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Author Topic: [ANN][VRC] VeriCoin Proof of Stake-Time Currency | New Roadmap Released  (Read 1347503 times)
eiskalt
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July 13, 2014, 10:44:28 PM
 #7961

They said the fork is going to happen and that's probably the best course of action for the coin. My concern is that in the rush to get the fork done there will not be sufficient communications from the dev team and key stakeholders. I run several public VRC nodes with lots of connections. What can I be doing to make sure the fork is successful? Should I shut my nodes down now or leave them running? Do I just need to download/compile/restart when the new code becomes available? Is there anything else I can do to help the network converge onto the correct chain? I hope this doesn't turn into a DRK style fork where the key people think everything is fine but everyone else is seeing random forks all over the place. Some clear communication from the key people would be great, I'm ready to help--just let me know how.

Send me an email, pnosker@vericoin.info. You will need to reclone/compile.

All hail the protection of the middlemen.
God protect our bankers.
God protect our exchangers and money lenders.
God protect our daytraders and manipulators.

Finally someone said this.

You do not like it, when the thieve robs an empty bag?
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July 13, 2014, 10:45:51 PM
 #7962

It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto makes it pretty clear now.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.

Decentralized (peer-to-peer) exchanges are the way forward. Would be awesome if VRC devs could implement this.
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July 13, 2014, 10:46:27 PM
 #7963

At some point a blockchain technology will have a centralized nature, and people will benefit from it.

I bet you half the people who say the world centralized do not have a clue what it means, or what its implications are.

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foodies123
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July 13, 2014, 10:46:44 PM
 #7964

What happens to the people who bought/sold outside of mintpal after the rollback ?

Also what if this happens again ? another rollback ? plugging the holes in a ship doesn't make it a better ship if it's still made out of shit.

nope
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July 13, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
 #7965

and what we learn from this? only use decentralized exchanger like http://blackhalo.info/
and thats why blackcoin is the future Kiss Grin
Dadams
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July 13, 2014, 10:47:28 PM
 #7966


It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto in it's current state it's pretty clear now.
Not ready for a trustless system.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.


Satoshi Nakamoto did thankfully.


Rollback will be the death of Vericoin.

Fork making the stolen coins disappear would be bad as well but better than a rollback.
If the aim is to stop the thief from profiting then that would work as well.

Rollback would be better for Mintpal.
In a fork I would expect them to work hard to pay for their security lapse and pay back their customers.
chunkyjunkie
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July 13, 2014, 10:48:15 PM
 #7967



So Bitcoin is broken a hundred times, you should sell them all.

By the way, the exchange system is decentralized. You seem to have a different definition of central and decentral as everyone else here has.

And you are legitimizing theft, as all hardcore anarchists do. Theft is a crime which cannot be allowed in a civil society.

Centralized = Mintpal in this scenario. A central agency, a single point of failure trusted with a large amount of coin.
Decentralized = peer to peer trading.

Simple.

By trying to erase the theft you are protecting the system that makes thieving like this possible.
Is this the long term solution? Everytime there is a theft roll it back?
How many roll backs? Who decides? How the hell do we ever use this for a currency if thats gonna be the case?

If you roll back you make this happening again way more likely.
You make it inevitable. Making the next rollback inevitable.
By not rolling back you force to find another solution. This way we move forward. Not backward.


LOL mintpal having a hot wallet with 8 million coins in it was the problem, nothing else.  Period.

If they had been responsible no hard fork would have happened and mintpal would be taking a 20% haircut on a properly used hot wallet.

Good thing going forward?  Mintpal will be using hot wallets correctly I assume for any pos coins they trade.

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July 13, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
 #7968

and what we learn from this? only use decentralized exchanger like http://blackhalo.info/
and thats why blackcoin is the future Kiss Grin

Do you have any idea how foul it is to post this on the Vericoin thread at this time?  Go hide.
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July 13, 2014, 10:49:10 PM
 #7969

It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto makes it pretty clear now.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.

Decentralized (peer-to-peer) exchanges are the way forward. Would be awesome if VRC devs could implement this.

+1. Trust the group, not the boss.
chunkyjunkie
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July 13, 2014, 10:49:31 PM
 #7970


It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto in it's current state it's pretty clear now.
Not ready for a trustless system.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.


Satoshi Nakamoto did thankfully.


Rollback will be the death of Vericoin.

Fork making the stolen coins disappear would be bad as well but better than a rollback.
If the aim is to stop the thief from profiting then that would work as well.

