Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[nightengale]

I have no idea how the accounting would work out, but later batches should be refunded and those who would like to wait it out should be shifted to newer batches.

I personally just want a refund and to forget about Yifu.

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[rocks]

Agree with everyone agreeing on refunds, since Yifu is offering this it is obviously a good choice for all involved to take advantage of it,

What makes you think he'll actually refund anything?

Yifu has shown that he is a bully. He mocks and attacks people constantly in his messages, but then suddenly starts to communicate a little and hint at refunds when Zifur threatens FBI scale legal action over $15M.

Bullies back down if you confront them.

Steamboat should be friendly but firm with him, give him a choice:
a) Refunds batches xx, xx, xx by Sept 1. or
b) We (Zefir and I and other batch owners) will contact the FBI division the just put pirate in jail, and work with them to go after you to the full extent of the law.

[kslaughter]

I think a class action law suite would be the way to go.

Anyone here want to join, I have already discussed this with a lawyer. 

[professorY]

I'm also interested in refunds, if that actually comes to pass.

No point in holding on to a sinking ship.

I hate to admit it, but all of this ASIC BS (from 'companies' like Avalon and BFL, not steamboat or any of the other group buy organizers who were just trying to do a good thing for the community) has actually soured me on Bitcoin in general, and I'd wager I'm not the only one.

[logicbomb666]

Wow.

Just thinking of the logistics that steamboat would have to tackle if we end up getting refunds on some batches but not all makes me glad i'm not steamboat.  I think it is time to hear something from the man himself.  I will not be expecting any firm news or action plans, but would be nice to hear what's going through steamboats mind right now.

[adamthefishman]

How does this sound.

Since chip refund still leaves most people put of pocket for assembly etc.

We could seek a full refund AND chip delivery.

This way we will get back about 1/2 our money from the chip refund, AND still make a few pennies here and there on the mining.

Just a thought.

[cardcomm]

I think a class action law suite would be the way to go.

Anyone here want to join, I have already discussed this with a lawyer.  

Absolutely NO to a class action lawsuit! The only people to EVER get meaningful compensation in a class action are the lawyers and a small handful of people bringing the original lawsuit. NO CLASS ACTION!

However, I do agree with much of what has been posted in the last few posts. The profit is gone, especially with the ASCIMiner announcements. It IS time to force a refund under threat of legal action. Yifuk has mentioned issuing refunds while blasting the Bitcoin community for our "greed". If he dislikes our "greed", I wonder how well he'll like a federal indictment?

Frankly, I feel ashamed to be a part of this community right now. I mean really. How many times will the people here get screwed before they FILE CRIMINAL CHARGES against someone? IMO this is a pivotal time for our community. Will we continue to be easy picking for every bitcoin hardware company that wants to swing buy and screws us for a few hundred grand?

The members of this forum should be leaders in the community. Now is the time to take a stand that clearly shows we won't take being cheated by company after company!

As for Steamboat - well, I'm just gonna "assume" I'll see a pretty significant update posted by him when I get up in the morning. It's certainly well past due!

Edit: Oh, I just realized I didn't make it clear - I'm in batch 4, and YES, I DO want a REFUND to be requested!!!!!!!!!

[chsados]

Update: Endgame

With ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth less than their shipping costs.

Driven by this event, today I was flooded with refund requests that built up a queue of ~2000 chips. I do not expect any takers for this and it is realistic to assume that there will be no further refunds.


I am sad to admit that I do not believe in a fast and complete delivery of the remaining batches. This stopped to be a game the moment this group-buy alone funneled $500k to Avalon. Although we have only a small set of 'no BS rules', we still have a written commitment to deliver in time as part of the ToS. With so many community members taking a loss directly or indirectly through Avalon failing to meet their schedule, we (together with other customers) need to consider taking serious actions to end this tragedy.

At this stage our options are as follows:

• A. sit and wait
  That was my tactics so far, assuming that civilized and respectful behavior will ensure to get our chips as fast as possible. This in fact might have been the reason why so far our group-buy got more chips than others, at the same time with a delivery of one batch per month our last will arrive mid 2014 - ready for re-direction to the Bitcoin museum
• B. demand full refund
  The majority would be fine with getting their invested coins back and let this chapter pass into oblivion. According to Avolon's ToS, there will be no refunds. But if they really care about Bitcoin and its community and realize how much harm they caused to so many of us, they might consider playing fair and send us the coins back. This implies that you do not want your chips any more.
• C. negotiate for compensation
  While refunding all orders might exceed Avalon's capabilities, they might prefer offering a compensation in form of free chips or free upgrades to next-gen ones. This implies you would like continue dealing with Avalon.
• D. legal action
  Leave the polite arena and sue them into ground; make an example of them and put an end to the pre-order madness in Bitcoinland. This implies you are willing to throw more good money after the bad - for a very limited expectation. Your money would feed some poor lawyers and Avalon if needed will declare bankruptcy (they said they do not control the collected funds any more).

