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Author Topic: [ANN][VRC] VeriCoin Proof of Stake-Time Currency | New Roadmap Released  (Read 1346485 times)
Dadams
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July 14, 2014, 04:07:45 AM
 #8281

As stated before, there are 3 choices here.

1. Do nothing and let it play out as it plays out.
Vericoin could die. Price could crash if hacker sells and then rebound. Hacker could keep the coin and stake or attempt a majority attack.
Mintpal could die. Customers will expect to be reimbursed.
If either survives it will be because they deserve to.

2. Fork the blockchain to block the stolen coins and effectively destroy them.
Vericoin will survive. Hacker has no coins. No threat to system. Coin amount reduced, value goes up.
Mintpal customers lose, this is Mintpal and the hackers fault. Mintpal needs to reimburse.
Mintpal could die.

3. Roll back the blockchain to before the theft.
This seems to be the plan at the moment.
Mintpal bailed out. Customers happy in the short term.
Long term consequences? This is effectively a charge back and a bailout of a central authority that messed up.
It is not their fault they got hacked but just like it is never your fault if you get robbed. It is the criminals fault.
But if you are an exchange that advertises security and deals with other peoples money then you are accountable.



I personally would prefer option 1 even though I will lose money.
As soon as you mess with this you set a precedent.
I can imagine devs don't want to take this chance with something they have spent a lot of money and time on.
It is also not their fault. Fault here lies with customers who left so much on exchanges to day trade (mostly from greed).
Fault is with Mintpal for lax security. Fault is with the hacker for being a criminal and a cancer on society.

If option 1 is unthinkable for dev, then option number 2 makes way more sense to me.
They lose nothing. Community who did not keep all their money on Mintpal lose nothing.
Mintpal loses, hacker loses.

Option nr 3 concerns me and I think a lot of people in cryptocurrency.
If you consider it in contrast to option 2, it is obviously a move to save Mintpal more than anything else.
It puts the legitimacy of the currency in question to save a single business entity.
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July 14, 2014, 04:07:56 AM
 #8282

Common sense with the right morals > Cold-hard principles/rules

So basically it's OK and "morally just" for a central agency to decide when the rules and principles of crypto can be broken.
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July 14, 2014, 04:08:31 AM
 #8283

Fuck U PATRICK! ........i have no respect for u ...........I will not be updating my wallet you faggot bitch  

This is an example of what will happen.

@VRC developers you will have people who will not update their clients nor miners.

This is a split in the chain as I wouldn't update either if I was a user.

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July 14, 2014, 04:09:27 AM
 #8284



Any bank compromised of 2 million USD that was discovered hours later would not be resolved as easy. This is BIG news for the financial industry, and probably annoying to the technology purists who want you to care about there next anon feature, or the paranoid banker people.

This is what a coin will need to break the mold, and current stigmas and go mainstream. I bet on it

You are a complete retard.  VRC's dev team's actions have centralized and compromised the integrity of it's blockchain, period.  How do you not understand this?  What they have chosen to do is in fact a bad thing, not a good thing.

It may be a "lesser of two evils" (though that very is debatable), but it is still evil, nonetheless.

+1 this coin is done for
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July 14, 2014, 04:10:06 AM
 #8285

Common sense with the right morals > Cold-hard principles/rules

So basically it's OK and "morally just" for a central agency to decide when the rules and principles of crypto can be broken.

I know of a lot of people who think crypto is stupid, but love the blockchain, I am one of them, All you nuts out there need to realize people dont care for your stupid algo's and never will, all they want to do is buy something easy and not get hacked and shit stolen from them.

Computers make them uneasy, and for good reason. Look at all you crypto champions, wishing theft upon people to save your thesis. Taking that over a real world use that has benefits to save your purist view, so sad.

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July 14, 2014, 04:10:11 AM
 #8286

No they picked the worse of two evils, they just proved this coin is completely centralized crypto and it will screw over countless innocent people.

How do you figure that a theft of VRC from an exchange is evidence of VRC being centralised? It was stolen from an exchange, not from a VRC services.

VRC is still a decentralised currency. If this had occurred from a service provided by VRC then you'd have a point but it is nothing to do with VRC and everything to do with, again, trading-exchange weaknesses.



