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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2033281 times)
jonnybravo0311
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April 13, 2015, 05:15:28 PM
 #12421

Why isn't http://p2pool.info/ up-to-date?
Because nobody maintains it.

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Geremia
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April 13, 2015, 06:22:54 PM
 #12422

Why isn't http://p2pool.info/ up-to-date?
Because nobody maintains it.
What sort of maintenence does it take? And is the source for it on GitHub?

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lightfoot
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April 13, 2015, 09:09:52 PM
 #12423

P2pool is seeing the worst luck in last 3 months.
This after blocks appeared upon us like showers of gold.

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April 13, 2015, 09:25:59 PM
 #12424

Why isn't http://p2pool.info/ up-to-date?
Because nobody maintains it.
What sort of maintenence does it take? And is the source for it on GitHub?
Apparently too much for the current owner to bother keeping it up to date.  You want good stats?  Check out windpath's site: minefast.coincidence.com

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April 13, 2015, 09:40:09 PM
 #12425

You want good stats?  Check out windpath's site: minefast.coincidence.com
thanks
Here's what appears to be the correct URL: http://minefast.coincadence.com/p2pool-stats.php
That is a good page.

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Geremia
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April 13, 2015, 09:55:52 PM
 #12426

Fresh-mined coins for payouts were innovated by pools in the following order: puddinpop, Eligius, BitPenny, p2pool.
This would seem to make all these pools equally immune to potential pool manager fraud, then, no?
Does P2Pool have any advantage, security-wise, over the others mentioned here?

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jonnybravo0311
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April 13, 2015, 10:09:25 PM
 #12427

Fresh-mined coins for payouts were innovated by pools in the following order: puddinpop, Eligius, BitPenny, p2pool.
This would seem to make all these pools equally immune to potential pool manager fraud, then, no?
Does P2Pool have any advantage, security-wise, over the others mentioned here?
P2Pool has the best chance of avoiding fraud because of its decentralized nature.  Sure a node operator could charge ridiculous fees on his own node, but nobody would mine there.

Centralized pools could easily skim off the top.  Generate a percentage of coins to your own address.  Would the average miner know if he's missing a small portion of a payout?  He'd probably explain it away as bad pool luck.

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April 13, 2015, 10:35:23 PM
 #12428

Fresh-mined coins for payouts were innovated by pools in the following order: puddinpop, Eligius, BitPenny, p2pool.
This would seem to make all these pools equally immune to potential pool manager fraud, then, no?
Does P2Pool have any advantage, security-wise, over the others mentioned here?
P2Pool is the only one that has any immunity coz the breakdown of the payout is distributed to all nodes and all nodes must mine to a correct breakdown or their shares will not be included in the share chain.
The others can do whatever they like to the coinbase payout just as any other pool can with their payout scheme.

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April 13, 2015, 10:38:13 PM
 #12429

Fresh-mined coins for payouts were innovated by pools in the following order: puddinpop, Eligius, BitPenny, p2pool.
This would seem to make all these pools equally immune to potential pool manager fraud, then, no?
Does P2Pool have any advantage, security-wise, over the others mentioned here?
P2Pool has the best chance of avoiding fraud because of its decentralized nature.  Sure a node operator could charge ridiculous fees on his own node, but nobody would mine there.

Centralized pools could easily skim off the top.  Generate a percentage of coins to your own address.  Would the average miner know if he's missing a small portion of a payout?  He'd probably explain it away as bad pool luck.
indeed
thus P2Pool passes my inspection. Smiley

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kano
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April 13, 2015, 10:45:36 PM
 #12430

Fresh-mined coins for payouts were innovated by pools in the following order: puddinpop, Eligius, BitPenny, p2pool.
This would seem to make all these pools equally immune to potential pool manager fraud, then, no?
Does P2Pool have any advantage, security-wise, over the others mentioned here?
P2Pool has the best chance of avoiding fraud because of its decentralized nature.  Sure a node operator could charge ridiculous fees on his own node, but nobody would mine there.

Centralized pools could easily skim off the top.  Generate a percentage of coins to your own address.  Would the average miner know if he's missing a small portion of a payout?  He'd probably explain it away as bad pool luck.
indeed
thus P2Pool passes my inspection. Smiley
As long as you are OK with the inherent issues with how p2pool works Smiley

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
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Geremia
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April 14, 2015, 02:47:52 AM
 #12431

As long as you are OK with the inherent issues with how p2pool works Smiley
What issue?… Smiley

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jonnybravo0311
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April 14, 2015, 04:10:22 AM
 #12432

As long as you are OK with the inherent issues with how p2pool works Smiley
What issue?… Smiley

In a nutshell p2pool doesn't scale.  Unlike the centralized pool model where the higher the hash rate of the pool the lower the variance for the miner, here because of the share chain concept the higher the hash rate the greater the variance experienced by miners.