I personally will approach Avalon with options B and C for now and consider combining forces with other group-buy organizers for D if we do not hear back within a reasonable time-frame. If you have a different opinion you'd like to share, please do so either here or via PM.

Hey STEAMBOAT, take an example to this guy. Ffs.

I suggest you get in contact with him ASAP, to rally for option D.

Nobody wants these chips anymore.

Sit-and-wait time is over steamboat. The chips have become worthless before they were even shipped. Time to take some action. Get off your ass. Yes, I have my pitchforks god damn ready this time, to whomever is taking the profits on this botched deal nobody else is profiting from.

+ ∞^∞

[ScaryHash]

I highly doubt that since parts have been bought, that Steamboat can afford to give everybody refunds. There are fixed costs for this sort of thing.

So, we all took a risk, and Yifu screwed us.

And, I have over 200 chips on order in batches 1-5, so I have a lot at stake here.

The question is, how screwed are we and how can we mitigate this a bit?? Talking legal action is nice, but until you put up an additional $5k for a lawyer retainer, you're not gonna get $$ for a while. It will only cost more money, so that's out unless somebody wants to spend MORE money.

We may have to build some miners, assuming SOME chips are on their way, and try refunding the later batches. That would be the most likely and cost effective solution. I don't agree with people panicking and claiming the chips are actually worth less than their shipping cost. That's a panicked stretch of the imagination to me.

I'm sure Steamboat is working on options.

[BitCsByBit]

I highly doubt that since parts have been bought, that Steamboat can afford to give everybody refunds. There are fixed costs for this sort of thing.

So, we all took a risk, and Yifu screwed us.

And, I have over 200 chips on order in batches 1-5, so I have a lot at stake here.

The question is, how screwed are we and how can we mitigate this a bit?? Talking legal action is nice, but until you put up an additional $5k for a lawyer retainer, you're not gonna get $$ for a while. It will only cost more money, so that's out unless somebody wants to spend MORE money.

We may have to build some miners, assuming SOME chips are on their way, and try refunding the later batches. That would be the most likely and cost effective solution. I don't agree with people panicking and claiming the chips are actually worth less than their shipping cost. That's a panicked stretch of the imagination to me.

I'm sure Steamboat is working on options.

Even if you paid for the Full Assembly option, the assembly didn't yet take place and the worse case scenario would be to loose $35 per board which is the cost for the PCB and board related components.

Pricing

Chips:
Avalon ASIC chips may be ordered for BTC0.086. This fee is due immediately upon order placement.
Assembly:
The total price for assembly is $95. This includes $35 for the PCB and board related components, and $60 for assembly, to be paid in BTC.
Assembly and DIY Kit:
The DIY kit and fully assembled PCB are $123.5, to be paid in BTC.
Fully Assembled Unit:
The fully assembled unit, including all necessary hardware, is $133.5, to be paid in BTC.
Hosting:
Hosting fees include 8% of miner revenue production, plus $.06kw/h for electricity used. A setup fee of $15 per unit is necessary to help defray the initial infrastructure costs.
Testing:
Free with the purchase of a fully assembled unit.

[chsados]

I highly doubt that since parts have been bought, that Steamboat can afford to give everybody refunds. There are fixed costs for this sort of thing.

So, we all took a risk, and Yifu screwed us.

And, I have over 200 chips on order in batches 1-5, so I have a lot at stake here.

The question is, how screwed are we and how can we mitigate this a bit?? Talking legal action is nice, but until you put up an additional $5k for a lawyer retainer, you're not gonna get $$ for a while. It will only cost more money, so that's out unless somebody wants to spend MORE money.

We may have to build some miners, assuming SOME chips are on their way, and try refunding the later batches. That would be the most likely and cost effective solution. I don't agree with people panicking and claiming the chips are actually worth less than their shipping cost. That's a panicked stretch of the imagination to me.

I'm sure Steamboat is working on options.

We are only asking for refunds on what we payed for chips - steamboat actually made profit on the chip sales alone (10% each batch).

Steamboat you need to come forward, its been ~2 weeks and you have not said a single thing - specially after the recent posts of Yifu it is critical that you state what is on your mind.  

