Puppet
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January 16, 2014, 09:04:50 AM |
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Sure, but the laws concerning refunds for unshipped products applies to BFL equally and many BFL customers will have lost a far larger part of their investment than any HF customer, assuming the latter starts shipping soon.
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Bicknellski
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January 16, 2014, 09:15:58 AM Last edit: January 16, 2014, 09:33:58 AM by Bicknellski |
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Sure, but the laws concerning refunds for unshipped products applies to BFL equally and many BFL customers will have lost a far larger part of their investment than any HF customer, assuming the latter starts shipping soon.
Given what has happened with BFL most likely precipitates what is going on with HashFast as well as other companies that fail to uphold their contracts. There are probably many former BFL now HF customers holding the HashFast CEO and others to their word. Neither frankly seem to understand basic ethics given what has been posted irregardless of the time it took to devolve. Also note they are FORCING refunds in an effort to do what exactly? It seems they are trying to lock people into taking USD in exchange for their BTC and that was not the deal as clearly stated here in this thread by many rightfully upset customers. The deal and I read it as well was that you got BTC for BTC... I can't believe they are actually going to try and screw over people. Sickening.
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 10:44:17 AM |
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I'm just going to add another thing to the discussion.
The MPP. If they delivered the MPP __before__ the end of the month, to batch 1 customers, along with the original order, exactly like they said that maybe they would have done, they would kill the majority of the liabilities they are facing, because batch 1 customers would be looking at an almost acceptable loss, it being 50%. Gallo will be taking 40% of what he is able to recover. That would for example instantaneously kill all of the claim of his customers, that could be in the million(s?) dollar range.
I personally wouldn't accept it, because they are scammer and all, i would need some real guarantees. But it could be as simple as that.
They are real idiots if they think that ignoring us and sending us USD refunds instead of the promised hardware or the promised refund will save them. And they are real idiots again if they think that trying to kill the company will stop us.
I've spent months saying this, i've spent months being pointed at like the one that makes things up, "you are not even gonna pay for the lawyer, come on". Now i will spend months making shit real for HF.
Because it's just the right thing to do.
It's the 16th of January here. They didn't even tried to contact my lawyer, a possibility that i was rating at 5%. Let's see how they ignore me during the next steps.
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 10:55:29 AM |
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So guys, Re: What does Several means: ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqZcT65u.jpg&t=665&c=ajabYF57m22buQ) We are very happy with the tech though, it is very impressive and works well. That's all I have for now, I will keep feeding you guys more information as it comes in ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) //DeaDTerra 4 sierras, working, and at least 8 empty racks waiting to be filled. So i think that we can now start to believe that HF has the hardware ready to go. And that maybe they could have something to do with the last difficulty increase. And that maybe it means that they are mining 1000 BTC per day, and it's a good enough reason not to give a duck about your customers anymore. Yet, the penal side of things will make them act straight, instead of keeping the hardware for themselves and issue USD refunds to everyone (but maybe they could do it with batch 4).
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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Searing
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Clueless!
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January 16, 2014, 11:55:08 AM |
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lots of folks have taken bfl to court and won in small claims etc..but enforcement is not there mainly because FTC and the law treats BFL products like a consumer product if you get it even 1 year late..the enforcement types are like "why are you bothering us" also why no lawyer will YET take a class action suit...they sent a product.... so they are using this loophole in enforcement..bfl that is to slide don't have any HF myself but looks like the same road if they are sending refunds back w/o notice in usd to you guys anyway...i went thru it all and got no place with bfl and ftc/paypal executive board/county attorney/BBB (no power but sympathetic) etc if i'm wrong point me someplace..but if you GET an item at least from BFL even 1 year late...tough......they seem only interested in true vaporware scams as far as an 'evil genius plan goes it seems flawless....hopefully HF will not go down this road.....) wish you all the best of luck been there it sucks Searing
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Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/2021. It also works with Windows 10 and likely 11 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine in Multi-Node! Five Minute Install! Look it over it uninstalls just as fast, if you simply want to look it over. Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:)
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pmorici
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January 16, 2014, 02:12:44 PM |
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Not to defend HF, but Im slightly surprised about the legal steps being taken against them if you consider that to my knowledge, no one has taken BFL to court yet. And that is despite BFL not offering any refunds whatsoever, and being way later than HF. Being "only" a month late (so far and if you consider the ToS instead of the sales pitch) and being offered full USD refunds is something BFL victims can only dream off.
1. At least one person has taken BFL to court and won a default judgment against them because they failed to show up to the trial. I've verified via a court records search that the below linked Reddit story is accurate http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1u4v0o/i_sued_bfl_in_kansas_jurisdiction_and_won/2. BFL accepted payment via paypal and similar forms which have a dispute resolution process. This provided a recourse for customers to get their payment back w/o having to resort to the courts. I'm not going to comment on your assertions about HF except to say that I don't think you have a full understanding of the facts.
