[ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development

[Beave162]

ok - blocked an account, disabled registration   but I cannot contact him via email - my emails are being bounced...

Thank you, feeleep. If a new user wants to create an account, can they email you or send you a private message on here?

of course they can

Maybe post that message on the homepage? I think that would be perfect.

[feeleep]

ok - blocked an account, disabled registration   but I cannot contact him via email - my emails are being bounced...

Thank you, feeleep. If a new user wants to create an account, can they email you or send you a private message on here?

of course they can

Maybe post that message on the homepage? I think that would be perfect.

OK - just need to sort out locked server (again)

[fredeq]

Hey, just came around to check if we hit 17 already?

[feeleep]

pool is up again with filtering out all requests from botnet. Lets hope it will work for a while...

[Thirtybird]

Hey, just came around to check if we hit 17 already?

Not yet - check back in about 9.5 hours (6:54 PM EST, 10:54 PM UTC)

[Beave162]

[fredeq]

I cant figure a working config for 750ti or 280x.

Cudaminer throws some cuda errors on -L 16, and my 280x goes to black screen every time I try to use lg of 16 (HW at 8 ).

Is lookup gap of 16 not to be used, what am I missing?

[caston]

I'm interested in hearing how you feel the new N factor affects mining profitability.

Is it worthwhile investing in high CPUs with over a lot of L1 and L2 cache or should one just buy more YAC?

[Thirtybird]

I'm interested in hearing how you feel the new N factor affects mining profitability.

Is it worthwhile investing in high CPUs with over a lot of L1 and L2 cache or should one just buy more YAC?

Well, at this point, I think we're at the tipping point between CPUs and GPUs.  4GB R7 240 is only marginally faster than my laptop i7 3610.  With that said though, the GPUs still pull less power and I can have 4-6 of them in one machine vs. 1 CPU.  CPU mining is a real possibility again if that's all you've got. 

I wouldn't recommend older CPUs as they are lacking in efficiency so they will be much slower while still pulling more power (my laptop i7 3610 is 157% faster then my desktop i5 2500k), but the miner requires almost no configuration to use, so will be an easy jump-on point for inexperienced or non-technical people.

[Beave162]

The YAC network is under attack.

A more accurate description is that someone seems to be trying to dominate the PoW side of things at the expense of the only known, working pool left. Even when a large amount of hash/s is pointed at the pool, the network hashrate increases in accordance--seemingly just enough to cause a significant number of orphans.

The orphan rate of coinmine.pl is over 38% over the last 4 weeks! And we are in danger of it being shutdown for good!
It was brought up earlier, but it has gotten out of hand at this point after the NFactor change. Are there any ideas other than an 'old-fashion' hashpower fight or a fork?

[OrientA]

Well, at this point, I think we're at the tipping point between CPUs and GPUs.  4GB R7 240 is only marginally faster than my laptop i7 3610.  With that said though, the GPUs still pull less power and I can have 4-6 of them in one machine vs. 1 CPU.  CPU mining is a real possibility again if that's all you've got. 

I wouldn't recommend older CPUs as they are lacking in efficiency so they will be much slower while still pulling more power (my laptop i7 3610 is 157% faster then my desktop i5 2500k), but the miner requires almost no configuration to use, so will be an easy jump-on point for inexperienced or non-technical people.

So botnet will come to mine this coin soon?

[birdvox]

The YAC network is under attack.

A more accurate description is that someone seems to be trying to dominate the PoW side of things at the expense of the only known, working pool left. Even when a large amount of hash/s is pointed at the pool, the network hashrate increases in accordance--seemingly just enough to cause a significant number of orphans.

The orphan rate of coinmine.pl is over 38% over the last 4 weeks! And we are in danger of it being shutdown for good!
It was brought up earlier, but it has gotten out of hand at this point after the NFactor change. Are there any ideas other than an 'old-fashion' hashpower fight or a fork?

The block reward should be increasing along with hashrate.  I assume the orphaning takes place to limit the reward decrease.
With block reward increasing, this will become an interesting coin for many miners, and the 51% situation should disappear.

... my 2 bits!

[OrientA]

Increase the block time to reduce orphans? YACoin is not widely used, it is still in distribution stage.

[Beave162]

Increase the block time to reduce orphans? YACoin is not widely used, it is still in distribution stage.

In regards to increasing the blocktime...