I have literally not said a single word since I placed my order 2013-06-08, patiently waiting to see how this all plays out.

I am in batch #5 and I want a refund.  We need to come up with an organized way on how this would work.  

I welcome anyone wanting a refund to start adding themselves to the google doc below, including: amount of chips, batch number, and your official transaction id.
Hopefully we can get enough users to report and get close to a full batch of chips.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au277u2T6_H3dGRjZkllM3R5cTdVXzZpd0h2Sm5Ub3c#gid=0

[BitCsByBit]

I highly doubt that since parts have been bought, that Steamboat can afford to give everybody refunds. There are fixed costs for this sort of thing.

So, we all took a risk, and Yifu screwed us.

And, I have over 200 chips on order in batches 1-5, so I have a lot at stake here.

The question is, how screwed are we and how can we mitigate this a bit?? Talking legal action is nice, but until you put up an additional $5k for a lawyer retainer, you're not gonna get $$ for a while. It will only cost more money, so that's out unless somebody wants to spend MORE money.

We may have to build some miners, assuming SOME chips are on their way, and try refunding the later batches. That would be the most likely and cost effective solution. I don't agree with people panicking and claiming the chips are actually worth less than their shipping cost. That's a panicked stretch of the imagination to me.

I'm sure Steamboat is working on options.

We are only asking for refunds on what we payed for chips - steamboat actually made profit on the chip sales alone (10% each batch).

Steamboat you need to come forward, its been ~2 weeks and you have not said a single thing - specially after the recent posts of Yifu it is critical that you state what is on your mind.  

I have literally not said a single word since I placed my order 2013-06-08, patiently waiting to see how this all plays out.

I am in batch #5 and I want a refund.  We need to come up with an organized way on how this would work.  

I welcome anyone wanting a refund to start adding themselves to the google doc below, including: amount of chips, batch number, and your official transaction id.
Hopefully we can get enough users to report and get close to a full batch of chips.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au277u2T6_H3dHBpYWxKRVpDMmVBVDlXaW9MNUFialE&usp=sharing

it's locked.

[rocks]

I think a class action law suite would be the way to go.

Anyone here want to join, I have already discussed this with a lawyer.  

Absolutely NO to a class action lawsuit! The only people to EVER get meaningful compensation in a class action are the lawyers and a small handful of people bringing the original lawsuit. NO CLASS ACTION!

However, I do agree with much of what has been posted in the last few posts. The profit is gone, especially with the ASCIMiner announcements. It IS time to force a refund under threat of legal action. Yifuk has mentioned issuing refunds while blasting the Bitcoin community for our "greed". If he dislikes our "greed", I wonder how well he'll like a federal indictment?

^^ This ^^

The class action path only generates costs and does not recover anything for us.

Criminal charges are the way to go, the appropriate government division that handles this type of crime will pursue and litigate the case. This is what happened with pirate for those that followed.

Yes there is no recovery with the criminal path, but if Yifu gets an appropriate judgement deserving from a $8M scam, then I'll be satisfied.

[jesse11]

Guys & Gals, Steamboat maybe making our Miners right now, Be Calm.

[nightengale]

Guys & Gals, Steamboat maybe making our Miners right now, Be Calm.

Now that's some wishful thinking.

The class action path only generates costs and does not recover anything for us.

Criminal charges are the way to go, the appropriate government division that handles this type of crime will pursue and litigate the case. This is what happened with pirate for those that followed.

Yes there is no recovery with the criminal path, but if Yifu gets an appropriate judgement deserving from a $8M scam, then I'll be satisfied.

There actually can be recovery as a part of criminal prosecution -- a defendant can be ordered to pay restitution when deemed appropriate by the court.

[chsados]

I highly doubt that since parts have been bought, that Steamboat can afford to give everybody refunds. There are fixed costs for this sort of thing.

So, we all took a risk, and Yifu screwed us.

And, I have over 200 chips on order in batches 1-5, so I have a lot at stake here.

The question is, how screwed are we and how can we mitigate this a bit?? Talking legal action is nice, but until you put up an additional $5k for a lawyer retainer, you're not gonna get $$ for a while. It will only cost more money, so that's out unless somebody wants to spend MORE money.

We may have to build some miners, assuming SOME chips are on their way, and try refunding the later batches. That would be the most likely and cost effective solution. I don't agree with people panicking and claiming the chips are actually worth less than their shipping cost. That's a panicked stretch of the imagination to me.

I'm sure Steamboat is working on options.

