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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 875472 times)
fenwick
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January 07, 2014, 03:06:04 AM
 #6381

Hey guys, I've gone ahead and created a thread for documenting the various versions of their ToS, which should help customers provide their lawyers with copies of the particular ToS they agreed to:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402364

Please let me know if there's already a resource like this.

There is.

http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale
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MrTeal
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January 07, 2014, 03:07:12 AM
 #6382

Hi all.

 * Anybody not in Batch 1, don't read this.
 * Anybody in Batch 1 who believes that HashFast is going to do the right thing voluntary, without a gentle nudge from us, don't read this.
 * Anybody in Batch 1 who believes that the right way to deal with HashFast is to open more communication channels with them, don't read this.

For the rest of you:

I have found a lawyer who is willing to take our case, and help us get our BTC back, if we can cooperate.)

The name is Ray E. Gallo.

Please make up your minds about him; I think he is great. (85% winning percentage, and specialized in class and mass actions alleging large scale fraud.)

Some data:

http://gallo-law.com/attorneys/gallo.html
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/94901-ca-ray-gallo-291467.html
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/94901-ca-ray-gallo-291467/reviews.html    <= reviews
http://www.linkedin.com/in/raygallo

(Now I let you experienced Google detectives jump on him.)

  * * *

After exchanging around 100 mails with me, and analyzing all the documents and evidence with his team, he thinks we can probably win this case for Batch 1 customers who have paid in BTC. (But of course there is no guarantee.)

As you all know, class action is forbidden by the (ever-changing) Terms of Service, but (by the nature of thing) "mass action" is not, and can not be.
So we can proceed in a “mass” basis: the same attorney working with multiple clients simultaneously.

This is like a class case in that it will give us some leverage by aggregating claims so that we can do more work on the matter.
It’s different in that they can make us try (arbitrate) every case.
(Which means that individual cases might end with success or failure independently of each other, but we can optionally pool the results, if we want to reach a fair distribution at the end.)

  * * *

Since the legal costs are (usually) pretty high, this might well be the only way to go for small customers like me, who have only bought 1 or 2 units.
(It would not make any economic sense to hire a such a strong lawyer on my own, but together, we might be able to make it.)

Ray Gallo is ready to take the case on a contingent basis, so we don't have to pay up-front; his fee comes down from the money recovered from HashFast, if we win.

The key to make this work is to collect enough participants.
He said that he is willing to take the case if there are at least around 30 Baby Jet worth of customers.



Now the question is, how many of you would you willing to participate in such an arrangement? I have 1 BJ.

DISCLAIMER: I know others are also talking to other lawyers, too. I'm not saying that everybody should stop what they are doing and stop proceeding along those lines; I
am just saying that this looks like a very good opportunity to me.

Anybody who is interested, please contact him directly via his own page, which I have linked above.

The deadline is this Friday. We have to collect enough customers by then.

Best wishes:

    fenwick
What kind of fees would be charged on the refund amount (should it happen) if the 30 BabyJet number is reached?
ryepdx
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January 07, 2014, 03:09:37 AM
 #6383

Hey guys, I've gone ahead and created a thread for documenting the various versions of their ToS, which should help customers provide their lawyers with copies of the particular ToS they agreed to:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402364

Please let me know if there's already a resource like this.

There is.

http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale

Ah, so there is. Thanks for that! :-)
fenwick
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January 07, 2014, 03:19:12 AM
 #6384

What kind of fees would be charged on the refund amount (should it happen) if the 30 BabyJet number is reached?

I think the usual amount is 25% - 50%. His offer is within that range, too.
It would be better if you contacted him directly about the specifics.
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January 07, 2014, 03:20:19 AM
 #6385


Also, the following: http://www.coindesk.com/inside-bitcoins-conference-las-vegas/

Quote
5:00–5:45 – Moving Bitcoin Forward: Bringing Trust, Legitimacy and Transparency to the Market

- Andreas M. Antonopoulos, founder at RootEleven

- Eric Benz VP, business development at ZipZap Inc

- Robert Cho, vice president at SecondMarket

- Adam Ettinger, partner at Strategic Counsel Corp.

- Izzy Klein, prinicpal at Podesta Group

- Ardon Lukasiewicz, founder at Bitmarkers (moderator)

I don't suppose any of the sessions were video taped?  I didn't see anything on the conference website.  

Edit: Never mind, found the audio on YourTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlgP1C6Tet4

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amer
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January 07, 2014, 03:22:01 AM
 #6386

The deadline is this Friday. We have to collect enough customers by then.
Why is there a deadline? What happens after Friday?

tips: 1amerApYUVjsKSuVUtfjxaoi7QXG7Zwao
fenwick
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January 07, 2014, 03:27:54 AM
 #6387

The deadline is this Friday. We have to collect enough customers by then.
Why is there a deadline? What happens after Friday?