1) First and foremost, it would require a fork. The idea of a fork scares me. I think before taking such action, the change needs to be carefully considered and dissected and needs to have overwhelming support from the coin's stakeholders. With that said, "it is still in distribution stage," is a valid point. And a fork to secure a network security issue is different than a fork used to attempt to manipulate value. Keep in mind other things should be adjusted in accordance with the block time.

2) In terms of the basic economics of transactions, you can't get more instant than Bitcoin. The idea that shorter block times translates to a more practical form of exchange often stems from childish optimism. Confirming a transaction and making a transaction are quite different. There is something to be said of the 'precision' of having 1 confirmation at say 2 minutes vs 0 confirmations at 8 minutes. That concept still doesn't make sense though for 'point of sale' transactions, ie buying a coffee.

3) From a mining perspective, it is discouraging to join a smaller pool when the block times are large--as in the case with Bitcoin. There doesn't seem to be an orphan problem, but the variance in the rewards are so large that it almost defeats the purpose of a pool, discouraging decentralization of the pools. I like the shorter block times in that I can pretty much expect the same daily payout even a pool with say 10% of the total network hashrate.

4) It would be nice for the network security and technical side of things to be addressed by someone much smarter than me. The orphan problem seems like it could be helped by increasing the block time. I have read 2 minutes is a good target. 2 minutes allows for even the slowest modem connection to have transactions confirmed. However, from what I understand with YAC, eventually PoS *should* force the target time to about 2 minutes for PoW eventually... someone correct me if I'm wrong.

What we are seeing now in the YAC network seems to be one entity that is turning on a botnet around midnight PST (for a period of about 8 hours) and pointing just enough hashpower to orphan most blocks in the only known working pool. It is coming at so much power that the target time is nearly halved to 30 seconds. This *person* does not appear to be selling off YACs at a significant amount looking at the volume, exchanges. In fact, since he has started, the price has gone up quite a bit. The block reward depends on the difficulty which depends on the hashrate, so there is that as well.

There is the argument along the lines of 'adversity makes us stronger'. In other terms, because the network CAN fail, it WON'T fail, and the price/marketcap correlates to, and benefits from, that paradigm. If you think about it, you can now produce 100 hash/s at less than 20W. I'm willing to bet 100 khash/s at coinmine.pl will be more than enough to completely eradicate the orphan problem (could be wrong). That would equate to 20,000W... I'm pretty sure WindMaster alone has much more than that capacity. I feel like an 'arms race' challenge has presented itself, and it just takes a couple of people to accept that challenge.

Just some of my thoughts...

[birdvox]

Lets see 20KWh x 24 hour is what?  $40-70 a day  depending where you live
With 100KH you would only get half the blocks say 50,000 YAC a day. that's .25 btc= $65
Barely covers the electricity costs. Not to mention other costs.
The mysterious entity would still get half the blocks, if not more. Why are you certain it's a botnet? Could be anything. Anyone has the interest to keep difficulty as low as possible, to maximize profits. Due to difficulty, and on top of that reward decrease with difficulty. So when mining you always want to keep costs low, otherwise you end up on a minus.

I believe miners mine and sell rather quickly. They have costs to cover, they don't see it as an investment.
So yes, without changing the reward (to raise along with difficulty), you can still do something about it today. PUMP. buy buy buy, if the price rises, more miners will join in.
Like what happened when it reached 0.000005, people were suddenly interested, but faced this situation.

And yes, it's interesting, since the orphaning started taking place, the price is rising. Somehow this is turning out to be something good for the coin. Whoever is doing it knows what he's doing.
BTW, volume is always above 1BTC a day, sometimes even 5-7, so I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the miner isn't dumping. 100k YAC is only 0.5. Everyday we have more volume.

[feeleep]

Hi,

I was checking my pool settings and everything seems to be OK. I even run 3 nodes to make sure I will propagate blocks quickly. Unfortunately it does not help. There is also one more point - orphans does not appear one - two at the same time - if we have big hashrate we can find even 100 blocks and those 100 blocks are valid until some time and suddenly all of them are orphaned. This may be even deeper as I am constantly loosing YACs every day. I am not an expert but for me it looks like either there is an attack or something wrong with network itself.

If my pool will be loosing yac for the next week I will be forced to close the pool...

feeleep

[shaan.is.one]

YaCoin really an alternative currency for development....

