[ANN][VRC] VeriCoin Proof of Stake-Time Currency | New Roadmap Released

[Fippy]

Well, we're pretty well past this entire ordeal and the price is still holding north of 30k satoshi, despite three days of people predicting Vericoin's demise.

I really don't think it takes a doctorate in psychology to realize that the people still posting the "Vericoin is dead" crap in this thread have an ulterior motive.

[kicker]

How many rollbacks weve got?

Some coins are double spend (it was possible for me)

After the first rollback.
Withdraw MP -> sold on another exchange for btc. Transfered it to my wallet.

2nd rollback.
Got again my vrc coins at MP. Withdraw it and can sell it again on an exchange.


It was not my intention. Just sold it and again got my previous VRC coins on MP.

[Profetu]

What is it with blackcoin people and this thread? Each time I see someone troll vrc, they have a blackcoin sig.
Where do all you dummies come from? blackcoin is dead.
Anyways, it's the investors that lose money that usually find the passion to troll another thread related to their competitor.

I have 20+ diffrent crypto...from BTC, Doge, ANC ,BC, PPC, NEM....Bitshares like many people here,
rollback hurted all crypto not just one coin.

If not VRC it will be next coin like XC Clokac Cinni Voot.... INSERT name here another hype coin.

The reason i write here is simple all crypto was damaged...
and all POS coins mostly suffers by that rollback
Mainly it was Mintpal problem but full responsibility is not on Mintpal side
1/3 of all coins were deposited in one place - that is orgin of problem.

Give me 3 good reasons why all crypto was damaged.

- Merchants can be aware because transaction can be reversed in some emergency situation so better not trust new alts and stick with BTC
which can take 500m $ loss  (it breaks some trust rule )

- Bad exchange has not been punishment ( normally it can lead to MtGox 2.0 and collapse... )

- Shows how easy is "manipulate" people in crypto devlopers, Exchanges.
Real truth can be unknown forever. Did MtGox write truth before they collapsed? ( they lied till end... CR lied till end... )
Here could have been even inside deal between Mintpal and VRC dev and you won't never know about it...

Good and valid reasons.

What about the thief? Would it motivate more hackers to do it if they can always get away with it? Would this defer people from investing in crypto?

I beg to differ. Awful "reasons"

-"Merchants can be aware because transaction can be reversed in some emergency situation" when there is a party responsible that reimburses everyone affected. Way better than knowing the coin could die in case of a major attack.

-"Bad exchange has not been punishment" What are we? Religious people that fear the wrong doers will remain unpunished? There is no middle ground: they either loose 2 million and maybe go bust or they lose few money. They could though offer devs a bonus for their hard work and invest more money in security and audits.

- "Shows how easy is "manipulate" people in crypto devlopers, Exchanges." This was a clean "cut rollback" where the stolen coins were returned and everyone affected will be reimbursed. Way batter than creating an ice age where Mintpal goes bust or has to seize 20% of peoples money (I bet people would have loved this) to pay the debt like Polo did. Also you could have stayed on the old chain and buy coins from the hackers.

All alts are work in progress and since only a small group of people are developing the coins they are centralized from this point of view. At least for now.

What if? is all I hear..if there were 500k coins stolen most likely they wouldn't roll back. If 100k transactions happened in between they wouldn't roll back. If no entity was at fault or willing to reimburse people they wouldn't roll back.

I think it turned out to be a good decision considering the circumstances.

[majsta]

I can't withdraw my coins from mintpal. It says that status is confirmed but it is like that for few hours now. Did anyone managed to withdraw VRC from mintpal yet.

[Reavon]

What is it with blackcoin people and this thread? Each time I see someone troll vrc, they have a blackcoin sig.
Where do all you dummies come from? blackcoin is dead.
Anyways, it's the investors that lose money that usually find the passion to troll another thread related to their competitor.

I have 20+ diffrent crypto...from BTC, Doge, ANC ,BC, PPC, NEM....Bitshares like many people here,
rollback hurted all crypto not just one coin.

If not VRC it will be next coin like XC Clokac Cinni Voot.... INSERT name here another hype coin.

The reason i write here is simple all crypto was damaged...
and all POS coins mostly suffers by that rollback
Mainly it was Mintpal problem but full responsibility is not on Mintpal side
1/3 of all coins were deposited in one place - that is orgin of problem.

