NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[^[GS]^]

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

I have not reviewed java code but if we can t send passphrase each time that would be great

This is similar to a conversation i had with Panda about something he was doing.

Why can't a client generate a token using the secret phrase using a component of the request - it could be <current time> or anything.
The server can decode the token to authenticate the request came from the account owner - we know this as requestType=decodeToken exists.

So I don't see the need to ever send the secret phrase when you could send a token, which could even be based on the whole request string...

Dont understand why it was ever developed so the secret phrase is sent for a stateless (i.e. non session based) request.

Totally chanc3r

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

You are only interested in the deadline if you are interested in forging. So the descision you have to make is "Is it safe to send the secret to the node I am connected to?". It doesn't matter how often you want to send the secret only if.

Apart from that: You can calculate the deadline yourself with the totalEffectiveBalance from getState:

chance_to_forge = AccountEffectiveBalance / totalEffectiveBalance.Value * 100

Thank you very much! did not know.
The value of the result of this formula returns the correct deadline? like the original function?

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[BrianNowhere]

So it is about TPS (or TPM).

Some random thoughts:
Should we aim high and make TPS one of the big distinction form other crypto currencies? Are we realistic with such a high TPS - do we really need it? It could be a VISA alternative. Do we get there? Maybe only if great things are made on top of Nxt the next months. Will there be great things on top of Nxt if we are called the next ripple, which is mostly a negative conjunction in the crypto world? Do we ever get there when we cannot market the super-decentralized-idea, raspberryPis and nice things? Are we the business solution of crypto currencies? Do businesses need cryptos? The business world is still very hesitated in regards to crypto currencies - if we fail in the business world in the next month and decided today to go this route, Nxt would be dead? How realistic is it to establish Nxt big in the business world? Are there other possibilities with ultra hight TPS, if not business related? Can we aim for both worlds? Maybe 200 TPS? (Could parallel blockchains help?) Can we aim high with all the other stuff without hight TPS?

How important is ultra hight TPS? What are your opinions? What did I forgot?

I want a big discussion about this.

The system that provides the fastest transactions securely will surpass Bitcoin as the number once currency. TF and high TPS is the #1 reason for the recent surge in interest in NXT in my opinion. In fact many people think it's already implemented and are out there talking around 'the water cooler' about this. The other factor will be easy FIAT conversion, which means being somewhat friendly to the banking system. Ease of use for regular people is also very very important. Ripple is beating NXT already in all of these areas. So to beat ripple and the others NXT needs to win on these fronts AND be more decentralized and free-standing.

The real question is if the goal is for NXT to be the currency that takes Bitcoin's place, or if it's happy as a 2nd or 3rd tier system that co-exists with other Alt currencies and becomes known as merely a decentralized platform to trade your fake money for different fake money that no one wants or needs or can use except for speculation. Once the current coin boom ends there will probably be a few cryptos that survive and interest in exchanges will die down. People may exchange real world assets with the AE but it's really hard to get people to change old habits. And unless AE gets accepted by the banking system AND the government, centralized exchanges will still be needed for FIAT conversion. The one way around that problem is to be so awesome as a form of currency that easy conversion to FIAT is not needed. That means popular usage amongst buyers, suppliers and consumers. Then everyone can HODL their NXT and not worry about converting. Volatility/Stability is also an issue here, where BTC is obviously lacking.

There's a VERY limited amount of people who dream about issuing their own currency or starting an IPO or even investing in one, but EVERYBODY needs to spend money and EVERYBODY would consider using an alternative that works easier and better than credit and debit cards and also protects against identity theft. EVERYONE also needs a way to perform fast, secure MICRO-TRANSACTIONS on the internet. Being able to quickly send .25 can potentially solve music and movie piracy, revive the online newspapers and allow people to monetize internet content.

Once these important fronts are won, then people might start looking more closely at the other features, such as AE, Aliasing, etc. But if no one is using NXT for the everyday stuff, no one may discover them or they will discover them on another platform like Ripple, Ethereum, EMunie etc. It's a very darwinian thing going on right now. The fittest will survive.

