Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[chadtn]

I am in batch 6 and never received an e-mail about a refund.

I'm a little confused about what is happening right now.  At this point are there any plans to manufacture functioning 110nm gen I Avalon based Fusion 16's with chips ordered through Steamboat's group buy, or is the original Fusion 16 assembly only for people supplying their own gen 1 Avalon chips, that paid for assembly only?  I have purchased 32 batch 6 chips through the group buy and assembly for two fully tested units.

If I read it correctly it sounds like I have four options:

Option 1:  If I do nothing at this point, am I to assume that all Avalon gen 1 chip orders are going to be refunded to Steamboat, who will then use those funds to proceed with a different chip design?  This next chip may or may not be gen 2 55nm Avalon chips purchased at a reduced rate?  If gen 2 55nm Avalon chips are chosen this option may entail additional charges due to the unknown price, unknown amount of the discount, and unknown level of rework required for board design.

Option 2:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I then wait for a new chip to be selected and the K16 board to be retrofitted.  I will then have to purchase the new chips and my assembly payment will be credited towards a renegotiated per unit rate.

Option 3:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I can then receive a Fusion 16 that is complete besides the lack of functioning chips.

Option 4:  I request a complete refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price and 25% of assembly price.

If my above assumptions are generally true, I would probably favor option 1.  We have all been led to believe the gen 2 Avalon chip would require the least amount of rework.  I don't really care about what is under the hood as long as I receive a functioning piece of hardware that has a fair chance of breaking even in the short run.  This is just a fun hobby for me.  I didn't bet the farm on a get rich quick scheme.  If I can break even after a year of mining I'll be happy.  heh..

Chad

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[yamancool63]

I am in batch 6 and never received an e-mail about a refund.

I'm a little confused about what is happening right now.  At this point are there any plans to manufacture functioning 110nm gen I Avalon based Fusion 16's with chips ordered through Steamboat's group buy, or is the original Fusion 16 assembly only for people supplying their own gen 1 Avalon chips, that paid for assembly only?  I have purchased 32 batch 6 chips through the group buy and assembly for two fully tested units.

If I read it correctly it sounds like I have four options:

Option 1:  If I do nothing at this point, am I to assume that all Avalon gen 1 chip orders are going to be refunded to Steamboat, who will then use those funds to proceed with a different chip design?  This next chip may or may not be gen 2 55nm Avalon chips purchased at a reduced rate?  If gen 2 55nm Avalon chips are chosen this option may entail additional charges due to the unknown price, unknown amount of the discount, and unknown level of rework required for board design.

Option 2:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I then wait for a new chip to be selected and the K16 board to be retrofitted.  I will then have to purchase the new chips and my assembly payment will be credited towards a renegotiated per unit rate.

Option 3:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I can then receive a Fusion 16 that is complete besides the lack of functioning chips.

Option 4:  I request a complete refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price and 25% of assembly price.

If my above assumptions are generally true, I would probably favor option 1.  We have all been led to believe the gen 2 Avalon chip would require the least amount of rework.  I don't really care about what is under the hood as long as I receive a functioning piece of hardware that has a fair chance of breaking even in the short run.  This is just a fun hobby for me.  I didn't bet the farm on a get rich quick scheme.  If I can break even after a year of mining I'll be happy.  heh..

Chad

If you do nothing, You will be moved into an earlier batch (since your batch has been refunded) and you will eventually get a working miner with Gen1 Avalon chips.

[evilscoop]

and im in batch 1 so no point in asking for a refund...chances of batch 1's getting it are about 0.1%

[professorY]

and im in batch 1 so no point in asking for a refund...chances of batch 1's getting it are about 0.1%

Not everyone in later batches wants a refund. I was under the (hopefully correct) impression that people from earlier batches could be included in the 10,000 chips required for each refunded batch.

[bigbeninlondon]

Option 1:  If I do nothing at this point, am I to assume that all Avalon gen 1 chip orders are going to be refunded to Steamboat, who will then use those funds to proceed with a different chip design?  This next chip may or may not be gen 2 55nm Avalon chips purchased at a reduced rate?  If gen 2 55nm Avalon chips are chosen this option may entail additional charges due to the unknown price, unknown amount of the discount, and unknown level of rework required for board design.

If you do nothing at this point, you may be moved to an earlier batch, taking the place of others that wanted refunds.  Your miner will be processed using 110nm chips and sent to you as planned.  No one is being forced to take a refund or wait for gen2 chips.

Option 2:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I then wait for a new chip to be selected and the K16 board to be retrofitted.  I will then have to purchase the new chips and my assembly payment will be credited towards a renegotiated per unit rate.