Give me 3 good reasons why all crypto was damaged.

- Merchants can be aware because transaction can be reversed in some emergency situation so better not trust new alts and stick with BTC
which can take 500m $ loss  (it breaks some trust rule )

- Bad exchange has not been punishment ( normally it can lead to MtGox 2.0 and collapse... )

- Shows how easy is "manipulate" people in crypto devlopers, Exchanges.
Real truth can be unknown forever. Did MtGox write truth before they collapsed? ( they lied till end... CR lied till end... )
Here could have been even inside deal between Mintpal and VRC dev and you won't never know about it...

Inside deal?...  Dude Satoshi gave us the block chains we can see a "deal"  in the block chain.  All you need is to read the block chain.  And I don't see a "deal"  in the block chain.  If you find one show it to us and we can discuss about it.
Unless you don't prove such "deal"  I will assume you are suffering from to less social attention and talking garbage.

[btminer8]

...
Good and valid reasons.

What about the thief? Would it motivate more hackers to do it if they can always get away with it? Would this defer people from investing in crypto?

Problem with thief is that you and me, we can not be sure if that was real thief or just stupid system bug.
Usually when such attack are there are dumps to 1sat ( WC 2x spend attack )...
Why only VRC was affected while BTC LTC was in cold wallet...
All loks more like inside bug of Mintpal  system than any theft for me.

We will never know if that was real thief or some inside mintpal altercation...
Once on poloniex was sold stolen (300 000) DRK for 5000sat coin recovered in 4 months getting 500x.
Same was with Gox and BTC when 10% of BTC was stolen.
Thefts can't kill good coin.
Reputation is much harder to get back.

PS: BTW Whales are same kind of thief's they pump coin and go away with BTC look at Doge manipulation to 300sat they never invest in any coin for real.
they want pump it and leave it after dump naive investors are burned. To many things re manipulated in crypto from price to announcements.

Agree that we are not sure is it a thief or system bug. Mintpal needs to be transparent about the nature of the hack & it's vulnerability.

"Thefts can't kill good coin."

I have to disagree with this. 30% of the coin supply is more then enough to do a 51% attack. Hardfork is a very difficult decision but a necessary one to save the coin. Damage was minimized. It is a win/win situation except the hacker.

[kicker]

I can't withdraw my coins from mintpal. It says that status is confirmed but it is like that for few hours now. Did anyone managed to withdraw VRC from mintpal yet.

Yes and hour ago. And it takes 2 hours. (manual withdraw)

[btminer8]

It is not like the developer team decided to hardfork the blockchain for personal gain.

Let's imagine a scenario when the developer team or a government did it for personal gain or political reasons. What would be the consequence?

What would you do if you own that coin?

Would the majority refuse to update the wallet?

Would a group of people to come forth and take over the development of the coin?

This is the nature and beauty of decentralised & open source network.

If you try to dictate and insist what a coin should do or not do, isn't that contradicting?

[majsta]

I can't withdraw my coins from mintpal. It says that status is confirmed but it is like that for few hours now. Did anyone managed to withdraw VRC from mintpal yet.

Yes and hour ago. And it takes 2 hours. (manual withdraw)

ok tnx, I set only few VRC to withdraw because I need to see is it working at all.

[buy4crypto]

Everyone is talking about how it can't be trusted, and how this clearly demonstates how insecure proof of share blockchains are.

Then, by that measure, 'everyone' is a misinformed idiot. The Bitcoin blockchain has been rolled back in its early history, too, but people didn't start screaming about teh injustice of it all and that it couldn't be trusted and, as has been pointed out numerous times, VRC is still a decentralised currency, if the majority of wallet holders didn't agree to the rollback then Pat and Mintpal would have found themselves sitting alone on their own little fork.

How does this issue relate to a PoS weakness?

BTW, VRC has value-added services which, at this time, are centralised, it doesn't mean to say that people don't value them or find them extremely useful. This rabid hysteria against VeriBit or VeriSend is absurd considering the naysayers are more than happy to use centralised point-of-sale webs services for transactions involving bitcoin.