My two cents, or should I say .5 NXT

I don't know. It depends on why people want a fast transaction. If the sole reason is for point of purchase sales slow transaction speed of the network could potentially be overcome be other means. I think that the overall structure of NXT allows for more responsiveness and flexibility of use, and that fact will allow for people to identify more innovative ways to solve problems. NXT has more uses than Bitcoin does. This is what we have to make people aware of. This is the strength of NXT, and should be the focal selling point.

Ripple (which puts these selling points first as well) has been around longer than Bitcoin or at least nearly as long I believe. Which one is getting more attention? It's the one that is known for it's potential to revolutionize remittance and payments. It's the sexiest feature and I believe it is downplayed at our peril.

I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.

Bitcoin also has a solution to the slow transition speeds which is off chain processing ie: Centralization and trust. If Bitcoin and NXT use similar approaches to solving this problem then NXT loses an important advantage.

I'm not sure if "loading" pre-paid credit cards are possible except for being a cosmetics/perception sort of thing. It's still just a public key and a private key and needs to be confirmed via the block-chain.

I am very much hoping for the target to be everyone, everywhere. IMHO the best way to attract new customers is with the stuff that's easiest to understand and that is useful in everyday life for everyday people. "Come for the instant transactions, stay for the AE."

Yes it would be nice to target everyone every where, but I don't think that is really a viable target. If it would  create more work to make NXT capable of instant transactions than to get a credit card ACH provider to work with us in this area it would seem to be an advantageous trade off, to seek out of network solutions to instant transactions, for several reasons. And as for as centralization and trust, I don't think this is an issue either, as centralization is not really what it would be as it (in the visualization I have ) would be a free market service, People are familiar with prepaid credit cards, and use them regularly.

It does negate the notion of people being able to send payments to whoever, whenever but does offer a viable and familiar solution to instant point of purchase transactions. And I think that a functional means of instant point of purchase transactions holds trump to being unique and nonfunctional.

The problem as I see it is that "loading" a card with NXT is not possible. It still needs to be confirmed on the network when it's spent and doesn't matter if it's a card, a cell phone or whatever. If the transaction speed is too slow it will never work for Point of Sale without merchants taking a leap of faith, off chain transaction verification (trusted 3rd party)

TF is the big selling point of NXT. It's why I became interested in it and purchased some because all the "literature" promised it.
Seems like a lot of indian giving might be happening. NXT seems to be in danger of becoming a slower version of RIPPLE if TF doesn't happen.

I was liking what I was reading about parallel block chains though. That gave me a little hope.

HODLING

[marcus03]

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

I have not reviewed java code but if we can t send passphrase each time that would be great

This is similar to a conversation i had with Panda about something he was doing.

Why can't a client generate a token using the secret phrase using a component of the request - it could be <current time> or anything.
The server can decode the token to authenticate the request came from the account owner - we know this as requestType=decodeToken exists.

So I don't see the need to ever send the secret phrase when you could send a token, which could even be based on the whole request string...

Dont understand why it was ever developed so the secret phrase is sent for a stateless (i.e. non session based) request.

When you forge a block, the secret is needed in the cryptographic routine, so it has to go to NRS.

[chanc3r]

PLEASE PLEASE

When you 'QUOTE'....

EDIT THE 'QUOTE' so it only shows what your reply is relevant too..

Please don't quote whole rivers of text.... dare i say 'this is lazy'  

It will make it a lot lot easier for all of us reading this thread to catch everything...

I'm sure people will forget from time to time but please try to do this.

Thanks  

[Eadeqa]

All: Please watch this video about the future of Nxt and comment it (here), thank you very much!

http://youtu.be/RtTWUwRL9mQ

Nxt Decentralized Internet video - alfa version:
http://youtu.be/RtTWUwRL9mQ

(created between 20 Feb-8 March)

I would be very grateful for any comments and suggestions. It still needs some time, but it already can be commented

Based on the paper:
http://justpaste.it/decentralized-internet
(created between 12-18 Feb)

And good night, its almost 6 AM here

There is no evidence Nxt is ever going to implement zerocoin. It's incompatible  with 1000 TF

