Bitcoin Forum
May 03, 2024, 07:25:56 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 [88] 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 ... 226 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware  (Read 423205 times)
sokol815
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10



View Profile
August 07, 2013, 09:08:20 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2013, 09:23:23 PM by sokol815
 #1741

This post is incredibly long, the end goal is to say "Yes, there is hope that bitcoin mining profitability is not dead yet." Bear with me here.

To all of our friends who are saying profitability is dead....

Not yet. Maybe "insanely quick profitability" is dead, but not profitability. some quick figures:
it costs about $300.00 to purchase a fully functional K16. Steamboat has said that the chips should be able to punch out 325 MH/s each.... a single miner then comes out to 5200 MH/s.

Now for some conjecture:

Difficulty adjusts every 2016 blocks.
as of lately, blocks have been about 8 minutes long. (a result of a 20% increase in hashing power each set of 2016 blocks; the last 6 difficulty changes have averaged out to about 20.79%; the last 17 have been 15.89%)
It takes then, about 10.9 days for 1 difficulty adjustment to go through.
if the % increase remains constant at 20%, there will be 33.5 difficulty adjustments in a year
that means that a machine which could get 1 bitcoin in the first difficulty set would be able to get only 1/(1.2^33.5) bitcoins at the end of the year, or about 0.00223 bitcoins. In other words, difficulty increases to 449x what it was at the beginning of the year.
our January 8, 2013 difficulty was 3,249,550.
449 * 3,249,550 = 1,459,047,950 Projected difficulty on Jan 8, 2014 if current growth had been sustained from the beginning to the end of the year.

Ok, we are off-target for hitting 1.46 billion this year. if growth increases at 20% per difficulty adjustment for the rest of the year, we would hit about 500,000,000 difficulty. (This would require $99,149,202 worth of network chip hashing power to be in-place and running by the end of the year. [more info on how I came up with that figure below])

all the calculations below are done with avalon chips and avalon chip equivalents. This is done because an assumption is made that chips by other companies will be approximately the same in a chip's Mh to cost ratio.

theoretically, if a 20% change had been sustained through this whole year (it has not been, see 3 paragraphs above), the below 1.46 billion difficulty would be hit. For this example, let's say it has been and will be sustained through the end of the year.

I would be very surprised if the difficulty continued to increase up to 1.46 billion by Jan 2014, this is why:
Based on historic data, 7.15 TH is enough to increase difficulty by 1 million... (equivalent avalon asic chip cost of $198,298 not including boards)
Thus far, Avalon has received about 331.9 TH worth of chip orders, worth $7,577,980. The current difficulty of 37,508,353 represents approximately that same amount of cost ($7,510,356).
so, a 1.46 billion difficulty would require 10,439 TH to be achieved... (equivalent avalon asic chip cost of $288,722,476 not including boards)
I doubt another $280,700,000 will be invested into buying chips by Jan 2014 to create the 1.46 billion difficulty that would result.

In short, this current rate of growth is not sustainable without either an increase in bitcoin's per unit worth, or an increase in MH/unit cost for chips. I think it is pretty likely that the current growth rate is not here to stay, look for it slowing down within the next 6 or 7 difficulty adjustments. (7 more adjustments at 20% would result in a difficulty of 134,399,210 for an approximate network cost of $19,000,000 in chips alone.) People already seem to be slowing down in how fast they are snatching up more available hashing power, and how fast they are snatching up hashing power that will be available in the future.

Here are some ROI calculations:
assume your electricity costs $0.15 per kWh and assuming a single miner uses 50 watts per hour to run.
assume a very steep .1 profitability decline per year e.g. difficulty increased to 10x the original difficulty after 1 year.

At difficulty 37.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 692.67$. It will take about 1.64 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.

At difficulty 100.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 18.91$. It will take about 7.5 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.

That may only be a 6% ROI, but it is still profitable.