This newb doesn't even know the difference between a hard-fork for technical reasons (flaw in core code allowing unintended block to be created), and a blockchain rollback for external reasons (bailing out an exchange).

The proof of share weakness is that VRC would have been an easy 51% target if the rollback fork had not been pushed.  That can't happen with a proof of share coin.  To 51% attack BTC or LTC, you need to invest in real hardware beyond reasonable means.  To 51% attack a proof of share (aka, proof of nothing) coin like VRC, you simply need steal a wallet.dat.  Therefore, VRC is reliant on internal security, for security - a deeply flawed concept.  Proof of share coins are secure external to the blockchain.

You don't think its just as easy to hack the people who already control 51% mining share?

Another scenario in which POW is NOT very safe. What if a new technology comes out with incredible hashing ability in the future and a nefarious party gets larger than ghash.io? What if a country decides to make a large bitcoin mining operation and take significant control of the minining network. BITCOIN and POW is not as secure as all those pointing the finger at POS would like to believe.


With POS you can see the money trail coming. You are supposed to buy coin so that way it would not make much practical sense for someone to be motivated to ruin there own investment.

This is a learning experience, just like all others. I feel it was a 1 off in VRC, and the devs said so to. We cannot determine if it was right / wrong yet without speculating. We need to hear from Mintpal on how they could let so much of a POS be vulnerable when it has the ability to severely impact there exchange, and your communities.

The conversation should be on mintpal, and other exchanges and how they should store/secure funds, or we need to find a way to trade securely without large centralized exchanges. Not about if what vericoin did was right it wrong. It did the only thing it could do in the face of extreme negligence by a trusted third party to the ENTIRE crypto community.

[buy4crypto]

It really would be nice for a statement from mintpal sometime VERY soon.

They are keeping uncertainty in the market by the silence on the situation.

We are owed some answers, and we would like them NOW Mintpal!

[buy4crypto]

What is it with blackcoin people and this thread? Each time I see someone troll vrc, they have a blackcoin sig.
Where do all you dummies come from? blackcoin is dead.
Anyways, it's the investors that lose money that usually find the passion to troll another thread related to their competitor.

I have 20+ diffrent crypto...from BTC, Doge, ANC ,BC, PPC, NEM....Bitshares like many people here,
rollback hurted all crypto not just one coin.

If not VRC it will be next coin like XC Clokac Cinni Voot.... INSERT name here another hype coin.

The reason i write here is simple all crypto was damaged...
and all POS coins mostly suffers by that rollback
Mainly it was Mintpal problem but full responsibility is not on Mintpal side
1/3 of all coins were deposited in one place - that is orgin of problem.

Suffer? Or we have a chance as crypto community to debate this and get it right?

Surely there is a better way than allowing theft, you would agree right? The technology allowed that to happen right? The community voted for the change in the end correct? This was the best thing to happen to the adoption of crypto in its history IMO.

While 10,000 coders, hackers, thieves, market manipulators, PnD crews, hardcore computer geeks will be upset, you will open the doors for billions of people who wish to know that it isn't the wild wild west anymore. And coins like vericoin are pushing the limits of the technology to where centralized / decentralized services can find harmony to work together with real world applications.

A purely decentralized form of crypto has never existed, and may never exist. You will need centralized services at some point if you wish to participate in crypto currency. Why not work on bringing these 2 together sensibly, instead of keeping them apart.

[btminer8]

It is not like the developer team decided to hardfork the blockchain for personal gain.

Let's imagine a scenario when the developer team or a government did it for personal gain or political reasons. What would be the consequence?

What would you do if you own that coin?

Would the majority refuse to update the wallet?

Would a group of people to come forth and take over the development of the coin?

This is the nature and beauty of decentralised & open source network.

If you try to dictate and insist what a coin should do or not do, isn't that contradicting?

To be fair all PPC POS builds are broken
and relay on centralized checkpoints servers
you have no freedom which client you will use
developer choose it for you(with exchanges i guess)...
that is why you need p2p exchanges markets projects like ( Bithalo/Blackhalo , Decentralized exchange counterparty to be able use currency on your own )
but 1st broken POS have to be fixed...

"centralized checkpoints servers"

Same as bitcoin and another other altcoin. They are call supernode. They are centralized.

What is stopping opposition from setting up checkpoints server if they decided not to follow the fork?

