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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2591571 times)
jonnybravo0311
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April 14, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
 #12421

shares dropping off the chain before they're paid
What do you mean?
PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.  It's that way for every PPLNS pool.  For example, kano's pool is 500%.  It's what makes the pools resistant to pool hopping - you get a ramp up and ramp down time for your work. 

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lightfoot
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April 14, 2015, 05:43:13 PM
 #12422

shares dropping off the chain before they're paid
What do you mean?
PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.  It's that way for every PPLNS pool.  For example, kano's pool is 500%.  It's what makes the pools resistant to pool hopping - you get a ramp up and ramp down time for your work. 
Sure, but if you're hashing at the minimum rate it means that while a share will drop off the chain half the time, you will get two shares the other half of the time leading to an average of 1 share. That's the whole thing about luck, it's... well luck but approaches the optimal payout value for how much you hash unless the pool is rigged.
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April 14, 2015, 07:46:38 PM
 #12423

Pointing more hash at p2pool will not help, if anything, it will make it worse. As it always has & always will in it's current form. There is a reason the hash rate has been declining for the last 6 months:



P2pools problems won't just disappear - they have to be fixed. Then throw tons of hash at it. It's the same old story.

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April 14, 2015, 09:13:43 PM
 #12424

Pointing more hash at p2pool will not help, if anything, it will make it worse. As it always has & always will in it's current form. [...] P2pools problems won't just disappear - they have to be fixed. Then throw tons of hash at it. It's the same old story.

Increasing hashrates cause miner variance for smaller miners but I do not see that as a problem. If P2Pool was solving 10 blocks a day I believe the top 30% of P2Pool miners would be very happy. The rest may be unhappy because of huge variance but if they team up with friends and create subpools then they can become significant also.

Higher hashrates do not cause any extra load or latencies on the P2Pool network. I have no understanding for complaints about high hashrates.
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April 15, 2015, 03:34:34 PM
 #12425

PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.
Why doesn't P2Pool just use PPS?

Also, can the software tell me which shares and how many I've contributed to a P2Pool mined block?

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bhanu545
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April 15, 2015, 04:12:54 PM
 #12426

PPLNS shares have a shelf-life.  For p2pool, that's either 8640 shares or 3 times the average work of finding a block (i.e. 300%), whichever is lower.
Why doesn't P2Pool just use PPS?

Also, can the software tell me which shares and how many I've contributed to a P2Pool mined block?
Oh common dnt bring the pps topic here please, its useless to discuss, beauty of p2pool is only the pplns and share chain concept. If it was pps then there wont be share chain concept n would be a regular pool.

By the way, we r going to break the 13% luck record i guess lol at present its 17% in round and still strugling.
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April 15, 2015, 04:31:16 PM
 #12427

If it was pps then there wont be share chain concept n would be a regular pool.
good point
thanks

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April 16, 2015, 10:30:58 PM
 #12428

Funny figures to see

Pool Luck
Current Round   14.48%
Seven Days    0%
Thirty Days   84.28%
Expected Time to Block   1d 7h 26m 42s
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April 17, 2015, 02:25:35 AM
Last edit: April 17, 2015, 02:37:58 AM by Geremia
 #12429

Funny figures to see

Pool Luck
Current Round   14.48%
Seven Days    0%
Thirty Days   84.28%
Expected Time to Block   1d 7h 26m 42s
Has anyone plotted a distribution of P2Pool's luck? Cf. this:



I did find this, but it's years outdated (from Nov. 2012):


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kano
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April 17, 2015, 03:25:11 AM
 #12430

Don't forget that you also have to make sure the luck calculation includes 95%-98% of the orphan share-chain shares (which will make the luck worse) and of course the orphan blocks that become valid bitcoin block-chain blocks (that will make the luck better)
I'm not sure anyone has included both together ...

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April 17, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
 #12431

Ok the worst luck record has been broken in p2pool today, last was on 2015-02-18 21:02:22 which was 13.24% and present round luck shows 13.22%

Congrats everyone for being a part of it lmao Grin
jonnybravo0311
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April 17, 2015, 04:06:08 PM
 #12432

Ok the worst luck record has been broken in p2pool today, last was on 2015-02-18 21:02:22 which was 13.24% and present round luck shows 13.22%

Congrats everyone for being a part of it lmao Grin
I'd like to thank the Academy for giving me the opportunity... oh wait, wrong acceptance speech Smiley.

Thankfully most of my gear has been rented out so I've been fortunate enough to have received some BTC.  My 2 S3s are still plugging away on the Nasty node test.  Looks like my update this week is going to be easy to write, though.