Some figures for when to pull the plug and chuck for scrap. ROI calculations are much more difficult, and were covered above. Also note, this table below does not take into account the cost for cooling. This table compares electricity costs and difficulty.
The question: "Should I keep mining with my K16?"
Difficulty$.25 per kWh$.20 per kWh$.15 per kWh$.10 per kWh
2.25 Billionnononono
2.2 Billionnononoyes
2.1 Billionnononoyes
2.0 Billionnononoyes
1.9 Billionnononoyes
1.8 Billionnononoyes
1.7 Billionnononoyes
1.6 Billionnononoyes
1.5 Billionnonoyesyes
1.4 Billionnonoyesyes
1.3 Billionnonoyesyes
1.2 Billionnonoyesyes
1.1 Billionnoyesyesyes
1.0 Billionnoyesyesyes
0.9 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.8 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.7 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.6 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.5 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.4 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.3 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.2 Billionyesyesyesyes
0.1 Billionyesyesyesyes

BTC: 1DGoGCg93igczMttDQn5SAE9x6zn4KZ8bv
LTC: LiP6Pskxa5tdDAhdwYeqszRFBMQev2ndBr
FTC: 6efcHwHYG3rk8SP37odyCrKqdxWom8rsen
1714721156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714721156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714721156
Reply with quote  #2

1714721156
Report to moderator
Each block is stacked on top of the previous one. Adding another block to the top makes all lower blocks more difficult to remove: there is more "weight" above each block. A transaction in a block 6 blocks deep (6 confirmations) will be very difficult to remove.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714721156
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714721156

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714721156
Reply with quote  #2

1714721156
Report to moderator
powpow
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 10


Developer


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 01:27:25 AM
Last edit: August 08, 2013, 01:39:16 AM by powpow
 #1742


449 * 3,249,550 = 1,459,047,950 Projected difficulty on Jan 8, 2014 if current growth had been sustained from the beginning to the end of the year.

Here are some ROI calculations:
assume your electricity costs $0.15 per kWh and assuming a single miner uses 50 watts per hour to run.
assume a very steep .1 profitability decline per year e.g. difficulty increased to 10x the original difficulty after 1 year.

At difficulty 37.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 692.67$. It will take about 1.64 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.

At difficulty 100.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 18.91$. It will take about 7.5 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.


My data looks much different than yours.  I also prefer to express return in BTC rather than $.  Data assumes 20% increase in difficulty.  Gain is calculated for each window of difficulty then added to the next window until difficulty reaches a point of BTC and electricity canceling each other out per period (Around 2,000,000,000 Difficulty).  This is for one K16 miner (elec included).  I'm already past ROI.

miner_btc
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 60
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 02:13:13 AM
 #1743

Dang, that makes this look bleak. Sure am glad that I get to host these at work for free.  Cool
Stringchains
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 61
Merit: 10


View Profile WWW
August 08, 2013, 02:33:42 AM
 #1744




WE BETTER GET THESE DAMN THINGS BY SEPTEMBER!!  Angry

I wanna at least get half my money back .. or maybe a quarter? .... I wanna get something back...  Embarrassed if I could get $1000 back from the $5000 I invested that would make me feel a little better seeing a 'grand' number than a hundred's number Embarrassed... All in all worst case scenario it would suck most knowing ALL my money I spent months saving got thrown out the window, in which case I may as well accept that fact and take it as a lesson learned-- dangers of gambling...

There are those of us who aren't even money guys, we don't even deal with cash; we don't need it. We look down upon it... We deal with bitcoins. - Stringchains
INVEST 0.035 BTC ----> 1-2 YEARS ----> OVER 50 BTC RETURN
http://www.bitbillions.com/?refid=16oqezxg8gENsgFQrpgCyF8e6Ff3yaFRQJ
kostagr33k
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 309
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 02:42:22 AM
 #1745

Well if you invest long term, and expect BTC to gain value, you have not lost money. Sure you could have just bought 50 BTC with $5000, but thats to easy and no fun in it!


Kosta
Stringchains
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 61
Merit: 10


View Profile WWW
August 08, 2013, 02:48:14 AM
 #1746

Well if you invest long term, and expect BTC to gain value, you have not lost money. Sure you could have just bought 50 BTC with $5000, but thats to easy and no fun in it!


