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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865428 times)
mgio
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January 03, 2014, 06:35:20 PM
 #6141

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.
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January 03, 2014, 06:37:43 PM
 #6142

Another thing that is bothering me is if someone does fight HashFast and HashFast agrees to give them their full BTC back, they will likely ask them to sign something that says they are not allowed to disclose the terms of the settlement publicly. That means we'll probably never know if someone wins the fight and if it is worth going after HashFast Sad.

Sigh.  Another reason why we should have worked together.
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January 03, 2014, 06:45:17 PM
 #6143

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.

I saved a copy on day 1 (August 8 ) and emailed it to myself so it is time stamped by gmail. I've also uploaded it to pastebin in September here: http://pastebin.com/EfS9vmRf

This is the ToS I agreed to and will hold HF to. Since they frequently changed the ToS and often without notifying customers or changing the revision number and date it is up to each customer to figure out exactly what they agreed to at the date they made the sale.
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January 03, 2014, 06:45:51 PM
 #6144

The truth hurts, right?

I'm not trying to insult anyone, i'm just telling you guys how scammers act after a big heist like this.

It's perfect. Of course they sent out a couple of dev units to keep your hope up.

Edit: Next step in "How to scam, big time" , after the poorly,  hand assembled dev units going out, is that within 2-4 weeks they will pull HashFast.com

 Then within a week comes the official statement from Eudoardo where he with a tear in his eye declares HashFast is no more and they will try (<--) to make sure everyone get's their money back. Curtain, the show is over.


While imperfect, bankruptcy law does have protections for creditors.  I'm sure that management could abscond with some money, but it's nothing like what you portray, and with the outward appearance of fraud on some important issues (Oct delivery, MPP), there is potential personal civil or even criminal penalty.  If they disappear now, they will not wind up drinking a daquiri on a Caribbean beach - if they do, they will face a warrant - they will instead face years of expensive, time consuming, and depressing legal wrangling.

No matter what happens, and I presently assume it's going to be an ugly end, I am going to follow these guys.  I once had a horrific landlord that bothered and stole from me.  I followed that bastard on the internet for years (and thereby found other victims). Wherever he appeared, I made sure to remind people of the story of how he mistreated people. That's not at all something I usually do, even when slighted, but sometimes people just really, really piss you off.

Hashfast's management has crossed that threshold. I presently plan to do the same with Hashfast's people as I did with my landlord.  Wherever they appear in the future, they can look forward to me being there, and informing their friends and colleagues about how they ripped people off, what assholes they were. Especially deCastro and Scrotum.
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January 03, 2014, 06:55:44 PM
 #6145

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.

I saved a copy on day 1 (August 8 ) and emailed it to myself so it is time stamped by gmail. I've also uploaded it to pastebin in September here: http://pastebin.com/EfS9vmRf

This is the ToS I agreed to and will hold HF to. Since they frequently changed the ToS and often without notifying customers or changing the revision number and date it is up to each customer to figure out exactly what they agreed to at the date they made the sale.

Has anyone tried going through arbitration with them? If not, I might try it out.
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January 03, 2014, 06:58:28 PM
 #6146

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Edit: using the wayback machine, I see that it was not.

Glaplaw, here is the version of the TOS from when I ordered.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/194609352/Terms-of-Sale-HashFast-Technologies
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January 03, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
 #6147

What do you mean by "i might just try"? It's you only legal recurse, and your only possibility. It's not a try, it's the only try.
(this if you don't plan them breaching any law in the penal code, sure, that could as well be the case; at that point arbitration wouldn't fit in anymore).

I'm happy to read your posts, GlapLaw.
While i can't guarantee for it's accuracy, this is a page you could be interested in: http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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January 03, 2014, 07:13:48 PM
 #6148

Thank you, ced.

I also want to be clear (as I try to be in every thread in which I post): Absent an attorney-client relationship (i.e. someone specifically requesting my legal help and advice, and my obliging them) none of my general opinions or questions about what has happened should be taken to constitute legal advice or any opinions on the viability of any claims, or whether I think there are any claims. Nothing I say should be taken to create an attorney-client relationship, either!

Anything contained in the above post should NOT be taken to constitute the establishment of an Attorney-Client relationship. Anything in the above post should NOT be taken as legal advice, either generally, or for your specific situation. Anything contained in the above post should NOT be taken to indicate my opinion on any legal strategy or approach, or the viability of any legal claims.
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January 03, 2014, 07:18:41 PM
 #6149

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.

Why bother getting worked-up over it?  Just be happy that you may get any kind of refund at all!   Wink
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January 03, 2014, 07:28:46 PM
 #6150

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.
Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

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January 03, 2014, 07:29:43 PM
 #6151

IANAL, But all you need to know about refunds is right there in the ToS and Order Confirmation. These two documents are the binding contract you and HF agreed to at the time of the sale.