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RoadStress
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January 16, 2014, 02:55:33 PM |
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Not to defend HF, but Im slightly surprised about the legal steps being taken against them if you consider that to my knowledge, no one has taken BFL to court yet. And that is despite BFL not offering any refunds whatsoever, and being way later than HF. Being "only" a month late (so far and if you consider the ToS instead of the sales pitch) and being offered full USD refunds is something BFL victims can only dream off.
Maybe it's because BFL had a lot of customers that invested a small amount of money compared to HF who has less people who invested a large amount of money. BFL customers can accept a small loss while HF ones can't accept a big loss.
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jspielberg
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January 16, 2014, 02:56:33 PM |
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I'm just going to add another thing to the discussion.
The MPP. If they delivered the MPP __before__ the end of the month, to batch 1 customers, along with the original order, exactly like they said that maybe they would have done, they would kill the majority of the liabilities they are facing, because batch 1 customers would be looking at an almost acceptable loss, it being 50%. Gallo will be taking 40% of what he is able to recover. That would for example instantaneously kill all of the claim of his customers, that could be in the million(s?) dollar range.
The loss is closer to +60%.. but that is better than the 90%+tax hit we are looking at now with the current situation. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auya3iRE6az1dGtKTGZDXzVDeFVjbHl3VmNsT216dHc&usp=sharingTo get to a 50% loss, they would need to provide the initial order + MPP + refund by Jan. 28th. I think most folks would accept that 50% loss as acceptable.
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 03:04:29 PM |
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I've calculated the 50% loss basing on a 5 board delivery per BJ and an hashrate per board of 550GH/s (and an avg of 90%/month of difficulty increases, the default now at mining.tgb) However since that HF should start shipping sometime like today for that to happen, we are talking about dreams.
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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Ilan1
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January 16, 2014, 03:27:23 PM Last edit: January 16, 2014, 03:59:55 PM by Ilan1 |
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Hello Erin, Please can you confirm if my case 6615, order 3951 will be refunded? When can I expect to receive the money by? I have sent a few emails already asking these same questions, I know you are busy but I would appreciate a reply. Thank you Kind regards Ilan On 13 Jan 2014, at 21:47, "HashFast Refunds" < refunds@hashfast.com> wrote: Good Afternoon, We have received your request. Sincerely, Erin Customer Service Manager -- HashFast Refunds refunds@hashfast.com--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the latest from HashFast twitter.com/hashfast -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:14:10 -0000 To: refunds@hashfast.comSubject: REFUND REQUEST AND RELEASE FORM ORDER #3951 Dear Madam / Sir, Please find attached a 'revised' Refund and Release request form for your attention. I understand that I am a batch 4 customer and as such according to your Terms and Conditions do not qualify for a refund until after 31st March 2014. However given recent events concerning delayed Batch 1 BabyJet shipments etc. I am kindly requesting that you also agree to refund my order as a batch 4 customer. I fully appreciate that this would be granted purely on a "goodwill basis", however please understand that since the ongoing shipping delays have occurred I have lost a great deal of confidence in your company. I am also somewhat concerned about all of the bad publicity your are receiving and the pending lawsuits that are imminent with respect to Bitcoin refunds to Batch 1 customers. I am naturally worried about what the implications would be if Hashfast were to lose these legal battles with your Batch 1 customers, and what that would mean for Hashfast and its remaining customers. Please understand that I never intended to request a refund and I sincerely wanted the product I ordered (and still do) however I can not simply ignore what has happened since ordering on Dec 11th 2013. Therefore please kindly consider my application for a refund and I would appreciate it if you could process my attached refund request ASAP. I have amended your form to reflect my refund request as a Batch 4 customer, and I trust my revisions to your form are all in order. I hope this emails reaches you well, as I have attempted to contact you over the last 2 weeks, sending emails, phone calls and written letters but I have yet to receive a response. I am sure you are extremely busy trying to fulfil batch 1 orders in time for your next promised deadline, however I would appreciate it if you could also find the time to review and respond to my refund request. I hope to hear from you soon. Yours sincerely Ilan
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 03:33:13 PM |
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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novello
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January 16, 2014, 03:34:16 PM |
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I've calculated the 50% loss basing on a 5 board delivery per BJ and an hashrate per board of 550GH/s (and an avg of 90%/month of difficulty increases, the default now at mining.tgb) However since that HF should start shipping sometime like today for that to happen, we are talking about dreams.