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April 14, 2015, 07:54:14 AM
 #12433

In a nutshell p2pool doesn't scale.  Unlike the centralized pool model where the higher the hash rate of the pool the lower the variance for the miner, here because of the share chain concept the higher the hash rate the greater the variance experienced by miners.

However it is a double edge sword. If P2Pool hashrate is too low then blocks are solved too slow and miner shares drop off the share chain. In my opinion this is much worse than higher variance because it means wasted energy and money. And in my opinion unfair.

P2Pool should have as high hashrate as we can give it. If your miner is too weak to generate shares regularly then you should either join a trusted P2Pool subpool or start your own P2Pool subpool.

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April 14, 2015, 01:25:13 PM
 #12434


However it is a double edge sword. If P2Pool hashrate is too low then blocks are solved too slow and miner shares drop off the share chain. In my opinion this is much worse than higher variance because it means wasted energy and money. And in my opinion unfair.

P2Pool should have as high hashrate as we can give it. If your miner is too weak to generate shares regularly then you should either join a trusted P2Pool subpool or start your own P2Pool subpool.

Well said.

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April 14, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
 #12435

In a nutshell p2pool doesn't scale.  Unlike the centralized pool model where the higher the hash rate of the pool the lower the variance for the miner, here because of the share chain concept the higher the hash rate the greater the variance experienced by miners.

However it is a double edge sword. If P2Pool hashrate is too low then blocks are solved too slow and miner shares drop off the share chain. In my opinion this is much worse than higher variance because it means wasted energy and money. And in my opinion unfair.

P2Pool should have as high hashrate as we can give it. If your miner is too weak to generate shares regularly then you should either join a trusted P2Pool subpool or start your own P2Pool subpool.

Exactly bro, without high hashrate in p2pool, people loose earned shares due to blocks being solved too slow. Atleast a 4-5PH minimum hashrate would make p2pool better i guess. Ya ofcourse finding a share will become a little more harder but payouts will be stable atleast. With a average 1PH now, its nothing compared to other pools.
jonnybravo0311
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April 14, 2015, 04:10:03 PM
 #12436

In a nutshell p2pool doesn't scale.  Unlike the centralized pool model where the higher the hash rate of the pool the lower the variance for the miner, here because of the share chain concept the higher the hash rate the greater the variance experienced by miners.

However it is a double edge sword. If P2Pool hashrate is too low then blocks are solved too slow and miner shares drop off the share chain. In my opinion this is much worse than higher variance because it means wasted energy and money. And in my opinion unfair.

P2Pool should have as high hashrate as we can give it. If your miner is too weak to generate shares regularly then you should either join a trusted P2Pool subpool or start your own P2Pool subpool.
I fully agree.  I gave only one of the sword's edges in explaining the higher variance.  You provided the other edge.  Miners feel it both ways... hash rate too low and you've got shares dropping off the chain before they're paid.  Hash rate too high and you've got blocks found where you've got no shares to be paid.

Your solution mitigates this by creating the sub-pool.  Yes, a miner sacrifices some of the decentralized freedom using this model;  however, it gives miners a less variant payout.  To date it's the best solution that's been provided to the problem.

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Geremia
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April 14, 2015, 05:31:56 PM
 #12437

shares dropping off the chain before they're paid
What do you mean?

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jonnybravo0311
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April 14, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
 #12438

shares dropping off the chain before they're paid
What do you mean?
PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.  It's that way for every PPLNS pool.  For example, kano's pool is 500%.  It's what makes the pools resistant to pool hopping - you get a ramp up and ramp down time for your work. 

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lightfoot
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April 14, 2015, 05:43:13 PM
 #12439

shares dropping off the chain before they're paid
What do you mean?
PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.  It's that way for every PPLNS pool.  For example, kano's pool is 500%.  It's what makes the pools resistant to pool hopping - you get a ramp up and ramp down time for your work. 
Sure, but if you're hashing at the minimum rate it means that while a share will drop off the chain half the time, you will get two shares the other half of the time leading to an average of 1 share. That's the whole thing about luck, it's... well luck but approaches the optimal payout value for how much you hash unless the pool is rigged.
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April 14, 2015, 07:46:38 PM
 #12440

Pointing more hash at p2pool will not help, if anything, it will make it worse. As it always has & always will in it's current form. There is a reason the hash rate has been declining for the last 6 months:



P2pools problems won't just disappear - they have to be fixed. Then throw tons of hash at it. It's the same old story.

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