Appears accurate

Option 3:  I request a chip refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price.  I can then receive a Fusion 16 that is complete besides the lack of functioning chips.

I believe this is true but I don't know if steamboat has addressed assembly only with no chip purchases.

Option 4:  I request a complete refund from Steamboat for 95% of the BTC purchase price and 25% of assembly price.

You would also receive the parts that you paid for when you paid for assembly.  The idea is you could resell them and potentially recoup some additional investment.

[powpow]

If a new chip is found to be useable on a modified k16 unit, would there be a further refund on parts which were purchased for this group buy, or a credit to those of us that stay the course?

Yeah, kind of insane that there is as steamboat said a "TON" of parts -- that apparently he is keeping, that you paid for.

[bigbeninlondon]

If a new chip is found to be useable on a modified k16 unit, would there be a further refund on parts which were purchased for this group buy, or a credit to those of us that stay the course?

Yeah, kind of insane that there is as steamboat said a "TON" of parts -- that apparently he is keeping, that you paid for.

I don't think this is the case.  I believe if you get the 25% refund, the parts will also be sent to you.

those customers which purchased assembly will have the option of receiving the components purchased for production of the original units if they so choose.

[lithiumfinn]

Is there any way to determine whether our refund form was submitted correctly with the signed message... or... do we just blindly wait for a refund and hope it appears in our wallets?

Yeah this is what I'm wondering about too.

[powpow]

If a new chip is found to be useable on a modified k16 unit, would there be a further refund on parts which were purchased for this group buy, or a credit to those of us that stay the course?

Yeah, kind of insane that there is as steamboat said a "TON" of parts -- that apparently he is keeping, that you paid for.

I don't think this is the case.  I believe if you get the 25% refund, the parts will also be sent to you.

those customers which purchased assembly will have the option of receiving the components purchased for production of the original units if they so choose.

That's only if they aren't able to reuse the parts in another miner...

[xjack]

Refund requested for Batch 6 chips.

Somewhat interested in keeping assembly for future gen chips, or another chip brand, etc...

[bigbeninlondon]

That's only if they aren't able to reuse the parts in another miner...

Read below; look for my emphasis

In the event we are successful in redesigning the board, and can negotiate a fair and competitive price for the chips to be used with a verifiable delivery date, all customers who purchased assembly will be credited the full value of the components reused in producing the new units, in addition to a heavily discounted rate for the balance. We do not currently have any information regarding the final cost of the redesigned unit, which manufacturer’s chip the design will be based on, performance data, or availability at this time.

In the event we are unable to produce a redesigned unit, those customers which purchased assembly will have the option of receiving the components purchased for production of the original units if they so choose.

So:

Steamboat ends up pursuing a second gen board:
You choose to stick it out: you are credited with the full cost of parts and a heavy discount on any additional work that needs done
You choose not to stick it out: you will be given a 25% refund NOW, plus once boards are produced, a full credit for all of your parts, or the actual parts shipped to you.

Steamboat ends up NOT pursuing a second gen board:
You receive 25% refund from assembly plus parts shipped to you.


That's the way I read it.

[sprint347]

Thanks for the belated reply.

I'm walking from this and will take my chip/freight/assembly/parts refund as presented in the email.

Out of principle I want nothing to do with Avalon, regardless of what product they offer in the future.

[Xian01]

I hope I'm really wrong, but I have an awful feeling in my gut like we may see October Bitfury shipments before these K16's materialize; through no fault of Steamboat, but for lack of 110nm chip deliveries.

What's taking so long to ship out those 400,000 chips Yifu is sitting on ?

[Galli]

Why are we not pursing a full refund for all batches? It's clear this deal is dead,why not cut our losses and get the f!@# out of this awful situation?

Steamboat,

Demand a full refund for all batches and hold the bitcoin in escrow while the refund process is cleared up.  Any customer who doesn't submit a refund request within 12-months from now should lose their coins.  Keeping the option open for delivery of chips does not benefit anyone but Yifu and yourself!!!!

[eroxors]

Steamboat,
Is there a way to paint over or cover up the Avalon logo on the K16s? I'm not sure I'll be able to look at the A without vomiting.

Also, will the possibility of utilizing 2 or 3 bank K16s (8 or 12 chips, respectively) be entertained? thereby letting K16 owners refund a quarter or half of their chips while having something tangible to recoup some losses. Since 2-bank K16s are proven to work and chips may arrive at any moment, a decision on this now would be helpful for batch 1 customers.

