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Author Topic: [ANN][VRC] VeriCoin Proof of Stake-Time Currency | New Roadmap Released  (Read 1349956 times)
mr_random
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July 13, 2014, 09:48:18 PM
 #7901


This is not even an option.

Blame Mintpal not Vericoin. Rollback is a must. If Vericoin doesn't rollback then it will be worth NOTHING. The coin will be DEAD.



There is a reason why Bitcoin transactions aren't arbitrarily reversed after thefts.

There shouldn't be a rollback. A hardfork to undo this is worse than the thief dumping the coins. Mintpal are just trying to erase their losses here.

Apples & oranges @ no time was almost 30% of ALL BTC stolen.

Firstly, it makes no difference just because it's a large number. Decentralisation and irreversibility are the two fundamental underpinning tenets of Bitcoin. I guarantee you, long term, Vericoin price will be hurt more by doing this rollback than just leaving it be. No new future investors will touch a coin that does something like this. Either way the price will be damaged by this, if some of you are naive enough to think a dirty rollback will "fix everything" and the price will carry on as normal, you are going to be in for a shock.

Secondly, there is not much of a difference between doing this once and doing it for every theft. It's a dangerous precedent.


You going to answer my questions or ignore them like EVERYONE ELSE who is FUDDING right now?

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

You think it'd be a better precedent to allow a thief complete control over the network in the name of "fundamental underpinning tenets?"

Listen dumbass. In that situation a hacker isn't going to spend a week fucking around with the network and watching his $2million worth of of Vericoin become worthless as the price bombs on every exchange due to what he is doing. He will sell his Vericoin whilst they are still worth something.

How is the hacker going to sell when no exchange will reopen trading until the fork is complete?

Have you even read the conversation? We are talking about a no fork scenario here.

Yeah, the no-fork scenario that you're a proponent of, yet you're saying that if there wasn't a fork the hacker would dump on every exchange.

So... what the fuck are you talking about?

I'm assuming since you've realised the flaw in your original logic (namely, no hacker would sit around and control the network whilst their coins become worthless), you are now reverting to making nonsensical posts.

I've already explained what I am talking about, very clearly. Of course the hacker will dump his coins on the exchanges. Why is that a problem? Can you explain?

Uhh, because it would result in the needless destruction of an exchange and a currency and the enrichment of a thieving party for no reason other than the preservation of the blockchain, and forking would address that.

Where is the flaw in my logic?

And prove to me why it would destroy Mintpal and Vericoin. You cannot. If Vericoin plummets in price, which it would in this scenario, Mintpal can pay back the stolen Vericoin easily. And eventually Vericoin would find a new equilibrium price and recover.

What you do not like is the thief gaining from this and the price of Vericoin suffering.



So we're back to my original original question that you never answered:

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

We are not "back" to your original question. Now that I have destroyed every woefully prepared argument you have put my way, which you conveniently ignore, you have fallen back onto something else.

If someone gained 51% of the network hash of the Bitcoin network, they can change the hash mechanism without violating decentralisation or irreversibility. And other such arguments.



Destroyed?

Your solution is to let a hacker dump 33% of the coin supply and see what happens.

I've already asked you to explain why that is a problem and I addressed your response as follows:

"And prove to me why it would destroy Mintpal and Vericoin. You cannot. If Vericoin plummets in price, which it would in this scenario, Mintpal can pay back the stolen Vericoin easily. And eventually Vericoin would find a new equilibrium price and recover.

What you do not like is the thief gaining from this and the price of Vericoin suffering."

I consider a discussion finished when the other party is going around in circles. Have a nice day.

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onsightit
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July 13, 2014, 09:48:53 PM
 #7902

From Li Zhuan: "We help community propser, not just us. When #vericoin releases new wallet required for hardfork & people adopt,our full force will be shown."

Thanks, Li!

VRC: VMTMcvFjZHAshmVNLY5KYVHCTqcfEnH6Bd  SLR: 8W7D6D7rortYp51BK9MSrfripSoZWyVPVr  BTC: 1LbgAsTDtyWEGjiSaguJhJbaHBPgcMnHfP  BCC: 1Ta39PK67VXTD2xnmPNo5J9KJyBVHdYmy
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July 13, 2014, 09:49:23 PM
 #7903


This is not even an option.

