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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 885410 times)
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July 12, 2014, 05:14:31 PM
 #461

Yes, indeed... my comments were based on my read-thru of the latest github commits and the OP in this thread.
The fact that the lottery is an exponential decay function is exactly what I am asking that you explain properly in the OP.  Most people can't be expected to read or test the code to understand this, and I suggest that your explanations have been a bit overly simple so far.  How about a nice graph/chart showing the odds of different block rewards, along with a few more comments about how this is a positive thing?
Hardforks without detailed and well considered information about the effects of that hardfork are simply worrying.
~260 blocks left until lotto fork.

Phzi,

I am on a tablet, and thus not able to reference my notes concerning your math, but it seems quite accurate.  The exponential decay is so..... exponential.... to attempt to keep yearly inflation in line with previous targets, while providing incentive to folks (in as even a manner as possible) to stake.  One of our primary concerns since launch has been the rate and consistency with which the network has been staking blocks.  This update was in large part designed to attempt to help in that respect by providing a larger pool of people who have an interest in staking.

Is anyone in the community good with graphs?  To be completely honest, I have never rendered a line graph or such, but it would be helpful in visualizing the reward structure.  If anyone has noticed, we aren't exactly skilled with the whole marketing and visual aspect of this Tongue

It was never our intention to 'thrust' this upon everyone or make it feel as though it was without warning.  We had been promising this update, and hinting at it via twitter from sometime; in addition in Poloniex trollbox.  The code was set with block heights initially with block time estimates placing it squarely in Sunday evening.  Since then, the network has continued to grow and even after pushing it back 500 blocks, it appears our targets just aren't accurate as the stake time seems to continue to change.  The difference between 10 minutes block times and 2 minute block times on fork estimates is, well, drastic.

Ironically, it is exactly that problem that drove the fork itself - an unhealthy crypto network is a vulnerable crypto network.  Any 'use' requires a stable, consistent stake time...  It was our hope that providing a decent incentive to smaller holders (which the majority of claimers are likely to be, and given their output age are likely to stake almost immediately upon importing) they would see the immediate 'reasonable' stake in their wallets and share some of our excitement for CLAMS -> hopefully, getting involved in the community instead of dumping their 'share' and moving onward.  The choice of an exponential decay function was quite simple, as we are not a fan of inflation.  We saw it as the only way to provide the opportunity and powerful incentive of large gains, which will hopefully get folks involved in the network, while at the same time maintaining a reasonable inflation rate.

One of our major problems right now is: How do we get friends who claim their CLAMS to stick around, get involved, participate in the network and increase security and consistency, instead of claiming their CLAMS, dumping them, and moving on.  We saw this lottery update as a step in the direction of solving that issue.

Will be back a bit later - I hope that helps a bit in framing some our thoughts behind the entire issue,

Yours Truly,
SuperCLAM.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
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July 12, 2014, 07:48:11 PM
 #462

I'm trying to stake, but the client says the coins aren't "mature".

8 hours, right?

Minimum Stake Age: 8 Hours

Mine took longer than 8 hours. From what I could tell maybe twice as long. If it tells you your stake reward is in 20 minutes, wait 20 minutes and it might say 15.

Then again, I'm not a CLAMillionaire. So I don't know if that's the reason. But it appears the averages could be optimized.
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July 12, 2014, 08:54:57 PM
 #463

I'm trying to stake, but the client says the coins aren't "mature".

8 hours, right?

Minimum Stake Age: 8 Hours

Mine took longer than 8 hours. From what I could tell maybe twice as long. If it tells you your stake reward is in 20 minutes, wait 20 minutes and it might say 15.

Then again, I'm not a CLAMillionaire. So I don't know if that's the reason. But it appears the averages could be optimized.

8 hours is really just an estimate based on how long it takes to reach maturity. The block maturity is 500, so 510 (10 for confirmation) blocks after you put the Clams in your wallet the green light should come on and staking should begin. The block times have been slower then then should be which is why it would have taken more then 8 hours. 

Also, from my understanding the 'stake reward time' is just an estimation calculated from your weight and the network weight. It can be pretty inaccurate (from experience), especially with growing networks like Clam's

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July 12, 2014, 11:13:44 PM
 #464

Is this normal?



All I tried to do was start the client. Was running fine last night.

Edit - Uninstalled and reinstalled - nothing. Copy CLAM data folder (appdata). Delete original, starts ok. Shut it down and replace blkxxx.dat and wallet.dat with backups.

And, success. Somewhat - it opens but looks like the wallet is frozen but still dealing with files. I guess the problem was my computer crashed in the middle of the night.

Well, I've left it on all day, but it's still frozen. The data files (logs, chain etc) are still being wrote to disk in realtime, it's just the damn thing's frozen (and will get an end program dialog if i click it's window). Wonder if I'm still staking.


Delete everything but wallet.dat
If it fails to start or freezes then your wallet.dat most likely is corrupted.
Make frequent backups.
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July 12, 2014, 11:19:01 PM
 #465

Too late to get some clams? I'm hungry.

