 03:25:11 AM
 #12447

Don't forget that you also have to make sure the luck calculation includes 95%-98% of the orphan share-chain shares (which will make the luck worse) and of course the orphan blocks that become valid bitcoin block-chain blocks (that will make the luck better)
I'm not sure anyone has included both together ...

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April 17, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
 #12448

Ok the worst luck record has been broken in p2pool today, last was on 2015-02-18 21:02:22 which was 13.24% and present round luck shows 13.22%

Congrats everyone for being a part of it lmao Grin
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April 17, 2015, 04:06:08 PM
 #12449

Ok the worst luck record has been broken in p2pool today, last was on 2015-02-18 21:02:22 which was 13.24% and present round luck shows 13.22%

Congrats everyone for being a part of it lmao Grin
I'd like to thank the Academy for giving me the opportunity... oh wait, wrong acceptance speech Smiley.

Thankfully most of my gear has been rented out so I've been fortunate enough to have received some BTC.  My 2 S3s are still plugging away on the Nasty node test.  Looks like my update this week is going to be easy to write, though.

Now, if we figure about a day and a half expected to solve a block, we're at about 533%.

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April 17, 2015, 07:04:31 PM
 #12450

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
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April 17, 2015, 07:44:27 PM
 #12451

very bad luck at the moment:
12,96% luck = 8d 8h without a block
( http://minefast.coincadence.com/p2pool-stats.php )

so here is my little conspiracy theory:
what it the p2pool system gets broken? will we recognize that? how?
so what if there is one really ugly block in the sharechain, which leads to a "rejection" of every found block.. would we see this?

proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373

i scrolled a little bit and found no other block with zero transations..
so this is really strange...
so maybe something got broken at that point?

@alh
google pool-hopping ( pools with pay-per-share systems have a problem with people who only mine when luck is > 100%. if you pay for every single block, you can caculate really easy how your luck will be.). this is avoided in p2pool, as you do not know your luck in advance - you will know it in some days when you know how many blocks were found - you will get payed for every block - but you have now no idea how many blocks that will be!
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April 17, 2015, 07:57:16 PM
 #12452

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
You're correct.  There really is no such thing as a hop-proof pool.  As long as you control your hardware, you can point it anywhere you want to mine.  PPLNS pools in general discourage hopping, but they certainly don't prevent it.

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Geremia
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April 17, 2015, 08:41:27 PM
 #12453

so what if there is one really ugly block in the sharechain, which leads to a "rejection" of every found block.. would we see this?
What would an "ugly block" be? And how could any type of block lead to the "'rejection' of every found block"? If it's a block, it's ipso facto valid.

proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.

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kano
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April 17, 2015, 09:16:12 PM
 #12454

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
It means it's using a payout scheme that you can't really game. PPLNS.

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April 17, 2015, 09:30:38 PM
 #12455

...
proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.
No, it means less BTC mined.
No transaction fees were in the block - that averages about 0.4% at my pool.

It's also bad for the BTC network.
The job of mining blocks is to confirm transactions.
That block had no transactions, so the payment of 25BTC was got for confirming no transactions.

To look at it in the extreme case - if no one was confirming transactions then no one could use BTC ...

With p2pool it is up to each individual how many and what transactions they put in each block.
The individual p2pool member who mined that block decided that the BTC payout was all they wanted - they don't care about Bitcoin and slowing down/stopping transactions on the BTC network.
Though they are indeed hypocritical if they ever use their BTC they received ... since that will require confirming their transaction in a block ...

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...

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Geremia
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April 17, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
 #12456

...
proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.
No, it means less BTC mined.
No transaction fees were in the block - that averages about 0.4% at my pool.

It's also bad for the BTC network.
The job of mining blocks is to confirm transactions.
That block had no transactions, so the payment of 25BTC was got for confirming no transactions.

To look at it in the extreme case - if no one was confirming transactions then no one could use BTC ...

With p2pool it is up to each individual how many and what transactions they put in each block.

The individual p2pool member who mined that block decided that the BTC payout was all they wanted - they don't care about Bitcoin and slowing down/stopping transactions on the BTC network.
Though they are indeed hypocritical if they ever use their BTC they received ... since that will require confirming their transaction in a block ...

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...
If they intentionally included no transactions in their mined block, then, yes, it is selfish; but, regardless, 25 more BTC were mined and put into circulation.

Actually, who / which address mined block 351373 with 0 transactions (besides the coinbase one)? Did they spend their award?

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April 17, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
 #12457

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...

Blasphemy! Wink

Seriously though, while we have (as a pool) mined a few 0 tx blocks in my time, the vast majority of nodes include transactions, which in my opinion is very important to do.

I'd also further argue that the vast majority of P2Pool miners do it for a love of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and the fact that zero-trust is required.

No offense to anyone on another pool, but when you consider the mindset of your average miner, P2Pool miners care more about the network then most.

Just look at BTC Guild or GHash when they were getting close to 50%, average miners flocked to them in droves to reap the rewards without concern for the potential impact while P2Pool chugged along completely decentralized.

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April 17, 2015, 10:37:25 PM
 #12458

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...

Blasphemy! Wink

Seriously though, while we have (as a pool) mined a few 0 tx blocks in my time, the vast majority of nodes include transactions, which in my opinion is very important to do.

I'd also further argue that the vast majority of P2Pool miners do it for a love of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and the fact that zero-trust is required.

No offense to anyone on another pool, but when you consider the mindset of your average miner, P2Pool miners care more about the network then most.

Just look at BTC Guild or GHash when they were getting close to 50%, average miners flocked to them in droves to reap the rewards without concern for the potential impact while P2Pool chugged along completely decentralized.
Yes, indeed.
I guess my comment could have come off as a negative to p2pool - but it wasn't meant to be at all.
That 'some' was only a few ... not lots.

Edit: some of the big pools start blocks changes with empty blocks also.
This is an issue I've reiterated about anyone using the eloipool software ... like Eligius ...
Antpool also does this.
They produce empty blocks on occasion and do it to reduce their rejects at the pool coz their software is slow.
They clearly fall under the heading of pools doing things inherently bad for bitcoin.
We don't ever do this with ckpool - I always use the transactions in the block template if they are there from bitcoind.

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April 17, 2015, 10:48:59 PM
 #12459

so what if there is one really ugly block in the sharechain, which leads to a "rejection" of every found block.. would we see this?
What would an "ugly block" be? And how could any type of block lead to the "'rejection' of every found block"? If it's a block, it's ipso facto valid.
i am in the altcoin scene.. there are many possbilies where a block has the right difficulty, but is not acepted in the network.. the coin daemon simply rejects it although you have the right difficulty.. maybe a block which does not include masternoes ( darkcoin aka dash ) or has other "problems". so you see "block rejected" in your log.. maybe you can ignore that for 500 myriadcoin.. but it would be really hard if 25 BTC were lost this way.. every aspect of a block has to be valid.. all transactions, etc...
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April 18, 2015, 05:26:38 AM
 #12460

I wish I had more data to work with, but here's what the luck distribution looks like (as of today):


(data courtesy Minefast.CoinCadence.com P2Pool stats)

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