Blame Mintpal not Vericoin. Rollback is a must. If Vericoin doesn't rollback then it will be worth NOTHING. The coin will be DEAD.



There is a reason why Bitcoin transactions aren't arbitrarily reversed after thefts.

There shouldn't be a rollback. A hardfork to undo this is worse than the thief dumping the coins. Mintpal are just trying to erase their losses here.

Apples & oranges @ no time was almost 30% of ALL BTC stolen.

Firstly, it makes no difference just because it's a large number. Decentralisation and irreversibility are the two fundamental underpinning tenets of Bitcoin. I guarantee you, long term, Vericoin price will be hurt more by doing this rollback than just leaving it be. No new future investors will touch a coin that does something like this. Either way the price will be damaged by this, if some of you are naive enough to think a dirty rollback will "fix everything" and the price will carry on as normal, you are going to be in for a shock.

Secondly, there is not much of a difference between doing this once and doing it for every theft. It's a dangerous precedent.


You going to answer my questions or ignore them like EVERYONE ELSE who is FUDDING right now?

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

You think it'd be a better precedent to allow a thief complete control over the network in the name of "fundamental underpinning tenets?"

Listen dumbass. In that situation a hacker isn't going to spend a week fucking around with the network and watching his $2million worth of of Vericoin become worthless as the price bombs on every exchange due to what he is doing. He will sell his Vericoin whilst they are still worth something.

How is the hacker going to sell when no exchange will reopen trading until the fork is complete?

Have you even read the conversation? We are talking about a no fork scenario here.

Yeah, the no-fork scenario that you're a proponent of, yet you're saying that if there wasn't a fork the hacker would dump on every exchange.

So... what the fuck are you talking about?

I'm assuming since you've realised the flaw in your original logic (namely, no hacker would sit around and control the network whilst their coins become worthless), you are now reverting to making nonsensical posts.

I've already explained what I am talking about, very clearly. Of course the hacker will dump his coins on the exchanges. Why is that a problem? Can you explain?

Uhh, because it would result in the needless destruction of an exchange and a currency and the enrichment of a thieving party for no reason other than the preservation of the blockchain, and forking would address that.

Where is the flaw in my logic?

And prove to me why it would destroy Mintpal and Vericoin. You cannot. If Vericoin plummets in price, which it would in this scenario, Mintpal can pay back the stolen Vericoin easily. And eventually Vericoin would find a new equilibrium price and recover.

What you do not like is the thief gaining from this and the price of Vericoin suffering.



So we're back to my original original question that you never answered:

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

We are not "back" to your original question. Now that I have destroyed every woefully prepared argument you have put my way, which you conveniently ignore, you have fallen back onto something else.

If someone gained 51% of the network hash of the Bitcoin network, they can change the hash mechanism without violating decentralisation or irreversibility. And other such arguments.



Destroyed?

Your solution is to let a hacker dump 33% of the coin supply and see what happens.

I've already asked you to explain why that is a problem and I addressed your response:

"And prove to me why it would destroy Mintpal and Vericoin. You cannot. If Vericoin plummets in price, which it would in this scenario, Mintpal can pay back the stolen Vericoin easily. And eventually Vericoin would find a new equilibrium price and recover.

What you do not like is the thief gaining from this and the price of Vericoin suffering."

I consider a discussion finished when the other party is going around in circles. Have a nice day.

Show me a coin with market depth that can support a 33% dump.


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DICE           
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btcsnippers
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July 13, 2014, 09:51:11 PM
 #7904


This is not even an option.

Blame Mintpal not Vericoin. Rollback is a must. If Vericoin doesn't rollback then it will be worth NOTHING. The coin will be DEAD.



There is a reason why Bitcoin transactions aren't arbitrarily reversed after thefts.

There shouldn't be a rollback. A hardfork to undo this is worse than the thief dumping the coins. Mintpal are just trying to erase their losses here.

Apples & oranges @ no time was almost 30% of ALL BTC stolen.

Firstly, it makes no difference just because it's a large number. Decentralisation and irreversibility are the two fundamental underpinning tenets of Bitcoin. I guarantee you, long term, Vericoin price will be hurt more by doing this rollback than just leaving it be. No new future investors will touch a coin that does something like this. Either way the price will be damaged by this, if some of you are naive enough to think a dirty rollback will "fix everything" and the price will carry on as normal, you are going to be in for a shock.