 Huh

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July 12, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
 #466

Too late to get some clams? I'm hungry.

 Huh

right on time.... Smiley
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July 13, 2014, 12:07:51 AM
 #467

So, you have 2,335/1,000,000 odds (467/200,000) of hitting a lotto block.

Must have been my head that was the problem, then. I assumed (wrongly) that the reward for every block would vary. Thanks for the math to prove it.

I can now see some blocks that would have - if we were already on the lotto system - generated a reward higher than 0.1:

Code:
07/12/14 17:10:47 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=989474017103111cb636 seed=17943395 random=2129073648 randCoefficient=0.991427176 nCoefficient=0.000000000 nSubsidy=0.10000001
07/12/14 19:04:53 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=ad6472e8b0fa20a17657 seed=34215781 random=2143547323 randCoefficient=0.998167006 nCoefficient=0.004070347 nSubsidy=4.16993978
07/12/14 19:08:11 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=22dd16b4b37f1493c1ec seed=21576734 random=2134171368 randCoefficient=0.993800987 nCoefficient=0.000000008 nSubsidy=0.10000792

I'll wait until the fork to confirm that I've properly matched hashes and blocks, but I'll repeat my concern: it appears to be possible to calculate the reward in advance, therefore it is simple to add a conditional to only try to mint PoS when it's worth it.
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July 13, 2014, 12:27:21 AM
 #468

Too late to get some clams? I'm hungry.
 Huh
right on time.... Smiley

Indeed; right on time indeed Grin



Must have been my head that was the problem, then. I assumed (wrongly) that the reward for every block would vary. Thanks for the math to prove it.
I can now see some blocks that would have - if we were already on the lotto system - generated a reward higher than 0.1:
I'll wait until the fork to confirm that I've properly matched hashes and blocks, but I'll repeat my concern: it appears to be possible to calculate the reward in advance, therefore it is simple to add a conditional to only try to mint PoS when it's worth it.

Likely a very reasonable concern, as I have previously mentioned.  
We never claimed to be perfect  Shocked Grin

Remember though, lottery blocks are quite rare and the standard reward of 0.1 likely accounts for quite a decent percentage on most outputs considering it can be staked every 8 hours.  It wouldn't take many missed attempts to quickly erode the gains you might make from such a strategy.  We have been looking at ways to utilize a system where the current block's reward coinStake is signable by the previous block's creator - essentially requiring a double stake to have any influence.  There are concerns with using the current block, as 'choosing' not to stake could have similar repercussions in that situation as well.

In the meantime, we will continue to improve the CLAMClient; thank users like yourself for identifying possible concerns so that we know where we need to improve; and keep-on-clammin'.

We anticipate some type of improvement to the randomization system in the next update.  
You seem knowledgeable... Sure would be priceless to get the community involved in the project on git.

A better CLAMClient benefits us all,

SuperCLAM.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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July 13, 2014, 12:46:50 AM
 #469

100 Blocks to the Lottery Update Fork.

Blocks are crawling.... Sad

This is precisely why we wanted to increase the incentive to consistently stake on the network....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
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July 13, 2014, 01:21:07 AM
 #470

So, you have 2,335/1,000,000 odds (467/200,000) of hitting a lotto block.

Must have been my head that was the problem, then. I assumed (wrongly) that the reward for every block would vary. Thanks for the math to prove it.

I can now see some blocks that would have - if we were already on the lotto system - generated a reward higher than 0.1:

Code:
07/12/14 17:10:47 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=989474017103111cb636 seed=17943395 random=2129073648 randCoefficient=0.991427176 nCoefficient=0.000000000 nSubsidy=0.10000001
07/12/14 19:04:53 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=ad6472e8b0fa20a17657 seed=34215781 random=2143547323 randCoefficient=0.998167006 nCoefficient=0.004070347 nSubsidy=4.16993978
07/12/14 19:08:11 DebugProofOfStakeReward hash=22dd16b4b37f1493c1ec seed=21576734 random=2134171368 randCoefficient=0.993800987 nCoefficient=0.000000008 nSubsidy=0.10000792

I'll wait until the fork to confirm that I've properly matched hashes and blocks, but I'll repeat my concern: it appears to be possible to calculate the reward in advance, therefore it is simple to add a conditional to only try to mint PoS when it's worth it.


I think you might be able to migrate the problem by setting a maxium stake time and resetting it once it reached the max. It would make staking more competitive (I think) and not really allow you to just sit around and not submit your blocks.  If you were to wait to long then the advantage of not submitting would be lost as you would be on the same level as everyone when the reward block came around, giving you no advantage.

Its just an ideaI had, might not work.

thoughts?

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July 13, 2014, 01:50:38 AM
 #471

block 33920 now

dont forget to update wallet and go clamming for pearls

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July 13, 2014, 02:46:04 AM
 #472

block 33920 now

dont forget to update wallet and go clamming for pearls

Clams and pearls... is like krill and seals...

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July 13, 2014, 03:04:11 AM
 #473

block 33920 now
dont forget to update wallet and go clamming for pearls
Clams and pearls... is like krill and seals...