Rollback would be better for Mintpal.
In a fork I would expect them to work hard to pay for their security lapse and pay back their customers.

You still don't get or ignore the fact that 8 million coins staking would cause a 51% attack.  Are you thick?  There is no choice

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July 13, 2014, 10:49:54 PM
 #7971

All these experts are now coming out giving their opinions.  Roll Eyes I bet they do not own 1 damm coin.

What would you like to happen? Do nothing and let some Thief own a major chunk and get away with millions which as result will tank the coin. (considering the amount of Fud this coin has been getting, i am sure that is the underlying plan)  -  Honestly Tell that to the people who lost their money

The dev team stepped up, and surely will get my support once the market opens up

Mintpal should ideally do the same.

Do not rejoice in the suffering of others
buy4crypto
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July 13, 2014, 10:50:34 PM
 #7972

They said the fork is going to happen and that's probably the best course of action for the coin. My concern is that in the rush to get the fork done there will not be sufficient communications from the dev team and key stakeholders. I run several public VRC nodes with lots of connections. What can I be doing to make sure the fork is successful? Should I shut my nodes down now or leave them running? Do I just need to download/compile/restart when the new code becomes available? Is there anything else I can do to help the network converge onto the correct chain? I hope this doesn't turn into a DRK style fork where the key people think everything is fine but everyone else is seeing random forks all over the place. Some clear communication from the key people would be great, I'm ready to help--just let me know how.

Send me an email, pnosker@vericoin.info. You will need to reclone/compile.

All hail the protection of the middlemen.
God protect our bankers.
God protect our exchangers and money lenders.
God protect our daytraders and manipulators.

Finally someone said this.

You do not like it, when the thieve robs an empty bag?

The thieves are here among us. I can feel it. They are not happy to steal 2 million USD and then have the developers take that back. Someone, or some team out there went from scamming 2 million dollars, to having nothing but more anger towards the community for taking back its OWN money.

Haters out there are criminals for most part, and tech purists.

You would think a true community worried about advancing technology would support VeriCoin and its descision to help get it right, instead they (especially blackcoin people) keep using this as a promotion oppertunity for themselves. Think about it... Why VeriCoin?

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July 13, 2014, 10:50:39 PM
 #7973


This a call to action for decentralized exchanges being the rule not the exception! - Douglas Pike (@effectsToCause, VeriCoin Co-Creator/Developer)

https://twitter.com/effectsToCause/status/488379402133450752

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July 13, 2014, 10:51:56 PM
 #7974



So Bitcoin is broken a hundred times, you should sell them all.

By the way, the exchange system is decentralized. You seem to have a different definition of central and decentral as everyone else here has.

And you are legitimizing theft, as all hardcore anarchists do. Theft is a crime which cannot be allowed in a civil society.

Centralized = Mintpal in this scenario. A central agency, a single point of failure trusted with a large amount of coin.
Decentralized = peer to peer trading.

Simple.

By trying to erase the theft you are protecting the system that makes thieving like this possible.
Is this the long term solution? Everytime there is a theft roll it back?
How many roll backs? Who decides? How the hell do we ever use this for a currency if thats gonna be the case?

If you roll back you make this happening again way more likely.
You make it inevitable. Making the next rollback inevitable.
By not rolling back you force to find another solution. This way we move forward. Not backward.

Interesting question.
But I'm not sure it's clear that VRC is "saving" mintpal, anyways. It may fail, regardless and VRC will move on protecting its investors from the thieves and doesn't have to be behind mintpal. It's my understanding that VRC appears to be only working with mintpal to recover the coins... not try and engineer their bail-out.

Thoughts?
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July 13, 2014, 10:53:08 PM
 #7975

...
Ask yourself, if your other alts had this happen, what would the dev response have been?
...

Pos 2.0 rat4 (Blackcoin core dev) developed system to rappel such attacks or make it REALY hard to do...
But whole his idea was marginalized by VRC community as unnecessary because you don't need it...

http://www.blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf

A. Coin Age
In the PeerCoin protocol block generation is based on coin
age which is a factor that increases the weight of unspent coins
linearly over time; the proof that has to be provided together
with a new block and has to satisfy the following condition:
proofhash < coins · age
....