Thanks for you hard work. I wish it worked out better than this for all of our sake. Yifu is a fucking clown.

[bigbeninlondon]

Why are we not pursing a full refund for all batches? It's clear this deal is dead,why not cut our losses and get the f!@# out of this awful situation?

Steamboat,

Demand a full refund for all batches and hold the bitcoin in escrow while the refund process is cleared up.  Any customer who doesn't submit a refund request within 12-months from now should lose their coins.  Keeping the option open for delivery of chips does not benefit anyone but Yifu and yourself!!!!

Uh, because some people still want to mine with them.

[bystander]

Chip refunds:
We have requested and received refunds for Batches 5 and 6. We have also processed and verified those orders which were submitted correctly on the form. The chip refund process has been delayed due to a large number of requests which have failed verification, duplicate requests, and phishing attempts. The bitcointalk forum thread will be updated with instructions for successfully submitting a signed message. We will be sending out refunds over the next few days, and will continue to process any future chip refunds requests.

Appreciate the updates, I think some of the duplicate requests may have stemmed from users with a different sending address for a subsequent chip order in the same batch. On the refund form, it allowed for different transaction IDs, but one single sending address (which makes sense since it needs to be signed), so an additional signed form was sent.

Thank you for coming through for the community, will be looking forward to updated instructions.

[alfabitcoin]

This 25% refund offer is wrong. What SMT line charged you all 60$ per boards? They have parts and pcb from 35$ what are not refundable. Are you saying you are not making profit from it? From assambly you have at least 30$ profit. From heatsink you have at least 15$. What those who did not ordered heatsink has with freight charges and why you are mitigate those cost on us?
When all this GB started steamboat searched heatsink supplier and willing to pay under 6$ per heatsink, if you include fun around 6$ you got 12$. He charge $30. This is open source project,you have not working board, and what you paid( as you say) for all the charges you speak in update, is not made by us and it should no be paid from our money.
Assambly(60$) is not done,period. You should and can refund those in full. Otherwise is against FTC rule and US laws!
All other assambly providers offer at least 50% (burnin for the cost for full board + 25% when he resold some parts).
Bitmine offer 80% for all batches less batch1 or credit for their future preoders
This is just wrong on so many levels. You are doing exactly what I thought, will making profit out of our lose! Shame!

Assambly house can not take even reservation fee for klondike assambly without exact delivery date! PCB +part for design what is still not in working order! Give me a break! What has licencig fee has to do with us, its open source project what is not finsihed! You are making a fool out of lot of people - its your good name on the stake, if you care, you would not pool such unfair policy. I had a quote in Germany for 30$ assambly, dont isult me with such sweetalk excuses and justifications.

I wonder how you are not able to process chip refund like others can and not able to communicate with such permium service we paid a long time ago?? All your sweetalk turn my stomach!

There is a difference of those who paid for assambly only (60+35) vs those who paid full assambly with heatsink.
I did not paid for heatsink, never wanted them and why I need to pay for those who has?
Need to separate those services!
35$ pcb and parts 0% refundable
assambly only ($60) at least 50% refund (and that is too low, should be at least 80%)
Heatsink can be used for future project and resold.
Hosting and shipping - 100% refund like you comited.

Privide some proof that you have paid 95$ (with parts) to assambly house and that SMT line denie you refund for the work what is not done!
And prove all other justification you made, if you can!
You are getting paid 75% of assambly and 100% for PCB and parts for nothing in return! How that is an fair for your buyers?

[ionstorm]

anyone in batch 1 & 2 still considering refunds?  I got 64 chips in batch 1 and 64 in batch 2 both with full assembly.  Considering a refund, not sure if we can ROI, anyone got some good estimates?

[jml25]

Appreciate the updates, I think some of the duplicate requests may have stemmed from users with a different sending address for a subsequent chip order in the same batch. On the refund form, it allowed for different transaction IDs, but one single sending address (which makes sense since it needs to be signed), so an additional signed form was sent.

Thank you for coming through for the community, will be looking forward to updated instructions.

If you know how to sign a message then you don't need additional instructions. There's a few threads around that show how to do it (Canary's group buys for example iirc). My guess would be that some people missed the part in the form (or simply forgot) to take the quotes ouy of the message contents to be signed. If the message is off or different by even one character, the signature won't match and it could just as easily have come from a different wallet.

SB: I appreciate how you've handled this whole buy, and am thankful that you've tried to work with Yifu and had everything ready to go for chips. Too bad the other end of that agreement wasn't met by the chip supplier I will be requesting a refund and be watching for another buy in the future (hopefully not using avalon chips).