Secondly, there is not much of a difference between doing this once and doing it for every theft. It's a dangerous precedent.


You going to answer my questions or ignore them like EVERYONE ELSE who is FUDDING right now?

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

You think it'd be a better precedent to allow a thief complete control over the network in the name of "fundamental underpinning tenets?"

Listen dumbass. In that situation a hacker isn't going to spend a week fucking around with the network and watching his $2million worth of of Vericoin become worthless as the price bombs on every exchange due to what he is doing. He will sell his Vericoin whilst they are still worth something.

How is the hacker going to sell when no exchange will reopen trading until the fork is complete?

Have you even read the conversation? We are talking about a no fork scenario here.

Yeah, the no-fork scenario that you're a proponent of, yet you're saying that if there wasn't a fork the hacker would dump on every exchange.

So... what the fuck are you talking about?

I'm assuming since you've realised the flaw in your original logic (namely, no hacker would sit around and control the network whilst their coins become worthless), you are now reverting to making nonsensical posts.

I've already explained what I am talking about, very clearly. Of course the hacker will dump his coins on the exchanges. Why is that a problem? Can you explain?

Uhh, because it would result in the needless destruction of an exchange and a currency and the enrichment of a thieving party for no reason other than the preservation of the blockchain, and forking would address that.

Where is the flaw in my logic?

And prove to me why it would destroy Mintpal and Vericoin. You cannot. If Vericoin plummets in price, which it would in this scenario, Mintpal can pay back the stolen Vericoin easily. And eventually Vericoin would find a new equilibrium price and recover.

What you do not like is the thief gaining from this and the price of Vericoin suffering.



So we're back to my original original question that you never answered:

So to put things in perspective, you'd be okay with absolutely nothing being done about a simultaneous 33% acquisition of the bitcoin supply by a malicious thief along with 51% of the network hash by that same person?

We are not "back" to your original question. Now that I have destroyed every woefully prepared argument you have put my way, which you conveniently ignore, you have fallen back onto something else.

If someone gained 51% of the network hash of the Bitcoin network, they can change the hash mechanism without violating decentralisation or irreversibility. And other such arguments.



Destroyed?

Your solution is to let a hacker dump 33% of the coin supply and see what happens.

can u guys please stop with these page fillers and pm eachoter or get a room.
eiskalt
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July 13, 2014, 09:52:03 PM
 #7905

Hi all,

just want to show support for the DEVs decision to hardfork the blockchain.

I like it, how finally somebody stands up against all these cryptothefts by protecting the property of community members and investors.

I am all for letting those thieves know, that they cannot screw up the vericoin blockchain. A hardfork will discourage them to try again, because they have nothing to gain. It will in fact protect the integrity of the blockchain, because property rights are respected here.

Bitcoin Foundation and DEVs thought/think they need to protect the integrity of their blockchain by never rolling back transactions even after considerable amounts of BTC were stolen. This only lead to more thefts, scams and fraud - up to the point, when mtgox itself went into bankruptcy under highly suspicious circumstances.
And now $-volume at the exchanges is falling and mainstream is scared away from bitcoin, because of all these thefts.

It is not more than a theory, that you cannot roll back fraudulent transactions, because it will discourage future investors - eventually it will be proven wrong.

That is just my opinion,

Thanx

If vericoin gets dumped, I will buy more.
majeis
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July 13, 2014, 09:52:42 PM
 #7906

can u guys please stop with these page fillers and pm eachoter or get a room.

I'll stop because you asked so nicely Smiley


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██████████
██████████
██████████
██████████
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███████
BTC  ◉PLAY  ◉XMR  ◉DOGE  ◉STRAT  ◉ETH  ◉GRC  ◉LTC  ◉DASH  ◉PPC
     ▄▄██████████████▄▄
  ▄██████████████████████▄        █████
▄██████████████████████████▄      █████
████ ▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄ ████     ▄██▀
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PLINKO       
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July 13, 2014, 09:53:25 PM
 #7907

It's hard to see how VRC is going to come out of this well.

consider. Forks in BTC have been for technical reasons asfaik.


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July 13, 2014, 09:55:45 PM
 #7908

Hi all,

just want to show support for the DEVs decision to hardfork the blockchain.