It isn't decentralized if one developer can make changes and have them pushed to the community. That is a modern version of Bankster Bail outs. This is the first CRYPTO BANK BAIL OUT. I'm calling it.

lol

Were you surprised to see your stolen 8 million Vericions disappear from your wallet out of thin air and back to the hands of its rightful owners? Good.
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July 14, 2014, 04:10:50 AM
 #8287

Given that about 30% of total VRC have been stolen and that 51% of staking coins are sufficient to gain control of the blockchain, I would guess that it is a pretty high possibility that use of the stolen coins to fork the chain would be successful. So, I understand why the devs would roll back the chain, as the loss of control would likely be permanent otherwise.

Now, about the viability of BC clone PoS coins, you've just seen a major weakness in an attack that didn't cost a lot with regard to fiat currency spent to accomplish it. Investors should think long and hard about what happened here, this could be a death blow to this type of PoS...

I agree this does put PoS coins in a bad light. Exchanges should not store more than a certain % in their hot wallets.

Instead of doing a PoW 51% attack just steal enough to do a 51% PoS attack.


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July 14, 2014, 04:10:58 AM
 #8288

I am a senior member in this bitcointalk forum, but I want to remain anonymous.
I noticed Vericoin discussion when go to Altcoin ANN, and here is some of my insight:

First, a few questions:

1. Did mintpal really lost Vericoin, because of being hacked?
After reading their official announcement, the information is rather vague. Is there a possibility that coins are withdrawn by some big bagholders? Is there possibility that coins are sold by Mintpal (or its personnel) to other people and then they want to reverse the transaction while not paying the money back?

2. Vericoin was hacked, while other coins, including Bitcoin, was intact. Is it because the problem of Vericoin blockchain, or because of the safety hazard in Mintpal?

3. Vericoin group decided to roll-back the blockchain, is this a result after a deliberate consideration, or not?

4. If a small Altcoin-Bitcoin exchange site get compromised, will the Vericoin team do the same thing to roll back?

Then a few insights:

Cryptocurrency is created to be de-centralized. By reversing some transactions through the intervention of development team, it goes against its initial objective.

Cryptocurrency is created to be not regulated by authorities, such as countries. What happened to Vericoin today goes against this objective, because it is controlled by an exchange site. Suppose someday a country authority send request to the Vericoin development team about some Vericoin is held by some bad guys and the authority request a hard fork to remove those Vericoins, or send those coins to the country authority, based on what happened, I doubt the team will say no.

my two satoshi


Nobody care to answer, I will leave, but the credit of Vericoin is compromised.
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July 14, 2014, 04:12:24 AM
 #8289



Any bank compromised of 2 million USD that was discovered hours later would not be resolved as easy. This is BIG news for the financial industry, and probably annoying to the technology purists who want you to care about there next anon feature, or the paranoid banker people.

This is what a coin will need to break the mold, and current stigmas and go mainstream. I bet on it

You are a complete retard.  VRC's dev team's actions have centralized and compromised the integrity of it's blockchain, period.  How do you not understand this?  What they have chosen to do is in fact a bad thing, not a good thing.

It may be a "lesser of two evils" (though that very is debatable), but it is still evil, nonetheless.

+1 this coin is done for

How many are you selling, you are putting a lot of real sell pressure on the market? Nope, just fud.. Cause you guys that *tried* to steal the money got worked by a community that stands up for whats right, not whats status quo.

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July 14, 2014, 04:12:57 AM
 #8290

Anyone who may have been mining at http://pool.vericoin.info/ should probably re-point their miners to a pool that is actually mining since this pool appears to have been brought down as well.  I may have missed the notice that the official Vericoin in-house mining operations that mine other coins and then trade for Vericoin was also going to be shutdown, but some sort of notice would have been nice.

While I understand that new Vericoin payouts from the selling of other mined coins would necessarily be delayed until the Vericoin markets were enabled again and the profits converted to Vericoin, that should not prevent the profitable mining of the non-Vericoin coins thus abandoning the miners using your pool and leaving them mining a big heaping helping of "Jack Squat".

Is MP going to compensate for lost mining time due to their lack of basic security protocols?

How about an official notification that the miners at this pool are currently sucking air!