What is so difficult to change p2port of the wallet so each individual fork doesn't connect?

Yes i am excited for Bithalo and other decentralized exchange, as we are moving away from centralised exchange this would greatly reduce the risk of such problems for PoS coins.

[EtherCoin]

I can't withdraw my coins from mintpal. It says that status is confirmed but it is like that for few hours now. Did anyone managed to withdraw VRC from mintpal yet.

I moved some of my assets out of MintPal, among them, the VRCs, which took the most time to get to destination.

Opened a ticket but in around 1.5 hours I got the VRCs in the destination wallet.

If it has been several hours, I suggest you to open a ticket.

Eth.

[majsta]

I can't withdraw my coins from mintpal. It says that status is confirmed but it is like that for few hours now. Did anyone managed to withdraw VRC from mintpal yet.

I moved some of my assets out of MintPal, among them, the VRCs, which took the most time to get to destination.

Opened a ticket but in around 1.5 hours I got the VRCs in the destination wallet.

If it has been several hours, I suggest you to open a ticket.

Eth.

Just got them, after 2 hours of waiting. Now requested a lot more to withdraw. I will leave some VRC on mintpal but I want most of them in my wallet for now.

[buy4crypto]

...
Good and valid reasons.

What about the thief? Would it motivate more hackers to do it if they can always get away with it? Would this defer people from investing in crypto?

Problem with thief is that you and me, we can not be sure if that was real thief or just stupid system bug.
Usually when such attack are there are dumps to 1sat ( WC 2x spend attack )...
Why only VRC was affected while BTC LTC was in cold wallet...
All loks more like inside bug of Mintpal  system than any theft for me.

We will never know if that was real thief or some inside mintpal altercation...
Once on poloniex was sold stolen (300 000) DRK for 5000sat coin recovered in 4 months getting 500x.
Same was with Gox and BTC when 10% of BTC was stolen.
Thefts can't kill good coin.
Reputation is much harder to get back.

PS: BTW Whales are same kind of thief's they pump coin and go away with BTC look at Doge manipulation to 300sat they never invest in any coin for real.
they want pump it and leave it after dump naive investors are burned. To many things re manipulated in crypto from price to announcements.

You know the thief attempted to steal again after the first hack.

So, it wasn't "lost" as it wouldn't have been able to be transferred again after the first fork.

Additional forks where needed and implemented after to get back to a safe point due to the thieves attempt shortly after the fix, while other miners had yet to switch to new wallet.

Very little doubt that someone had 30% of the network and could have got them staked if it wasn't for the devs acting when they did. If they pulled off staking the 30% before the network switched to a new fork then VeriCoin would be dead and the whole crypto universe right now would be in a Mintgox situation. The developers did a amazing job in the days after the event. Very impressed with the team and how it reacted to such adversity.

This is the vision of what the blockchain can become. It can have integrity and prevent theft like we found out in the past few days. Now its up to crypto to kill the idea, or to champion it and find out a proper way to deal with major fraud, and theft. LIKE ANY CIVIL SOCIETY.

[keshuker]

It is not like the developer team decided to hardfork the blockchain for personal gain.

Let's imagine a scenario when the developer team or a government did it for personal gain or political reasons. What would be the consequence?

What would you do if you own that coin?

Would the majority refuse to update the wallet?

Would a group of people to come forth and take over the development of the coin?

This is the nature and beauty of decentralised & open source network.

If you try to dictate and insist what a coin should do or not do, isn't that contradicting?

Maybe you should ask the devs how much vrc they hold? You might be surprised I don't have more facts than pnosker showed some screenshot of his 500k+ wallet some weeks ago.
That might blur how objective they were just a "tad"

This was of course the true reason to do the rollback, not to lose any profits they have made. This is also the reason why most of VRC holders cheer the rollback. Or have you seen anyone not holding vrc, that would defend the rollback?

I had VRC on mintpal, but I would rather have lost my coins, tried to get MP to reimburse me than having a rollback that goes against everything in crypto

[mrkavasaki]

centralized exchanger are so 2013  

decentralized exchanger like http://blackhalo.info/, http://bithalo.org/ is the new shit!!

and thats why only bitcoin and blackcoin will go todamoon

[buy4crypto]

It is not like the developer team decided to hardfork the blockchain for personal gain.