Now, if we figure about a day and a half expected to solve a block, we're at about 533%.

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alh
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April 17, 2015, 07:04:31 PM
 #12433

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
manfred87
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April 17, 2015, 07:44:27 PM
 #12434

very bad luck at the moment:
12,96% luck = 8d 8h without a block
( http://minefast.coincadence.com/p2pool-stats.php )

so here is my little conspiracy theory:
what it the p2pool system gets broken? will we recognize that? how?
so what if there is one really ugly block in the sharechain, which leads to a "rejection" of every found block.. would we see this?

proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373

i scrolled a little bit and found no other block with zero transations..
so this is really strange...
so maybe something got broken at that point?

@alh
google pool-hopping ( pools with pay-per-share systems have a problem with people who only mine when luck is > 100%. if you pay for every single block, you can caculate really easy how your luck will be.). this is avoided in p2pool, as you do not know your luck in advance - you will know it in some days when you know how many blocks were found - you will get payed for every block - but you have now no idea how many blocks that will be!
jonnybravo0311
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April 17, 2015, 07:57:16 PM
 #12435

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
You're correct.  There really is no such thing as a hop-proof pool.  As long as you control your hardware, you can point it anywhere you want to mine.  PPLNS pools in general discourage hopping, but they certainly don't prevent it.

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April 17, 2015, 08:41:27 PM
 #12436

so what if there is one really ugly block in the sharechain, which leads to a "rejection" of every found block.. would we see this?
What would an "ugly block" be? And how could any type of block lead to the "'rejection' of every found block"? If it's a block, it's ipso facto valid.

proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.

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kano
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April 17, 2015, 09:16:12 PM
 #12437

The title of this thread includes "Hop-Proof". While I expect that is really just hyperbole, I wondered what it would mean to be "Hop Proof"? Contracts with the pool members to never use another pool? Kind of like getting married?  Smiley
It means it's using a payout scheme that you can't really game. PPLNS.

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kano
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April 17, 2015, 09:30:38 PM
 #12438

...
proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.
No, it means less BTC mined.
No transaction fees were in the block - that averages about 0.4% at my pool.

It's also bad for the BTC network.
The job of mining blocks is to confirm transactions.
That block had no transactions, so the payment of 25BTC was got for confirming no transactions.

To look at it in the extreme case - if no one was confirming transactions then no one could use BTC ...

With p2pool it is up to each individual how many and what transactions they put in each block.
The individual p2pool member who mined that block decided that the BTC payout was all they wanted - they don't care about Bitcoin and slowing down/stopping transactions on the BTC network.
Though they are indeed hypocritical if they ever use their BTC they received ... since that will require confirming their transaction in a block ...

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...

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April 17, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
 #12439

...
proof for this: the last found block of p2pool has ZERO transactions: ( just the one for mining )
https://blockchain.info/block-height/351373
What's wrong with that? It just means more BTC mined.
No, it means less BTC mined.
No transaction fees were in the block - that averages about 0.4% at my pool.

It's also bad for the BTC network.
The job of mining blocks is to confirm transactions.
That block had no transactions, so the payment of 25BTC was got for confirming no transactions.

To look at it in the extreme case - if no one was confirming transactions then no one could use BTC ...

With p2pool it is up to each individual how many and what transactions they put in each block.

The individual p2pool member who mined that block decided that the BTC payout was all they wanted - they don't care about Bitcoin and slowing down/stopping transactions on the BTC network.
Though they are indeed hypocritical if they ever use their BTC they received ... since that will require confirming their transaction in a block ...

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...
If they intentionally included no transactions in their mined block, then, yes, it is selfish; but, regardless, 25 more BTC were mined and put into circulation.

Actually, who / which address mined block 351373 with 0 transactions (besides the coinbase one)? Did they spend their award?

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April 17, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
 #12440

This subject has come up before and there were some p2pool members who made it clear that they don't care about confirming transactions ...
I wonder how many of them ever used any BTC ... ever ...

Blasphemy! Wink

Seriously though, while we have (as a pool) mined a few 0 tx blocks in my time, the vast majority of nodes include transactions, which in my opinion is very important to do.

I'd also further argue that the vast majority of P2Pool miners do it for a love of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and the fact that zero-trust is required.

No offense to anyone on another pool, but when you consider the mindset of your average miner, P2Pool miners care more about the network then most.

Just look at BTC Guild or GHash when they were getting close to 50%, average miners flocked to them in droves to reap the rewards without concern for the potential impact while P2Pool chugged along completely decentralized.
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