Perhaps the VRC devs should compensate you for that lost mining time as well.

The VRC devs moved too quickly on this decision in my view. And users/miners like yourself are affected by this negatively. But they do not seem to care.

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July 14, 2014, 04:13:34 AM
 #8291

Lol do you really think Mintpal is going to shell out 1.5 Million Dollars to repay people for VRC losses?  That's right....  No they aren't.  So in essence VRC Developers are not covering for Mintpal because Mintpal will not repay them.  They are helping all those coin owners recover their coins.

I feel sorry for people who have such a twisted moral view they are not only happy to leave 8 Million worth of holders to flap in the breeze they will argue till they are blue in the face to make sure it happens.  I can only imagine what kind of real lives people like this have.  Pathetic.






Quote
VeriCoin security was not breached or compromised in any way.
Mintpal is a centralized storage solution. Because of this, it is more vulnerable to attacks such as the one that has occured. https://support.mintpal.com/index.php?module=announce&sec=view&id=17
In the best interest of VeriCoin, we have decided to revert the blockchain to a state immediately before the attack. This is not to protect MintPal from losses but rather to prevent a single entity from controlling 30% of the total supply, and to protect the VeriCoin users. Due to the way Proof of Stake operates, this quantity of coin could potentially attack the blockchain. To be clear, the coins that are on the Mintpal exchange are not owned by Mintpal but rather V!eriCoins owned by users.
Two Scenarios if you are a VeriCoin investor:
I. Your VeriCoins were stored in the VeriCoin wallet s ince 2AM EST 7/13/14
1. You are completely unaffected by this breach. Staking your VeriCoin in the wallet is the best decentralized solution.
II. Your VeriCoin was in an exchange after 2AM EST 7/13/14
A. In the best interest of VeriCoin Investors, the solution is to have the theft reversed. This is being done to
preserve decentralization of the blockchain due to the number of coins that were stolen.
1. Reversal of the theft is done by pin-pointing when the breach in Mintpal's security system occurred and
forking the blockchain prior to that point.
a) Reversal of the blockchain is not the preferred action but it vastly minimizes the loss to the
VeriCoin investors.
2. Mintpal will be reimbursing other exchanges and VeriCoin traders on their exchange for any
transactions that were made and lost since 2AM EST 7/13/14 due to the theft reversal process.
a) Mintpal will be going through each individual transaction line by line and compiling a list of
addresses to reimburse the VeriCoin investors.
b) This process will take time. Contact Mintpal or the exchange that you were using to trade VeriCoin
with any questions or concerns.
(1) Mintpal will be reimbursing their traders and will be reimbursing other exchanges so that those
exchanges can reimburse their traders as well.
(2) This is the Mintpal support link: https://support.mintpal.com/index.php?
module=tickets&sec=submit.step2&department=1
III. After the new wallet is released, the blockchain will continue from prior to when the Mintpal Security System was
breached.
_!_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________
First and foremost, our goal is to protect our VeriCoin community. This was not a security breach on our end, however we are working in conjunction with Mintpal to make sure our investors are reimbursed. We will continue to ensure that our blockchain is protected and provide answers to any questions you may have.
In the wake of this unfortunate attempt to weaken VeriCoin, we will rise stronger as a community, as investors, as s!takeholders and people!
Thank you for your continued support and patience during this time. The VeriCoin Team
Patrick Nosker, Douglas Pike and David Boehm

Last time I checked it wasn't the developer's job to protect their users. Users are supposed to do their own due diligence and protect themselves.

In essence Mintpal is a USER of Vericoin and thus the developers are protecting them. Total contradiction of logic there by the person who wrote this statement.
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July 14, 2014, 04:13:38 AM
 #8292

wall of text


FUD

you are spreading FUD. i'm gonna call you FUDams from now on

take that!

whoever sells below 29k now must be a complete retard....
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July 14, 2014, 04:14:01 AM
 #8293



Any bank compromised of 2 million USD that was discovered hours later would not be resolved as easy. This is BIG news for the financial industry, and probably annoying to the technology purists who want you to care about there next anon feature, or the paranoid banker people.