Let's imagine a scenario when the developer team or a government did it for personal gain or political reasons. What would be the consequence?

What would you do if you own that coin?

Would the majority refuse to update the wallet?

Would a group of people to come forth and take over the development of the coin?

This is the nature and beauty of decentralised & open source network.

If you try to dictate and insist what a coin should do or not do, isn't that contradicting?

Maybe you should ask the devs how much vrc they hold? You might be surprised I don't have more facts than pnosker showed some screenshot of his 500k+ wallet some weeks ago.
That might blur how objective they were just a "tad"

This was of course the true reason to do the rollback, not to lose any profits they have made. This is also the reason why most of VRC holders cheer the rollback. Or have you seen anyone not holding vrc, that would defend the rollback?

I had VRC on mintpal, but I would rather have lost my coins, tried to get MP to reimburse me than having a rollback that goes against everything in crypto

If vericoin holders didn't like it, you think you'd see a little more volume and panic?

No, I think you're finding aside from the few that are vocally mad, the majority of normal folks will look at this as a huge step forward.

[btminer8]

Everyone is talking about how it can't be trusted, and how this clearly demonstates how insecure proof of share blockchains are.

Then, by that measure, 'everyone' is a misinformed idiot. The Bitcoin blockchain has been rolled back in its early history, too, but people didn't start screaming about teh injustice of it all and that it couldn't be trusted and, as has been pointed out numerous times, VRC is still a decentralised currency, if the majority of wallet holders didn't agree to the rollback then Pat and Mintpal would have found themselves sitting alone on their own little fork.

How does this issue relate to a PoS weakness?

BTW, VRC has value-added services which, at this time, are centralised, it doesn't mean to say that people don't value them or find them extremely useful. This rabid hysteria against VeriBit or VeriSend is absurd considering the naysayers are more than happy to use centralised point-of-sale webs services for transactions involving bitcoin.

This newb doesn't even know the difference between a hard-fork for technical reasons (flaw in core code allowing unintended block to be created), and a blockchain rollback for external reasons (bailing out an exchange).

The proof of share weakness is that VRC would have been an easy 51% target if the rollback fork had not been pushed.  That can't happen with a proof of share coin.  To 51% attack BTC or LTC, you need to invest in real hardware beyond reasonable means.  To 51% attack a proof of share (aka, proof of nothing) coin like VRC, you simply need steal a wallet.dat.  Therefore, VRC is reliant on internal security, for security - a deeply flawed concept.  Proof of share coins are secure external to the blockchain.

You don't think its just as easy to hack the people who already control 51% mining share?

Another scenario in which POW is NOT very safe. What if a new technology comes out with incredible hashing ability in the future and a nefarious party gets larger than ghash.io? What if a country decides to make a large bitcoin mining operation and take significant control of the minining network. BITCOIN and POW is not as secure as all those pointing the finger at POS would like to believe.


With POS you can see the money trail coming. You are supposed to buy coin so that way it would not make much practical sense for someone to be motivated to ruin there own investment.

This is a learning experience, just like all others. I feel it was a 1 off in VRC, and the devs said so to. We cannot determine if it was right / wrong yet without speculating. We need to hear from Mintpal on how they could let so much of a POS be vulnerable when it has the ability to severely impact there exchange, and your communities.

The conversation should be on mintpal, and other exchanges and how they should store/secure funds, or we need to find a way to trade securely without large centralized exchanges. Not about if what vericoin did was right it wrong. It did the only thing it could do in the face of extreme negligence by a trusted third party to the ENTIRE crypto community.

Well... Satoshi can answer that for you

"June 17, 2010: The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime."

"July 16, 2010: SHA256 is not going to be broken by Moore’s law computational improvements in our lifetimes. If it’s going to get broken, it’ll be by some breakthrough cracking method. An attack that could so thoroughly vanquish SHA256 to bring it within computationally tractable range has a good chance of clobbering SHA512 too. If we see a weakness in SHA256 coming gradually, we can transition to a new hash function after a certain block number. Everyone would have to upgrade their software by that block number. The new software would keep a new hash of all the old blocks to make sure they’re not replaced with another block with the same old hash."