The lawyer has written this:
Quote
Our offer terminates at close of business this Friday, California time, unless sooner accepted,

I guess he just would not like to put any more effort into this, if there is no real interest on our part?
(I have already gave him several hours of work, without paying anything.)

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January 07, 2014, 03:47:11 AM
 #6388

Hi all.

 * Anybody not in Batch 1, don't read this.
 * Anybody in Batch 1 who believes that HashFast is going to do the right thing voluntary, without a gentle nudge from us, don't read this.
 * Anybody in Batch 1 who believes that the right way to deal with HashFast is to open more communication channels with them, don't read this.

For the rest of you:

I have found a lawyer who is willing to take our case, and help us get our BTC back, if we can cooperate.)

The name is Ray E. Gallo.

Please make up your minds about him; I think he is great. (85% winning percentage, and specialized in class and mass actions alleging large scale fraud.)

Some data:

http://gallo-law.com/attorneys/gallo.html
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/94901-ca-ray-gallo-291467.html
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/94901-ca-ray-gallo-291467/reviews.html    <= reviews
http://www.linkedin.com/in/raygallo

(Now I let you experienced Google detectives jump on him.)

  * * *

After exchanging around 100 mails with me, and analyzing all the documents and evidence with his team, he thinks we can probably win this case for Batch 1 customers who have paid in BTC. (But of course there is no guarantee.)

As you all know, class action is forbidden by the (ever-changing) Terms of Service, but (by the nature of thing) "mass action" is not, and can not be.
So we can proceed in a “mass” basis: the same attorney working with multiple clients simultaneously.

This is like a class case in that it will give us some leverage by aggregating claims so that we can do more work on the matter.
It’s different in that they can make us try (arbitrate) every case.
(Which means that individual cases might end with success or failure independently of each other, but we can optionally pool the results, if we want to reach a fair distribution at the end.)

  * * *

Since the legal costs are (usually) pretty high, this might well be the only way to go for small customers like me, who have only bought 1 or 2 units.
(It would not make any economic sense to hire a such a strong lawyer on my own, but together, we might be able to make it.)

Ray Gallo is ready to take the case on a contingent basis, so we don't have to pay up-front; his fee comes down from the money recovered from HashFast, if we win.

The key to make this work is to collect enough participants.
He said that he is willing to take the case if there are at least around 30 Baby Jet worth of customers.



Now the question is, how many of you would you willing to participate in such an arrangement? I have 1 BJ.

DISCLAIMER: I know others are also talking to other lawyers, too. I'm not saying that everybody should stop what they are doing and stop proceeding along those lines; I
am just saying that this looks like a very good opportunity to me.

Anybody who is interested, please contact him directly via his own page, which I have linked above.

The deadline is this Friday. We have to collect enough customers by then.

Best wishes:

    fenwick
What kind of fees would be charged on the refund amount (should it happen) if the 30 BabyJet number is reached?

Zero, the lawyer would be working on contingency. If we win, lawyer gets a percentage and we get the remainder. If we lose, we owe nothing.






Win, or collect? Want to make sure the details on that.

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fenwick
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January 07, 2014, 03:49:24 AM
 #6389

Win, or collect? Want to make sure the details on that.

Quote
Anybody who is interested, please contact him directly via his own page, which I have linked above.

Just mail him or phone him.
He can give you the details better than I could.

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January 07, 2014, 03:59:25 AM
 #6390

The name is Ray E. Gallo.
...
Both, win and collect. He'll take us through the whole process and make sure we get what's owed.
What is the contingency denominated in? #bitcoins or #USD?

The only way this makes sense for miners is if it is a fraction of #bitcoins (albeit this may mean that the lawyer will get very very rich the moment a court decision is derived).

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
fenwick
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January 07, 2014, 04:03:38 AM
 #6391

The name is Ray E. Gallo.
...
Both, win and collect. He'll take us through the whole process and make sure we get what's owed.
What is the contingency denominated in? #bitcoins or #USD?

The only way this makes sense for miners is if it is a fraction of #bitcoins (albeit this may mean that the lawyer will get very very rich the moment a court decision is derived).

As far as I can tell, they will take X percent of our winnings (where 25 <= X <= 50), whatever the currency we win.
If X would be 50 (just an example), then
If I got back 50 BTC, he would take 25 BTC.
If I got back 50,000 USD, he would take 25,000 USD.

But as I have already mentioned:

Quote
Just mail him or phone him.
He can give you the details better than I could.
miaviator
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January 07, 2014, 04:19:28 AM
 #6392


Zero, the lawyer would be working on contingency. If we win, lawyer gets a percentage and we get the remainder. If we lose, we owe nothing.



Ba HAHAHAHAHAH

It's the same deal we got buying from hashfast!

My real estate agent takes 3% ask your lawyer if he'll match it.

Jutarul
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January 07, 2014, 04:29:34 AM
 #6393


Zero, the lawyer would be working on contingency. If we win, lawyer gets a percentage and we get the remainder. If we lose, we owe nothing.