I like it, how finally somebody stands up against all these cryptothefts by protecting the property of community members and investors.

I am all for letting those thieves know, that they cannot screw up the vericoin blockchain. A hardfork will discourage them to try again, because they have nothing to gain. It will in fact protect the integrity of the blockchain, because property rights are respected here.

Bitcoin Foundation and DEVs thought/think they need to protect the integrity of their blockchain by never rolling back transactions even after considerable amounts of BTC were stolen. This only lead to more thefts, scams and fraud - up to the point, when mtgox itself went into bankruptcy under highly suspicious circumstances.
And now $-volume at the exchanges is falling and mainstream is scared away from bitcoin, because of all these thefts.

It is not more than a theory, that you cannot roll back fraudulent transactions, because it will discourage future investors - eventually it will be proven wrong.

That is just my opinion,

Thanx

If vericoin gets dumped, I will buy more.

so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.


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https://www.binance.com/?ref=10062065
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July 13, 2014, 09:56:10 PM
 #7909

It's hard to see how VRC is going to come out of this well.

consider. Forks in BTC have been for technical reasons asfaik.



I just occurred to me...
if I was the hacker:

I would send most of the coins to an address without keys.
something like: mintpalsucskandhasnosecuritylol

Hacker turned hero?
Shows Mintpal security flaw.
Decreases coin supply.
Keeps small amount as fee.
Price of coin goes up.
?? ?
Profit


Mintpal dies.
Central exchanges die.
Central everything dies.
Distribution lives.
New world.
onsightit
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July 13, 2014, 09:56:42 PM
 #7910

From Li Zhuan: "We help community propser, not just us. When #vericoin releases new wallet required for hardfork & people adopt,our full force will be shown."

Thanks, Li!

I think Li Zhuan will happily catch all the dumpers after the fork.  i'm holding and staking...

VRC: VMTMcvFjZHAshmVNLY5KYVHCTqcfEnH6Bd  SLR: 8W7D6D7rortYp51BK9MSrfripSoZWyVPVr  BTC: 1LbgAsTDtyWEGjiSaguJhJbaHBPgcMnHfP  BCC: 1Ta39PK67VXTD2xnmPNo5J9KJyBVHdYmy
Conurtrol
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July 13, 2014, 09:58:04 PM
 #7911

Hi all,

just want to show support for the DEVs decision to hardfork the blockchain.

I like it, how finally somebody stands up against all these cryptothefts by protecting the property of community members and investors.

I am all for letting those thieves know, that they cannot screw up the vericoin blockchain. A hardfork will discourage them to try again, because they have nothing to gain. It will in fact protect the integrity of the blockchain, because property rights are respected here.

Bitcoin Foundation and DEVs thought/think they need to protect the integrity of their blockchain by never rolling back transactions even after considerable amounts of BTC were stolen. This only lead to more thefts, scams and fraud - up to the point, when mtgox itself went into bankruptcy under highly suspicious circumstances.
And now $-volume at the exchanges is falling and mainstream is scared away from bitcoin, because of all these thefts.

It is not more than a theory, that you cannot roll back fraudulent transactions, because it will discourage future investors - eventually it will be proven wrong.

That is just my opinion,

Thanx

If vericoin gets dumped, I will buy more.

so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.




so what happens if ghash gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.

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July 13, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
 #7912

here's the problem with a rollback: You sell me 100 oz. of GOLD, not fiat, not bitcoin, not pork bellies (tho the pork bellies wld be same as Au) for an equivalent amount of VRC.

You and I agree that VRC has value, so we agree to the exchange, I send you VRC, you ship me gold coins.

A bad man steals many VRC from MintPal. Blockchain gets rolled back. I get my VRC back.

*But I Still Have Your Gold.*
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July 13, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
 #7913

BTC was forked 100 times
LTC  forked many times
DRK forked twice last month

.........................ETC ................


VRC FORKED NOW  . SO WHAT ?
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July 13, 2014, 10:00:19 PM
 #7914

Well what I see is a few people for the rollback I really don't see the issue with it you like to say "oh bitcoin never did this bitcoin never did this" but there's two MAJOR ISSUES with that argument. FIRST AND FOR MOST VERICOIN IS NOT BITCOIN. Secondly Bitcoin has never had 30% of all coins stolen, bet you money something would be done if it did happen to bitcoin though.