This is what a coin will need to break the mold, and current stigmas and go mainstream. I bet on it

You are a complete retard.  VRC's dev team's actions have centralized and compromised the integrity of it's blockchain, period.  How do you not understand this?  What they have chosen to do is in fact a bad thing, not a good thing.

It may be a "lesser of two evils" (though that very is debatable), but it is still evil, nonetheless.

+1 this coin is done for

How many are you selling, you are putting a lot of real sell pressure on the market? Nope, just fud.. Cause you guys that *tried* to steal the money got worked by a community that stands up for whats right, not whats status quo.


I don't know how much FUDDER get paid by other devs to spread fud here ? 3 bc/hour ? Any tough ?



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buy4crypto
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July 14, 2014, 04:14:13 AM
 #8294

Anyone who may have been mining at http://pool.vericoin.info/ should probably re-point their miners to a pool that is actually mining since this pool appears to have been brought down as well.  I may have missed the notice that the official Vericoin in-house mining operations that mine other coins and then trade for Vericoin was also going to be shutdown, but some sort of notice would have been nice.

While I understand that new Vericoin payouts from the selling of other mined coins would necessarily be delayed until the Vericoin markets were enabled again and the profits converted to Vericoin, that should not prevent the profitable mining of the non-Vericoin coins thus abandoning the miners using your pool and leaving them mining a big heaping helping of "Jack Squat".

Is MP going to compensate for lost mining time due to their lack of basic security protocols?

How about an official notification that the miners at this pool are currently sucking air!

Perhaps the VRC devs should compensate you for that lost mining time as well.

The VRC devs moved too quickly on this decision in my view. And users/miners like yourself are affected by this negatively. But they do not seem to care.

Mining VeriCoin is through wallet VIA POS. If you wish to mine it they have 1 pool open with about 30 people in it at a time, Fud on!

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July 14, 2014, 04:15:04 AM
 #8295

Anyone who may have been mining at http://pool.vericoin.info/ should probably re-point their miners to a pool that is actually mining since this pool appears to have been brought down as well.  I may have missed the notice that the official Vericoin in-house mining operations that mine other coins and then trade for Vericoin was also going to be shutdown, but some sort of notice would have been nice.

While I understand that new Vericoin payouts from the selling of other mined coins would necessarily be delayed until the Vericoin markets were enabled again and the profits converted to Vericoin, that should not prevent the profitable mining of the non-Vericoin coins thus abandoning the miners using your pool and leaving them mining a big heaping helping of "Jack Squat".

Is MP going to compensate for lost mining time due to their lack of basic security protocols?

How about an official notification that the miners at this pool are currently sucking air!

Perhaps the VRC devs should compensate you for that lost mining time as well.

The VRC devs moved too quickly on this decision in my view. And users/miners like yourself are affected by this negatively. But they do not seem to care.


moving quick = less transactions being undone = minimal damage
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July 14, 2014, 04:16:11 AM
 #8296

If Hard Fork is done VRC will be used as toilet paper................DEVS DONT HAVE FINAL SAY 51% WILL WIN ...............if devs had fork and we dont update wallets them it will not fork

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the thieves control roughly 30% of the wallets, and presumably they will not update, does this mean that for the hard fork to go through, it will take roughly 72% of the remaining wallets to agree to the fork?  This seems like a really high percentage to expect to vote yes on this.

Um, I don't think there's a vote.  I think the dev's already decided that this is what needs to be done.

Developers cannot unilaterally fork a thing unless over half the wallets agree.  30% of the wallets are going to be against the fork already, making the 51% target much harder to reach.  Or am I wrong?

I'd like to know the answer to this.

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July 14, 2014, 04:18:01 AM
 #8297


2. Fork the blockchain to block the stolen coins and effectively destroy them.
Vericoin will survive. Hacker has no coins. No threat to system. Coin amount reduced, value goes up.
Mintpal customers lose, this is Mintpal and the hackers fault. Mintpal needs to reimburse.
Mintpal could die.



Sorry, but I believe this option 2 doesn't exist at all.

How can you possibly admit that certain coins are invalid because they were stolen and not return them to their owners? It makes no sense whatsoever. You either ignore the crime or give them back to their owners.
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July 14, 2014, 04:18:08 AM
 #8298

wall of text


FUD

you are spreading FUD. i'm gonna call you FUDams from now on

take that!