Zerocoin has a number of serious limitations:
- It uses cutting-edge cryptography which may turn out to be insecure, and which is understood by relatively few people (compared to ECDSA, for example).
- It produces large (20kbyte) signatures that would bloat the blockchain (or create risk if stuffed in external storage).
- It requires a trusted party to initiate its accumulator. If that party cheats, they can steal coin. (Perhaps fixable with more cutting-edge crypto.)
- Validation is very slow (can process about 2tx per second on a fast CPU), which is a major barrier to deployment in Bitcoin as each full node must validate every transaction.
- The large transactions and slow validation also means costly transactions, which will reduce the anonymity set size and potentially make ZC usage unavailable to random members of the public who are merely casually concerned about their privacy.
- Uses an accumulator which grows forever and has no pruning. In practice this means we'd need to switch accumulators periodically to reduce the working set size, reducing the anonymity set size. And potentially creating big UTXO bloat problems if the horizon on an accumulator isn't set in advance.

[BrianNowhere]

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.

I am totally fine with that.

Guess what? I'm fine with that too. No need to insult people after all.

I'm sorry I offended you. It was not my intention, my passion causes me to step on toes sometimes and verbal/written sparring is something I enjoy as an art form. I really don't take it personally.  I am sure you are a nice person and have a nice family.

[marcus03]

Thank you very much! did not know.
The value of the result of this formula returns the correct deadline? like the original function?

It returns an accounts chance to forge the next block in percent (values between 0 and 1). To map this to a deadline you would take into account how many blocks you would need to wait for to get a 100% chance and put the number of blocks per time into the formula. Or you just look it up in the NRS code.

[chanc3r]

When you forge a block, the secret is needed in the cryptographic routine, so it has to go to NRS.

Yep - to log in to a node to make it forge NRS needs the secret.

But to validate an information request? or am I misunderstanding this use-case.

i wasn't thinking there were no cases where NRS needed the secret phrase.
but are there not some cases like this one where tokens would do and they are not being used?

[Jerical13]

I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.

If you want volume the vast majority of transactions are still cash and instant - these are C2B - Customer to Business... and i'm talking about the 'world as a whole' not the 'western world'.

If you want to play in this space you need to be instant, card transactions are not 'instant' - the are authorised, the transaction is accepted with ZERO confirmations but based on a validity check - it requires one confirmation from the card issuer and this is done later.. There is also a complex liability model because of this and that is one reason why fee's are so high. BTW this is also true of pre-pay cards.

Prepay cards exist for FIAT, people will only use them for NXT if there is a reason, why not use FIAT. Card Companies have a strangle hold with fee's on the merchants, to get them to use you - you have to give them an alternative - why are webisites accepting bitcoin - because they are crypto enthusiasts all of a sudden - 'No' they are using it as a way to avoid paying higher card charges and a threat to get the card companies to lower their charges.

If you use existing pre-pay card networks then you pay their fees?? It costs millions in POS infrastructure to roll out your own.

To combat card companies you will see mobile payments moving into this space more and more, there is no crypto capable of 'instant transactions' yet that I have seen. The holy grail is to confirm the transaction end2end between the payer and payee accounts.

Like I posted earlier - Instant is NOT needed for everything, and we should have some kind of slow, faster, instant type of transactions.

My question would be: do c2b transactions need to have the kind of speed that people are talking about trying to get out of the NXT network? and is there a point in trying to make changes to the network in relation to this need?

I realize Credit card companies make a lot of money by charging fees, but hat to me is irrelevant to solving the problem of point of purchase sales. I run a small business, and while I would rather a customer pay by other means, I don't turn credit card payments away.

I am just suggesting that if the only reason that there is being any consideration given to putting any resources into changing the NXT network to provide faster transactions is so people won't have to stand and wait at the register at Starbucks while their latte gets cold, that there may be other options to solve this problem outside the network.

Incidentally there would be other benefits to using prepaid credit cards in this fashion: ATM access, More wide spread acceptance and usability, and it would add depth to the NXT portfolio of active business associates.

If it is possible to speed up the network, in a resource efficient manor that wasn't out of balance with the purpose for speeding it up I say "Hell Yeah! Do it". If not , there are other options.

[marcus03]

When you forge a block, the secret is needed in the cryptographic routine, so it has to go to NRS.

Yep - to log in to a node to make it forge NRS needs the secret.

But to validate an information request? or am I misunderstanding this use-case.

i wasn't thinking there were no cases where NRS needed the secret phrase.
but are there not some cases like this one where tokens would do and they are not being used?