The ToS defines the payment as:
Quote
Payments are due in the amounts, in the currency, and at the time stated in the order or confirmation sent by Hashfast, or if not so stated: (a) paid in Bitcoin

The Order Confirmation quantifies and confirms the payment. In my case:
Quote
HashFast Technologies has received your order and payment in BTC for 1 Baby Jets. TOTAL BTC 59.7987

The Order Confirmation also clearly states your right to a refund of the payment in case the customer requests a refund before Jan 15 after failure to deliver by the guaranteed delivery date:
Quote
HashFast will issue a full refund the payment for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled.

So the payment is the payment and that is what is due unless you sign into a new agreement with HF by using the 'refund form'.

In other news I received the following letter today:



This is good, and if they get 50-100 of these complaints they will really get pissy. I hope that more of you file these complaints. It should be obvious now that they aren't shipping. They promised and promised that shipments would all happen by the 31st. Here we are, and there is total silence. They could be leaving with your money, get the complaints in as soon as possible to prevent it. They are a California corporation, so the AG office will have a lot more ability to stop them from disappearing if they know quickly.
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January 03, 2014, 07:33:30 PM
 #6152

The truth hurts, right?

I'm not trying to insult anyone, i'm just telling you guys how scammers act after a big heist like this.

It's perfect. Of course they sent out a couple of dev units to keep your hope up.

Edit: Next step in "How to scam, big time" , after the poorly,  hand assembled dev units going out, is that within 2-4 weeks they will pull HashFast.com

 Then within a week comes the official statement from Eudoardo where he with a tear in his eye declares HashFast is no more and they will try (<--) to make sure everyone get's their money back. Curtain, the show is over.


While imperfect, bankruptcy law does have protections for creditors.  I'm sure that management could abscond with some money, but it's nothing like what you portray, and with the outward appearance of fraud on some important issues (Oct delivery, MPP), there is potential personal civil or even criminal penalty.  If they disappear now, they will not wind up drinking a daquiri on a Caribbean beach - if they do, they will face a warrant - they will instead face years of expensive, time consuming, and depressing legal wrangling.

We don't have an established set of laws about transfers of bitcoins, or any way to create surefire reporting on history. Assuming they kept a lot of funds in bitcoin, those could disappear in a few keystrokes and start bouncing around the internet until they land in a few secret cold wallets. These guys could cash them in at any time and nobody would know. It's like if you all paid them in cash.
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January 03, 2014, 07:58:38 PM
 #6153

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.
Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

What's absurd?  That anyone believes that they sat on millions of dollars of BTC without exchanging them for USD.  Sure, maybe development costs were initially covered by investors but where has the money for materials and salaries come from?  And HashFast would probably bankrupt then selves if they tried to refund even 25% of their sales in BTC.

And no, I'm not a HF customer.  I'm just a curious bystander and ASIC enthusiast.  Does that mean I shouldn't have an opinion and can't post here or something?
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January 03, 2014, 08:13:35 PM
 #6154

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.
Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

What's absurd?  That anyone believes that they sat on millions of dollars of BTC without exchanging them for USD.  Sure, maybe development costs were initially covered by investors but where has the money for materials and salaries come from?  And HashFast would probably bankrupt then selves if they tried to refund even 25% of their sales in BTC.

And no, I'm not a HF customer.  I'm just a curious bystander and ASIC enthusiast.  Does that mean I shouldn't have an opinion and can't post here or something?

But they promised BTC refunds. It's not customers fault they promised such thing. Customers didn't force them to promise BTC refunds. It was their retard marketing scheme to bring customers who just blew up in their face. How would you feel to pay for a product with some kind of insurance and then get 0 product and 0 insurance. I bet you wouldn't like that.

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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January 03, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
 #6155

What do you mean by "i might just try"? It's you only legal recurse, and your only possibility. It's not a try, it's the only try.
(this if you don't plan them breaching any law in the penal code, sure, that could as well be the case; at that point arbitration wouldn't fit in anymore).

I'm happy to read your posts, GlapLaw.
While i can't guarantee for it's accuracy, this is a page you could be interested in: http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale

It isn't. First, it needs be established whether that clause is valid and what circumstances it covers. It is not legal to put a clause in a contract that says "you can't sue me". You can always sue. And if it is the case that HashFast is guilty of fraud, that is not going to be settled under arbitration but by a real court.

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January 03, 2014, 08:22:47 PM
 #6156

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.
Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

What's absurd?  That anyone believes that they sat on millions of dollars of BTC without exchanging them for USD.  Sure, maybe development costs were initially covered by investors but where has the money for materials and salaries come from?  And HashFast would probably bankrupt then selves if they tried to refund even 25% of their sales in BTC.