Kosta

I interpreted that as "Well if you invest long term, and expect BTC to gain value, you have not lost money.  you could have just bought 50 BTC with $5000"  Embarrassed

I sure could have done a lot of things with that $5000.... Awww Sad


FUD YOU AVALON!!! FUD YOOUUUUUU!!!!

There are those of us who aren't even money guys, we don't even deal with cash; we don't need it. We look down upon it... We deal with bitcoins. - Stringchains
INVEST 0.035 BTC ----> 1-2 YEARS ----> OVER 50 BTC RETURN
http://www.bitbillions.com/?refid=16oqezxg8gENsgFQrpgCyF8e6Ff3yaFRQJ
kostagr33k
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 309
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 03:15:28 AM
 #1747

I almost bought $1000 of Bitcoin at $1, if not lower. I just say $1 because Id rather lose out on $100,000 in 2 years, instead of More if I had that great idea when it was Less then $1.


We all should know when products need "8-10" weeks to be delivered, that we are at risk for these problems. I just hope Avalon ships the chips ASAP and we can get these boards hashing as soon as possible.

Also don't forget soon there will be several Players in the ASIC market. Hopefully the next Player will say, Hey guys we have 10gh/s boards, in our warehouse ready to ship. If that *WAS* the case at that point  , I have no doubt you would spend another $5,000 if you knew your definitive ROI (i.e. they release how many boards/week etc).


BTC is still fairly new to me, and its been a roller coaster. Thats half the fun in my eyes. Other Half will be when my K16s are online!!


Kosta
User705
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 896
Merit: 1006


First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 03:44:59 AM
 #1748

How about we all learn our lesson and let investors invest in companies that develop products and let buyers of gear find gear to buy when it ships next few days not next few months.

nightengale
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 03:45:29 AM
 #1749

I almost bought $1000 of Bitcoin at $1, if not lower. I just say $1 because Id rather lose out on $100,000 in 2 years, instead of More if I had that great idea when it was Less then $1.


We all should know when products need "8-10" weeks to be delivered, that we are at risk for these problems. I just hope Avalon ships the chips ASAP and we can get these boards hashing as soon as possible.

Also don't forget soon there will be several Players in the ASIC market. Hopefully the next Player will say, Hey guys we have 10gh/s boards, in our warehouse ready to ship. If that *WAS* the case at that point  , I have no doubt you would spend another $5,000 if you knew your definitive ROI (i.e. they release how many boards/week etc).


BTC is still fairly new to me, and its been a roller coaster. Thats half the fun in my eyes. Other Half will be when my K16s are online!!


Kosta

You almost bought $1000 of Bitcoin at $1, yet BTC is fairly new to you...

We all should have known about the degree of risk...

Incoherent dude. Go back to sleep.
kostagr33k
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 309
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 04:07:26 AM
 #1750

Knowing about Bitcoin when it was at $1, and truly knowing Bitcoin, are two different things.


I know about cars and how they run, but I can not rebuild an engine.



Kosta
ionstorm
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 266
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 04:56:42 AM
 #1751

the "i'm not dead thread."

Just got off the plane, expect lots of news tomorrow.


Hope this is good news for us, steamboat, get ready for (hopefully) an incoming shipment.
BitCsByBit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 05:35:32 AM
 #1752

Yifu (BitSyncom) has responded.

the "i'm not dead thread."

Just got off the plane, expect lots of news tomorrow.


We should soon know what's happening with the chips.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269950.0

Tipsy jar: 1HgfLMXiJQj9KZ7abLRh9rWuR7dgeSyub4
brishtiteveja
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 49
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 07:49:33 AM
 #1753

Oh Man, this bitcoin is killing me, killing me.. I often wish I had never heard of it..Wanting quick buck is the dark hole where we all dive... Now fighting against each other in that very darkness..lol.. Hope Yifu and steamboat bring the burning sun inside that damn hole to make us burst into tears out of joy  !!! Roll Eyes Grin
TheJuice
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 841
Merit: 608


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
 #1754


449 * 3,249,550 = 1,459,047,950 Projected difficulty on Jan 8, 2014 if current growth had been sustained from the beginning to the end of the year.