[Beave162]

Lets see 20KWh x 24 hour is what?  $40-70 a day  depending where you live
With 100KH you would only get half the blocks say 50,000 YAC a day. that's .25 btc= $65
Barely covers the electricity costs. Not to mention other costs.

Yes "depending where you live" being a key phrase. I did ignore other costs to simplify things. But your point is that it would be most cost effective to simply buy YAC at these prices, which might go to your later comments:

And yes, it's interesting, since the orphaning started taking place, the price is rising. Somehow this is turning out to be something good for the coin. Whoever is doing it knows what he's doing.

However, we are talking about for the purpose of network security and an assumption that doing so will raise the price, long-term especially.

The mysterious entity would still get half the blocks, if not more. Why are you certain it's a botnet? Could be anything. Anyone has the interest to keep difficulty as low as possible, to maximize profits. Due to difficulty, and on top of that reward decrease with difficulty. So when mining you always want to keep costs low, otherwise you end up on a minus.

My apologies, I am not certain it is a botnet. It might be beneficial to assume so as I imagine that would be worst-case scenario. The important point is that it has a lot of hashing power.

I believe miners mine and sell rather quickly. They have costs to cover, they don't see it as an investment.

I think you need to qualify your belief. I can tell you I am a miner, and I do not sell YAC at all.

So yes, without changing the reward (to raise along with difficulty), you can still do something about it today. PUMP. buy buy buy, if the price rises, more miners will join in.
Like what happened when it reached 0.000005, people were suddenly interested, but faced this situation.

You are suggesting the reward structure basically be the inverse of what it is now? As difficulty goes up, you suggest block rewards INCREASE as opposed to DECREASE. I imagine you would keep a limit per block? If so, what would happen once that limit is reached? Anyway, I think that would be an experiment for a new coin to try.

BTW, volume is always above 1BTC a day, sometimes even 5-7, so I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the miner isn't dumping. 100k YAC is only 0.5. Everyday we have more volume.

Yes, he could be playing with the prices around the current level. I don't see massive, regular sell-offs every day on the known exchanges as you would expect for a typical 'mine-and-dumper'. By the way, you are going to have more total volume because YAC is traded against BTC, CNY, LTC, XRP.

[birdvox]

My apologies, I am not certain it is a botnet. It might be beneficial to assume so as I imagine that would be worst-case scenario. The important point is that it has a lot of hashing power.

how is that a worst case scenario? it just happens to be illegal. otherwise it's a miner like every other miners. botnet costs too, they don't grow in trees. being a cpu coin, botnets are to be expected.
in fact its actually good that its illegal, as in against the government. we all are more or less against the government, right?

I think you need to qualify your belief. I can tell you I am a miner, and I do not sell YAC at all.

lol, you might be of more concern than a botnet. does your hashpower grow on trees?

You are suggesting the reward structure basically be the inverse of what it is now? As difficulty goes up, you suggest block rewards INCREASE as opposed to DECREASE. I imagine you would keep a limit per block? If so, what would happen once that limit is reached? Anyway, I think that would be an experiment for a new coin to try.

Yes, increase, I don't think there should be a limit. It would limit itself once the hashrate is saturated. Can't have infinite hash, right? And then you get tons of security. Price might as well go up.
You suggested a fork, that's why I suggested this. Give money to the miners, soon our entity would be overrun.
The goal of a cpu coin is to get millions of home users mining it. Then it's something completely undefeatable. But it obviously needs the right rewards.

Yes, he could be playing with the prices around the current level. I don't see massive, regular sell-offs every day on the known exchanges as you would expect for a typical 'mine-and-dumper'. By the way, you are going to have more total volume because YAC is traded against BTC, CNY, LTC, XRP.

been looking on coinmarketcap really, so that adds everything up.

bottom line the way I see it, the security problem is not that somebody has over 51% of the hash. that's only the manifestation.
the problem is that the rewards don't attract miners. as soon as diff goes up, it's totally unprofitable. block reward increase, proportional to difficulty, should certainly take care of that.
or if you are too concerned about coin value. pump i guess. if you mine and hold, you might as well buy. get the price up and it will bring bigger profits and therefore more miners.

Edit: Good idea actually. Why don't we make a clone with increasing rewards instead of decreasing?

[fredeq]

Would be good to have some pools running, I dont want to see chacha abandoned