Ba HAHAHAHAHAH

It's the same deal we got buying from hashfast!

My real estate agent takes 3% ask your lawyer if he'll match it.
The problem with contingency is that it creates an incentive for the lawyer to optimize work/reward for himself and not for the client, which has also been documented with real estate agents. Thus the lawyer may have an incentive to "resolve" the case within the first month by accepting a 20% bitcoin refund as a deal and never having to do any work for it...

If on contingency there needs to be a clause which gets the incentive right, e.g. something like a staggered reward ( 5% contingency at 25% payout, 10% at 50% payout, 15% at 75% payout, 20% at 100% payout), creating an incentive to perform as well as possible, because there is a disproportionate reward for a higher payout (double the payout -> quadruple the reward). 5% * 25% = 1.25% vs. 10% * 50% = 5% ...

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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January 07, 2014, 04:31:01 AM
 #6394

/\ I've found intelligent life on earth.

Mars is next.

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January 07, 2014, 04:48:40 AM
 #6395

Just wanted to say great job (especially cedivad) on making headlines in your effort to prosecute Hashlast. An example needs to be set to protect the mining community. Keep up the fight. Where is the legal fund donation address?

1MYwxy8TniWL37y3ueG2cN6i5eQ49Fr19Q
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January 07, 2014, 04:56:22 AM
 #6396


It's not like we've had tons of time to work on this. Hashfast has intentionally made the deadline short on us.

If you want to ask the lawyer a question about payouts or percentages, i would suggest you call him.
Their "deadline" is arbitrary and has no legal basis. All you need to do is "object" to their refund request form and "notify" HF of the real liability. This needs to happen as soon as possible.

The timeline of the "deadline" is aligned with their money grap strategy. I suspect they're trying to exploit the legal limbo they're in and use it as a form of plausible deniability. Once the first lawsuits come rolling in they will lose that advantage. That's why it's important to also get lawsuits filed as soon as possible.

Until then they will try to push people into new agreements and get as much pre-orders under USD denominated refund conditions in as possible. Because under USD denominated refund contracts with flexible delivery conditions they can exploit the shit out of their customers without legal recourse.

You don't have to find a good lawyer right away - find one which can protect your legal status and prevent you from making simple mistakes. A mass action to recover the maximum amount of #bitcoins from the rightful claims of batch 1 customers can be done at a later time.

addendum: I am already consulting with my lawyer w/ respect to the mass action

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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January 07, 2014, 05:34:05 AM
 #6397

if lawyer wants contingency then he will make more money on it and you will get less money. Amount of work in this case, I think, is limited. Going to celebrity lawyer maybe a mistake. And paying for work maybe a better outcome since after first case most other cases are about the same.

as long as you claim refund right before Jan 15, you will have time after that to find the right lawyer, but should be done ASAP

HashFast REFUND ! I am a HashFast's Batch 1 customer and I want full 100% BTC refund.
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January 07, 2014, 06:27:45 AM
 #6398

if lawyer wants contingency then he will make more money on it and you will get less money. Amount of work in this case, I think, is limited. Going to celebrity lawyer maybe a mistake. And paying for work maybe a better outcome since after first case most other cases are about the same.

as long as you claim refund right before Jan 15, you will have time after that to find the right lawyer, but should be done ASAP
Then, rather than committing the mistake of paying this guy a huge amount of refunds by going to mass action...

Why don't you start a collective fund so that this guy takes one person and works on the case to it's conclusion. If he succeeds then you can get cheaper lawyers to do the light work of referring to the first case as a precedent (assuming that even applied).

This would make it easier on the pocketbook of customers and leave the lawyer with a less than fat wallet.


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January 07, 2014, 06:36:53 AM
 #6399

Noticed that none of the concerns over at HashFast have even tried to defend all that's been stated in the past few days on this thread? Hell, nary a one has been by to tell Maxwell how to do his job via quoting the BT Canon.

Well, at least I may have some good news to report. Perhaps all the BTC collected is in the AmerGold Brianiac Trust: https://plus.google.com/photos/+JeromeFried/albums/5868476178160951825?banner=pwa

Quote
You couldn't have a better team of experts purveying your precious metals.

On a lighter note, how many HashFast concerns can fit in a Prius? All of them, provided they all enter from the rear.
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January 07, 2014, 07:08:57 AM
 #6400

Just wanted to say great job (especially cedivad) on making headlines in your effort to prosecute Hashlast. An example needs to be set to protect the mining community. Keep up the fight. Where is the legal fund donation address?
The CoinDesk article is misleading and my donation address would now go to the advantage of me alone (and i already have all the founding needed from my personal savings), so no need to donate. Thanks anyway.

I think that the lawyer suggested might be the best idea for many little customers around here, but as Jutarul said, make sure that the deal is not "i will take 25-50% of the USD refunds equivalent".

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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