Your group is strong tonight, you have a lot of anger against our community, I bet. Never has one stuck up to the criminals such as this.

It sets a precedent for the future of crypto, we can better use the technology to make it safer, and gain faster crypto adoption.


Really sorry for you guys that stole tonight thinking u get rich and kill your competition, but I hope you know, this is most likely the fuel vericoin needs to become a real competitor to bitcoin. If any coin can, its VeriCoin now, So for that I say thank you. Its just seperated itself from the crypto sea with this outcome. I hope you fudders know, you are witnessing greatness, and you don't even know it!


What that mintpal hack will accomplish, may have taken years to do in terms of media for a crypto this size.

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July 14, 2014, 04:18:53 AM
 #8299

This has the potential to ruin the coin or result in it coming back stronger than ever. We still hold the remaining 70% so as long as vericoin holders continue to be so active, we're just fine here. Also keep in mind that exchanges will definitely update to the new wallet, and quite a bit was being held in exchanges, so it's not quite as difficult as it appears to reach 51%.

Of course the exchanges are going to update it is their ass on the line and the devs are literally giving them a hand out by supporting the hard fork idea.

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July 14, 2014, 04:20:04 AM
 #8300

I am a senior member in this bitcointalk forum, but I want to remain anonymous.
I noticed Vericoin discussion when go to Altcoin ANN, and here is some of my insight:

First, a few questions:

1. Did mintpal really lost Vericoin, because of being hacked?
After reading their official announcement, the information is rather vague. Is there a possibility that coins are withdrawn by some big bagholders? Is there possibility that coins are sold by Mintpal (or its personnel) to other people and then they want to reverse the transaction while not paying the money back?

2. Vericoin was hacked, while other coins, including Bitcoin, was intact. Is it because the problem of Vericoin blockchain, or because of the safety hazard in Mintpal?

3. Vericoin group decided to roll-back the blockchain, is this a result after a deliberate consideration, or not?

4. If a small Altcoin-Bitcoin exchange site get compromised, will the Vericoin team do the same thing to roll back?

Then a few insights:

Cryptocurrency is created to be de-centralized. By reversing some transactions through the intervention of development team, it goes against its initial objective.

Cryptocurrency is created to be not regulated by authorities, such as countries. What happened to Vericoin today goes against this objective, because it is controlled by an exchange site. Suppose someday a country authority send request to the Vericoin development team about some Vericoin is held by some bad guys and the authority request a hard fork to remove those Vericoins, or send those coins to the country authority, based on what happened, I doubt the team will say no.

my two satoshi




As stated before, there are 3 choices here.

1. Do nothing and let it play out as it plays out.
Vericoin could die. Price could crash if hacker sells and then rebound. Hacker could keep the coin and stake or attempt a majority attack.
Mintpal could die. Customers will expect to be reimbursed.
If either survives it will be because they deserve to.

2. Fork the blockchain to block the stolen coins and effectively destroy them.
Vericoin will survive. Hacker has no coins. No threat to system. Coin amount reduced, value goes up.
Mintpal customers lose, this is Mintpal and the hackers fault. Mintpal needs to reimburse.
Mintpal could die.

3. Roll back the blockchain to before the theft.
This seems to be the plan at the moment.
Mintpal bailed out. Customers happy in the short term.
Long term consequences? This is effectively a charge back and a bailout of a central authority that messed up.
It is not their fault they got hacked but just like it is never your fault if you get robbed. It is the criminals fault.
But if you are an exchange that advertises security and deals with other peoples money then you are accountable.



nvminer: I don't think there is much rational discussion going on in this thread at the moment.
There are a few who are posting their concern for what this means in the light of what cryptos mean to them.
There are a few who are concerned about their private investments and trying to keep the hype and spin up by silencing what they think is FUD.
The problem is they don't see that it could also be investors who see this from a different angle in longer term game and are actually trying to protect the infrastructure.

We have not had a discussion from the dev team, just and update on their plans.
I have a lot of sympathy for them and I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.
If you were dev, how do you think you would handle this?
Personally I think I would probably capitulate and make a blockchain change but go with option 2 as mentioned above.
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