In short BC dev did:
CHANGES IN THE PROTOCOL
-A. Taking the Coin Age out of the equation.
-B. Changing the Stake Modifier
-C. Block Timestamp Rules

this took him months of work and few thousands lines of code
to solve your attack problems like you can suffer now
if you will read whitepaper correctly you will find solution how prevent 30%
of coins ruling whole POS network that is why he called it POS 2.0 ...
it soved in simply way one of POS problems


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h0lybyte
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July 13, 2014, 10:54:24 PM
 #7976

This is definitely an interesting debate, is it worth doing a hard fork or not? Furthermore, what If I dump my coins right now or sell them? Then if we hard fork, are you going to hard fork those 8 million coins out of the said address and into the hands of mintpal? Furthermore, what prevents the person with 8mil coins from mixing and selling them at other exchanges?

I am very interested in seeing how this plays out.

Also having that many coins in a PoS system.. isnt that just asking for 51% attacks?

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buy4crypto
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July 13, 2014, 10:55:09 PM
 #7977


It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto in it's current state it's pretty clear now.
Not ready for a trustless system.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.


Satoshi Nakamoto did thankfully.


Rollback will be the death of Vericoin.

Fork making the stolen coins disappear would be bad as well but better than a rollback.
If the aim is to stop the thief from profiting then that would work as well.

Rollback would be better for Mintpal.
In a fork I would expect them to work hard to pay for their security lapse and pay back their customers.

You still don't get or ignore the fact that 8 million coins staking would cause a 51% attack.  Are you thick?  There is no choice

Its not that it would, under the right circumstances its feasable.

Is it likely no?

But its very nice for a conspirary theorist to play on.

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eiskalt
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July 13, 2014, 10:55:27 PM
 #7978



So Bitcoin is broken a hundred times, you should sell them all.

By the way, the exchange system is decentralized. You seem to have a different definition of central and decentral as everyone else here has.

And you are legitimizing theft, as all hardcore anarchists do. Theft is a crime which cannot be allowed in a civil society.

Centralized = Mintpal in this scenario. A central agency, a single point of failure trusted with a large amount of coin.
Decentralized = peer to peer trading.

Simple.

By trying to erase the theft you are protecting the system that makes thieving like this possible.
Is this the long term solution? Everytime there is a theft roll it back?
How many roll backs? Who decides? How the hell do we ever use this for a currency if thats gonna be the case?

If you roll back you make this happening again way more likely.
You make it inevitable. Making the next rollback inevitable.
By not rolling back you force to find another solution. This way we move forward. Not backward.

Exactly what happened with all these bitcoin thefts, right?

The opposite is true, you don´t discourage fraudsters by a laissez-faire approach.

And again: hardfork does not mean moving backwards, in fact it means moving forward. It is an ability of the technology and it is right to use this ability to discourage theft.
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July 13, 2014, 10:57:13 PM
 #7979


It's pretty obvious at this point money cannot exist without some central trust.
Day in and day out watching crypto in it's current state it's pretty clear now.
Not ready for a trustless system.

If someone finds a better way... go invent it - be my guest.


Satoshi Nakamoto did thankfully.


Rollback will be the death of Vericoin.

Fork making the stolen coins disappear would be bad as well but better than a rollback.
If the aim is to stop the thief from profiting then that would work as well.

Rollback would be better for Mintpal.
In a fork I would expect them to work hard to pay for their security lapse and pay back their customers.

You still don't get or ignore the fact that 8 million coins staking would cause a 51% attack.  Are you thick?  There is no choice

There is always a choice.
The best "tech purist" choice? Leave it be and see what happens.
Bitcoin designed so that it is not in anyones best interest to break.
If 51% attack is now possible, so easily done and in the best interest to abuse, then Vericoin is broken and should die.

Second choice:
Fork to destroy coins. This way no profit or control for thief.
People who had all their money on Mintpal to day trade lose out and learn a lesson.

Third choice:
Rollback.
You know how I feel about this.
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July 13, 2014, 10:58:09 PM
 #7980

MintPal fucked up... it's not the VRC community's responsibility to fix this.  MintPal needs to cover the lost coins out of their own pocket - PERIOD.

If the VRC devs try to push a roll back, this coin is worse then dead in the water.  Obviously, if a rollback like this is possible, the blockchain cannot be relied upon as a fixed ledger, and therefore the coin is useless.

Does this mean that VRC is not fungable because they regard the stolen coins as bad or tainted?

I do believe the fork is good for the "stock price" of the coin, due to the imminent probability of 8 million coins being dumped at any given time.
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