And no, I'm not a HF customer.  I'm just a curious bystander and ASIC enthusiast.  Does that mean I shouldn't have an opinion and can't post here or something?

Yes, they should declare bankruptcy if it comes to that. In the meantime they should begin honoring their refund promises.  I'm sure they don't want to refund the total amount in BTC, but they may have no choice.

Think of it this way:

BTC was at about $100 when orders were opened. Let's say BTC was still at $100. It's obvious that right now a babyjet has no chance of ever mining 56 BTC, so EVERY SINGLE ONE of hashfast's batch 1 customers would request a refund and hashfast would be quickly bankrupt. Bankrupt UNLESS, they decided to bump up the MPP so that their customers would at least have a chance of breaking even. Now that their R&D is complete, the easiest and cheapest them for them to do is ship more chips. The only thing that is saving HashFast's asses right now is the current BTC value. Otherwise they'd be in a tough spot.
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January 03, 2014, 08:28:12 PM
 #6157

It isn't. First, it needs be established whether that clause is valid and what circumstances it covers. It is not legal to put a clause in a contract that says "you can't sue me". You can always sue. And if it is the case that HashFast is guilty of fraud, that is not going to be settled under arbitration but by a real court.
Arbitration is faster, cheaper and binding. Standing to my lawyer, it applies the word of the law as good as a court of law. If the guy i was replying to decided to go to (binding) arbitration, he couldn't have a second possibility.
Please correct me if wrong.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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January 03, 2014, 08:41:15 PM
 #6158

Bankrupt UNLESS, they decided to bump up the MPP so that their customers would at least have a chance of breaking even. Now that their R&D is complete, the easiest and cheapest them for them to do is ship more chips.

That's essentially what CoinTerra decided to do.  Batch 1 customers will be receiving more hashpower.  So far as I can tell, those customers are largely satisfied with that outcome.

"All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed... and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S." - President F.D. Roosevelt, 1933
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January 03, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
 #6159

It doesn't matter what your ToS said at the time of purchase, no one is going to be refunded 50-60 BTC.  It's absurd to even wish that could happen.  You're going to get $5600 (or whatever you paid in USD) back and that's it.
Where were you when they were claiming thats exactly what they'd do? I don't recall any posts from you on it then. I suppose you are not actually a HF customer and instead bought from their competition without these "absurd" claims, at 1/5th the price?

Why do you think it absurd?  If they'd collected the coins and sat on them— after all, they say their fabrication was paid for by investors not by spending preorder money— then they could easily return them.

Or do you mean its absurd in that they're now sitting on millions of dollars of other people's coins which they obligated themselves to return but can plausibly escape doing so without consequence because of the cost of a legal fight and the possibility of them spending themselves into bankruptcy first, and so it would be "absurd" to honor their agreement? Is that what you mean?

What's absurd?  That anyone believes that they sat on millions of dollars of BTC without exchanging them for USD.  Sure, maybe development costs were initially covered by investors but where has the money for materials and salaries come from?  And HashFast would probably bankrupt then selves if they tried to refund even 25% of their sales in BTC.

And no, I'm not a HF customer.  I'm just a curious bystander and ASIC enthusiast.  Does that mean I shouldn't have an opinion and can't post here or something?
Keep in mind they are not free to use (or spend) any funds until they have delivered a product.

Did any of you recieve notice that you were investors in a company? (No?)

I believe their customers only agreed to purchase a piece of equipment with a deadline. If they didn't meet the deadline, people are free to cancel, request a refund, and obtain their original payment (in some early version of the TOS).

There is no real "Get out of jail card" in real life. Hence, probably the reason for the silence.

==========================

I do not wish to assume too much. Though I would not be surprised if HashFast is ignoring all refund requests that do not conform to their own motives and methods.

The next you will probably hear of them (I speculate wildly) is when the deadline for cancellation and refunds has passed.

You probably won't see a rep until the 15th January. Today is the 3rd January. You have 12 days until then.

============================

I hate to say it, but even silence can be a pressure tactic. So if you see a member (especially one with connections to HashFast) insinuate that you aren't sending in a valid refund request by not using their form before the 15th. <taps side of nose> ...well you know that is BS.

There is no obligation to use HashFast's agreements. Your original TOA (Terms of Agreement) are your first and last agreement with HashFast.

They can write whatever they want in newer revisions. Unless they ask you to agree to changes, they are up the creek without a paddle when it comes to refunds of payments. Their lawyer can only do so much in such a scenario, I suspect.

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cedivad
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January 03, 2014, 08:46:52 PM
 #6160

You probably won't see a rep until the 15th January. Today is the 3rd January. You have 12 days until then.
They have the 4 good news to share from now to then, to calm people down and such.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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