We are only asking for refunds on what we payed for chips - steamboat actually made profit on the chip sales alone (10% each batch).

Steamboat you need to come forward, its been ~2 weeks and you have not said a single thing - specially after the recent posts of Yifu it is critical that you state what is on your mind.  

I have literally not said a single word since I placed my order 2013-06-08, patiently waiting to see how this all plays out.

I am in batch #5 and I want a refund.  We need to come up with an organized way on how this would work.  

I welcome anyone wanting a refund to start adding themselves to the google doc below, including: amount of chips, batch number, and your official transaction id.
Hopefully we can get enough users to report and get close to a full batch of chips.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au277u2T6_H3dHBpYWxKRVpDMmVBVDlXaW9MNUFialE&usp=sharing

it's locked.

Fixed, sorry about that

[BitCsByBit]

Guys & Gals, Steamboat maybe making our Miners right now, Be Calm.

He could be making miners for the private chip buyers.

[Bicknellski]

Agree with everyone agreeing on refunds, since Yifu is offering this it is obviously a good choice for all involved to take advantage of it,

What makes you think he'll actually refund anything?

Yifu has shown that he is a bully. He mocks and attacks people constantly in his messages, but then suddenly starts to communicate a little and hint at refunds when Zifur threatens FBI scale legal action over $15M.

Bullies back down if you confront them.

Steamboat should be friendly but firm with him, give him a choice:
a) Refunds batches xx, xx, xx by Sept 1. or
b) We (Zefir and I and other batch owners) will contact the FBI division the just put pirate in jail, and work with them to go after you to the full extent of the law.

Refunds for all... who have asked.

[cpengr]

By trying(!) to get involved in Bitcoin mining, there are two things in particular I've been hoping for: (1) that the Bitcoin/mining community would be an example of a large group of technically-minded people working together to accomplish something great*; and (2) that I'd make some money.

As to (2)--making money--I don't expect to get rich quick--or at all, really. But I did not contribute funds to this venture as a charity case, intending to lose it all. I understand there are risks, and I accepted most of them. However, I do not consider the current situation a risk that we should have had to account for, as I explained here.

Regarding (1): succeeding as a community with this great Bitcoin (mining) experiment requires that we don't repeatedly allow ourselves to be screwed by liars, cheaters, incompetents, malfeasants, and the like. Avalon's failure to deliver anywhere close to their "no BS" 9-10 week stated time frame, and their lack of good faith effort to provide adequate explanation for the delays--with proof--has me thinking that they are one or more of these things.

Judging by this shitstorm, it looks to me like Yifu won't do anything to make things right without pressure being applied. So, how do we band together, and what do we want?

IMO, any of the following would be acceptable:

1. Chips delivered (by some TBD deadline), plus financial compensation (USD or BTC).
2. Full chip refund, plus additional financial compensation (USD or BTC). Steamboat does whatever he can to provide a (partial) refund for assembly/PCBs.
3. (1) for some batches, and (2) for others.
4. A lawsuit that results in Avalon paying financial restitution, going out of business, and Avalon stakeholders are personally penalized for unfair dealings**.
5. Some combination of these.

For solution 4, I could live with spending more money (to pay for a lawyer), on top of what we've already spent/lost here, if it serves as a deterrent to undesirable would-be mining equipment vendors. This would be a benefit to the community in the long run. The lawsuit may or may not result in adequate compensation for our losses due to Avalon's failures.

Steamboat, I hope you're at least brainstorming with zefir on these things.


* I hope we'll "accomplish something great", by enabling Bitcoin to thrive--with all its benefits and value for convenience and commerce, and as an experiment of a deflationary currency with a hard supply limit.

** "Best case" scenario of the "unfair dealings" is that they have some legitimate explanation for it all, but made no effort to communicate verifiable truth to us.

[cpengr]

[snip]

We are only asking for refunds on what we payed for chips - steamboat actually made profit on the chip sales alone (10% each batch).

[snip]

I am in batch #5 and I want a refund.  We need to come up with an organized way on how this would work.  

I welcome anyone wanting a refund to start adding themselves to the google doc below, including: amount of chips, batch number, and your official transaction id.
Hopefully we can get enough users to report and get close to a full batch of chips.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au277u2T6_H3dHBpYWxKRVpDMmVBVDlXaW9MNUFialE&usp=sharing

it's locked.

Fixed, sorry about that

There are a lot of moving parts here. Personally, I'd want to hear from steamboat on what our options are, especially as it relates to what we've already paid for assembly/shipping--before I'd commit to asking for a chip refund.