Here are some ROI calculations:
assume your electricity costs $0.15 per kWh and assuming a single miner uses 50 watts per hour to run.
assume a very steep .1 profitability decline per year e.g. difficulty increased to 10x the original difficulty after 1 year.

At difficulty 37.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 692.67$. It will take about 1.64 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.

At difficulty 100.4 million:
over 12 months of running you would earn 18.91$. It will take about 7.5 months to pay for your miner, the rest is income.


My data looks much different than yours.  I also prefer to express return in BTC rather than $.  Data assumes 20% increase in difficulty.  Gain is calculated for each window of difficulty then added to the next window until difficulty reaches a point of BTC and electricity canceling each other out per period (Around 2,000,000,000 Difficulty).  This is for one K16 miner (elec included).  I'm already past ROI.




Yea, I have similar calcs. Breakeven date seems to be around 9/1/13...
sokol815
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10



View Profile
August 08, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
 #1755

So you guys really think there will be an additional $92,000,000 (give or take 10,000,000) invested in mining by the end of the year?

BTC: 1DGoGCg93igczMttDQn5SAE9x6zn4KZ8bv
LTC: LiP6Pskxa5tdDAhdwYeqszRFBMQev2ndBr
FTC: 6efcHwHYG3rk8SP37odyCrKqdxWom8rsen
powpow
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 10


Developer


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 03:45:16 PM
 #1756

So you guys really think there will be an additional $92,000,000 (give or take 10,000,000) invested in mining by the end of the year?

Yes.
RinaMar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 10
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 04:18:06 PM
 #1757

anyone interested in purchasing my 64 Batch 5 chips? I have decided that I am not going to wait.

I did my GPU mining for a while. I have a BFL Jally on the way, sometime in the next century, Maybe.....
either way that will be enough for me.
psionix
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 10
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
 #1758

RinaMar, how much are 64 chips again? i've forgotten the calculation and might be interested
RinaMar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 10
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 05:29:33 PM
 #1759

Quote
This email is to confirm receipt of 5.504 BTC for 64 Batch 5 Avalon ASIC chips. Thank you for your order.
Have a wonderful day,

Steamboat

if you want them PM me and we can exchange personal info etc
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 08, 2013, 06:14:18 PM
 #1760

So you guys really think there will be an additional $92,000,000 (give or take 10,000,000) invested in mining by the end of the year?

Yes.

No, a 10x increase in the network hash rate from today's rate, results in roughly a 2 year payback for K16s if BTC stays stable around $100.

Based on network growth during the FPGA/GPU era, the hash rate growth quickly slowed and then stopped when the payback reached around 1 year.

This is logical, when it takes over 1-2 years of mining just to break even and there are risks that some new technology will disrupt that, why not just buy BTC? Maybe now with professional mining companies a slightly longer payback will be accepted, but I don't think we're ever going to see network growth when payback exceeds 10 years anytime soon.

Network    BTC/day   $/day    profit/day   payback (months)
Thash/sec            
 200      0.1008    $10.08    $9.95    0.92
 400      0.0504    $5.04     $4.91    1.87             <<-- We are almost here & going up quick
 600      0.0336    $3.36     $3.23    2.84
 800      0.0252    $2.52     $2.39    3.83
 1,000    0.0202    $2.02     $1.89    4.86
 2,000    0.0101    $1.01     $0.88    10.44
 4,000    0.0050    $0.50     $0.37    24.48          <<--- Hash rate growth will stop here
 6,000    0.0034    $0.34     $0.21    44.41
 8,000    0.0025    $0.25     $0.12    74.89
 10,000   0.0020    $0.20     $0.07    127.31
 20,000   0.0010    $0.10     $(0.03)  
 40,000   0.0005    $0.05     $(0.08)  
 60,000   0.0003    $0.03     $(0.10)                   
 80,000   0.0003    $0.03     $(0.10)  
 100,000   0.0002    $0.02     $(0.11)                 <<-- Need quantum hashing or $10K BTC to get here

Assumes the board costs ~$275, each chip is overclocked to 350MHash, draws 45W at overclock range, electricity costs $0.12 & BTC is $100.
Pages: « 1 ... 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 [88] 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 ... 226 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!