 So all in all I believe the Devs are doing the right thing and yes there will invariably be a dump after the exchanges unfreeze but I'm excited for it because that means once again I get to take VRC out of the hands of idiot day traders and weak hands for cheap and put them in my nice long term staking wallet to actually support VRC
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July 13, 2014, 10:02:03 PM
 #7915

But the meaning of a decentralized exchange has been set again.

Need BadAss Bulletproof VPS or Bulletproof VPN or why not just mail safe with Safe-Mail. We care about your privacy.
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July 13, 2014, 10:02:26 PM
 #7916


This is not even an option.

Blame Mintpal not Vericoin. Rollback is a must. If Vericoin doesn't rollback then it will be worth NOTHING. The coin will be DEAD.



There is a reason why Bitcoin transactions aren't arbitrarily reversed after thefts.

There shouldn't be a rollback. A hardfork to undo this is worse than the thief dumping the coins. Mintpal are just trying to erase their losses here.

Apples & oranges @ no time was almost 30% of ALL BTC stolen.

Firstly, it makes no difference just because it's a large number. Decentralisation and irreversibility are the two fundamental underpinning tenets of Bitcoin. I guarantee you, long term, Vericoin price will be hurt more by doing this rollback than just leaving it be. No new future investors will touch a coin that does something like this. Either way the price will be damaged by this, if some of you are naive enough to think a dirty rollback will "fix everything" and the price will carry on as normal, you are going to be in for a shock.

Secondly, there is not much of a difference between doing this once and doing it for every theft. It's a dangerous precedent.


 You "guarantee" a lot of shit, that's what you "guarantee". As a matter of fact if EVERY THEFT is reversed, that would indeed guaranteed no thefts at all. And the cryptyo community needs that dearly to gain any semblance of credibility in the real world.

Oh and by the way, I am going to believe that you, Mr. Random, are indeed involved in this theft. Just like I would consider anyone who defends that a massive theft goes unpunished.

I am wired that way.
Dadams
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July 13, 2014, 10:02:49 PM
 #7917

NOISE

Precedent of a rollback would be horrible.
Rollback is not possible without losing all credibility.
What the hell is the use of a cryptocurrency if this is the way it will be played.
How many rollbacks in the future?
Oh hell I made a mistake in my payment, lets just roll it all back.
Might as well just stick to central banks and credit cards.
Why not lobby to get BTC rolled back to before MTGOX lost all money?
People lost way more there.
No rollback.
No fork.

The people at fault here is Mintpal and the hacker.

Only person who can actually save vericoin at this stage is the hacker.
Funny thought.
Seldar
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July 13, 2014, 10:02:59 PM
 #7918

here's the problem with a rollback: You sell me 100 oz. of GOLD, not fiat, not bitcoin, not pork bellies (tho the pork bellies wld be same as Au) for an equivalent amount of VRC.

You and I agree that VRC has value, so we agree to the exchange, I send you VRC, you ship me gold coins.

A bad man steals many VRC from MintPal. Blockchain gets rolled back. I get my VRC back.

*But I Still Have Your Gold.*

You win the arguments fight, end of discussion!

I'm not a VC supporter, but I can't stop being revolted by Mintpal's behaviour.
They make an horrible mistake with their poor security and then they asked (or threatened ?) the devs to reverse the blockchain...
Poor devs, all their work beeing destroyed like that because of a so bad company...

Sorry for my bad english Smiley
eiskalt
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July 13, 2014, 10:04:51 PM
 #7919


so what happens if such a centralized dev team gets leaned upon by gov which includes a gag order not to say they are being leaned upon?

it looks like a single point off failure.



What assures you that this didn´t already happen to bitcoin or any other coin?
 
Here it is about theft of peoples property and if the only tool you have left to discourage theft is a hardfork, than it is the right thing to do. Yes, it is experimental but at some point it has to be done by someone anyway.
FUD_master
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July 13, 2014, 10:05:33 PM
 #7920

But the meaning of a decentralized exchange has been set again.


A majority of stakeholders have to agree on the fork.  Without forking now, there will be a single entity that can make the blockchain fork.  If we do fork now it takes away the power to do that.


Edit:  and I believe that, in this case, there is a general agreement among stakeholders to fork.
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