When you forge, NRS keeps the account secret in memory. In case the account actually gets to forge a block, the secret is needed to sign the generated block. The block is then broadcasted to peers and they will validate the block.

[opticalcarrier]

Any online nodes have enabled APICors? (for ajax cross domain)

i believe I did enable this for vps1 - vps26 hosts on .nxtcrypto.org

[antanst]

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

I'm trying to wrap my mind on the following:

Someone still can attempt a double-spending by paying for something with low fee and then sending all their coins to other account with higher fee, making it impossible to confirm the first payment.

Since the second transaction has a higher fee, it will get on the next block with higher priority, right? Since the first payment won't be confirmed, how can the double-spend succeed?

[opticalcarrier]

I have not reviewed java code but if we can t send passphrase each time that would be great

i do not like the idea of anyone being able to determine if some account is/not forging on a particular IP address.  SSL is available for this type of thing.

[BrianNowhere]

Lol. So you didn't actually deny that those comments were meant to be insulting. Nah, I don't get my feelings hurt by your sorry attempts at trying to make yourself look better by putting someone else down. Like I said, you clearly have some insecurities.

I'd also like to know what's going on with Nxt. The day that Nxt stops offering the services that the market wants, in the name of following government regulations, is the day I (and a LOT of other like-minded people) press the SELL button.

I am what you might call a Social Democracy kind of guy and in a lot of ways I could be considered a liberal. However, I am aware that Liberals do some pretty ridiculous things sometimes and their good intentions often pave the way to hell.  When someone calls me a 'lib-tard" I take that as an insult. when someone says something like, "You liberals are always coming up with solutions in search of problems" or something similar I consider that to be good natured debate. I felt my comments were in the realm of the latter.

[Voluntold]

This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

I think the mixing will be an add on layer on top of the Nxt as the gateways and it can be located in any where. Users can stay away from it if they are afraid because of government's regulations.

I am totally fine with that.

Guess what? I'm fine with that too. No need to insult people after all.

I'm sorry I offended you. It was not my intention, my passion causes me to step on toes sometimes and verbal/written sparring is something I enjoy as an art form. I really don't take it personally.  I am sure you are a nice person and have a nice family.

Well thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it. You'll find most of us 'free market' people are pretty nice. We generally don't care how other think or feel, so long as we don't have any force initiated on us. Very 'live and let live'. Again, thank you for your sincere apology.

[chanc3r]

If it is possible to speed up the network, in a resource efficient manor that wasn't out of balance with the purpose for speeding it up I say "Hell Yeah! Do it". If not , there are other options.

To use your words 'Hell Yeah' this is the way I would try to do it... and it is about infrastructure if you consider this to be how NXT works as a whole, but its not about H/W or shouldn't be (other than N/W).

[wesleyh]

Any online nodes have enabled APICors? (for ajax cross domain)

i believe I did enable this for vps1 - vps26 hosts on .nxtcrypto.org

Yep thanks, though 10 and 17 or 18 didn't work (and threw an error so didn't check further).

wesley

[BrianNowhere]

When you forge, NRS keeps the account secret in memory. In case the account actually gets to forge a block, the secret is needed to sign the generated block. The block is then broadcasted to peers and they will validate the block.

If that's true that's kind of scary. Seems like a point of vulnerability waiting for a genius with a black hat.

[ChuckOne]

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

I'm trying to wrap my mind on the following:

Someone still can attempt a double-spending by paying for something with low fee and then sending all their coins to other account with higher fee, making it impossible to confirm the first payment.

Since the second transaction has a higher fee, it will get on the next block with higher priority, right? Since the first payment won't be confirmed, how can the double-spend succeed?

If the merchant has already given you the requested item and after that the first transaction get lost/reverted/etc. (because you spend the money somewhere else) we talk about a double-spend.

[BrianNowhere]

PLEASE PLEASE

When you 'QUOTE'....

EDIT THE 'QUOTE' so it only shows what your reply is relevant too..

Please don't quote whole rivers of text.... dare i say 'this is lazy'  

It will make it a lot lot easier for all of us reading this thread to catch everything...

I'm sure people will forget from time to time but please try to do this.

Thanks  

Ok.

(I could not resist)