Hi, I'm not from the US and so I don't know how close their company law is to it's UK equivalent. but I think that your chances of getting any 'consequential' damages out of them, ie losses you think you have incurred as a result of their non delivery of your rig, are next to zero. Most courts wouldn't consider such a claim unless there were very specific clauses in the purchase agreement (like the ones for Boeing's Dreamliner from the airlines). For anyone that paid in Bitcoins, there's another complication as bitcoin isn't recognised as a currency (yet) so a court might not actually recognise that a 'legal' payment had taken place, unless you got a confirmation that your order had been received and that the full amount due in US dollars, not bitcoin, had been paid. Has anyone actually received a rig yet?
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miaviator
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It's for the children!
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January 16, 2014, 03:43:31 PM |
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Really? Now they are asking customers to just straight up give them direct access to their wallets. I suppose it would save a lot of time and effort in donating to BFL.
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 03:48:12 PM |
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Really? Now they are asking customers to just straight up give them direct access to their wallets. I suppose it would save a lot of time and effort in donating to BFL.
Hardware Wallet Protection Plan (HWPM): you will get the USD eq back if your wallet gets hacked, in a non better defined moment in the future (but after the first of February 2014 (that email if someone remembers it)) and only if the BTC price goes up 10 times in the meanwhile.
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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Gandalfs Mentor
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January 16, 2014, 04:01:20 PM Last edit: January 16, 2014, 04:28:15 PM by Gandalfs Mentor |
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https://i.imgur.com/qZcT65u.jpgWe are very happy with the tech though, it is very impressive and works well. That's all I have for now, I will keep feeding you guys more information as it comes in ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) //DeaDTerra Cedivad, TY for the update. ~looks like a 'Few' to me... Doesn't surprise me though, all indications are the play is fast and loose with no forethought or qualified personnel. Following a quick review of the photo, my professional critique of the installation is as follows: FAIL1 Side vents are 50% obstructed by mounting brackets on open side. Comment: Rack, shelving modules should have been employed instead of mounting brackets. 2 Side vent between units appears fully obstructed (Rack to Rack) Comment: Poor design, lack of knowledge and planning. 3 Bottom Unit in rack 1 is not readily accessible ~the unit above it must be removed to service the bottom one. (We don't put units on the bottom... (Dirt, physical damage, et cetera) start from top down. Comment: Poor design, lack of knowledge and planning. Guess there is a first time for everything... 4 Rack density does not permit ventilation between units, again amateurish and problematic lending to sever thermal issues down the road that will undoubtedly require considerable configuration. Problem will likely present when they continue to fill the racks if they follow the same installation format. For what its worth, this photo may be old ~except for the end rack units, the rest are not aligned or properly secured, looks like it may have been taken during the build itself. General question to the forum: With the limited data thus far available, has anyone else calculated thermal output per GN? EDIT: PS~ The tech in the photo is named Aladdin; he is waiting for the HF Genie to make a wish... Not to fret Aladdin, the magic smoke will appear soon...
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DPoS
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January 16, 2014, 04:06:28 PM |
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of course it will be pre-orders too!
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Inaba
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January 16, 2014, 04:41:41 PM |
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lots of folks have taken bfl to court and won in small claims etc..but enforcement is not there mainly because FTC and the law treats BFL products like a consumer product if you get it even 1 year late..the enforcement types are like "why are you bothering us" also why no lawyer will YET take a class action suit...they sent a product.... so they are using this loophole in enforcement..bfl that is to slide don't have any HF myself but looks like the same road if they are sending refunds back w/o notice in usd to you guys anyway...i went thru it all and got no place with bfl and ftc/paypal executive board/county attorney/BBB (no power but sympathetic) etc if i'm wrong point me someplace..but if you GET an item at least from BFL even 1 year late...tough......they seem only interested in true vaporware scams as far as an 'evil genius plan goes it seems flawless....hopefully HF will not go down this road.....) wish you all the best of luck been there it sucks Searing Dude... seriously, stop posting the same BS over and over. Nobody has taken BFL to court and won. There is one default judgement against BFL because we were never actually served the papers or knew about the case. You can rest assured that will not happen again. Beyond that, there has been no legal action to speak of, and certainly no court cases or judgement or people failing to collect.
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If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it. There was never anything there in the first place.
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cedivad
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January 16, 2014, 04:43:53 PM |
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Hey Josh,
Care to share how is it possible that someone sues you and you don't receive the proper paperwork to be there when a judge will decide if they are wrong or right?
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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Inaba
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January 16, 2014, 04:47:33 PM |
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I don't think that's possible cedivad. A judge won't decide who's wrong or right in the case you outline, they will just issue a default judgement, which is what happened.
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If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it. There was never anything there in the first place.
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