Only 30 Blocks to the Update Smiley Grin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
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July 13, 2014, 03:52:47 AM
 #474

When I click the link for the Windows wallet update 1.4.2b, I get this as a file download: CLAMClient_1.4.2b_Windows.tar.gz. Is this incorrect, or am I doing something wrong?

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T O K E N  -  A S  -  A  -  S E R V I C E

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July 13, 2014, 04:19:50 AM
 #475

When I click the link for the Windows wallet update 1.4.2b, I get this as a file download: CLAMClient_1.4.2b_Windows.tar.gz. Is this incorrect, or am I doing something wrong?

Not at all, it is compressed to make it download quicker.
Most standard decompression programs should work (7zip, etc.).

If you still can't figure it out, I am happy to package up a zip file for folks!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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July 13, 2014, 04:20:24 AM
 #476

We are officially staking lottery blocks!

Woohoo!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
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July 13, 2014, 04:26:42 AM
 #477

When I click the link for the Windows wallet update 1.4.2b, I get this as a file download: CLAMClient_1.4.2b_Windows.tar.gz. Is this incorrect, or am I doing something wrong?

Not at all, it is compressed to make it download quicker.
Most standard decompression programs should work (7zip, etc.).

If you still can't figure it out, I am happy to package up a zip file for folks!

I shall install 7Zip. It was the only computer on which I didn't have it installed!! Figures. Thanks!

██████████████     ██████████████     ██████████████     ██████████████
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T O K E N  -  A S  -  A  -  S E R V I C E

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July 13, 2014, 05:04:37 AM
 #478

When I click the link for the Windows wallet update 1.4.2b, I get this as a file download: CLAMClient_1.4.2b_Windows.tar.gz. Is this incorrect, or am I doing something wrong?

Not at all, it is compressed to make it download quicker.
Most standard decompression programs should work (7zip, etc.).

If you still can't figure it out, I am happy to package up a zip file for folks!

I shall install 7Zip. It was the only computer on which I didn't have it installed!! Figures. Thanks!

Tongue



If anyone stakes a lottery block over 0.1 post in the forum here!

Let everyone see you basking in your CLAMS!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
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July 13, 2014, 06:00:27 AM
 #479

If anyone stakes a lottery block over 0.1 post in the forum here!

i don't see any way of telling whether my stake was over 0.1 or not, because the excess could be due to transaction fees.

But the first block I staked this evening when I got home appears to be a lottery block over 0.1:



One thing I'm confused about: it used to be that most blocks I staked gave me around 0.00015000 clam, but now the minimum reward is 0.10000000, which is about 700 times bigger. So how does the change not increase inflation?

Edit: it looks like *only* the first block I mined this evening has more than the minimum 0.1 rewards - all the extras are transaction fees.

See http://khashier.com:2750/block/d3e163be7ecb84fe387ad34b1f3a6e59604e263ab7875136f1a447503b18a95c which shows I got 0.10000116 instead of the usual 0.01000000!

I'm such a lottery winner! Wink

Just-Dice                 ██             
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July 13, 2014, 06:47:28 AM
 #480

If anyone stakes a lottery block over 0.1 post in the forum here!
i don't see any way of telling whether my stake was over 0.1 or not, because the excess could be due to transaction fees.
But the first block I staked this evening when I got home appears to be a lottery block over 0.1:

One thing I'm confused about: it used to be that most blocks I staked gave me around 0.00015000 clam, but now the minimum reward is 0.10000000, which is about 700 times bigger. So how does the change not increase inflation?
Edit: it looks like *only* the first block I mined this evening has more than the minimum 0.1 rewards - all the extras are transaction fees.
See http://khashier.com:2750/block/d3e163be7ecb84fe387ad34b1f3a6e59604e263ab7875136f1a447503b18a95c which shows I got 0.10000116 instead of the usual 0.01000000!
I'm such a lottery winner! Wink

LoL, Winner Winner, CLAMicken Dinner!

Okay, not 'huge', but a special block none-the-less Cheesy



The target of the network at launch was to hit ~1% yearly inflation based on the total money supply.
Of coarse, CLAMS is odd in that the total money supply is unknown.

If you assume that the majority of CLAMS are claimed at some unknown time in the future (Less non-retrievable coins of coarse), then the claiming of the coins would not be considered inflation -> they already exist on the chain and can be claimed at any given moment.  This isn't accurate. 

If you assume they will not be claimed, then the act of claiming the coins itself is a sort of inflation.  This isn't accurate either.

So which do you go with?
If you choose to not count the un-claimed coins, then estimates of "inflation" are entirely useless.  Many people claiming, or a large service claiming (such as Poloniex's giveaway) would entirely destroy any attempt at an estimate.
If you choose to count un-claimed coins, under the logic that they exist and could enter the system at any moment, then you greatly under estimate yearly inflation.

Frankly, it is a very difficult question; and there isn't really any "prior art" or standard way of dealing with it that we are aware of.
I am choosing to speak of it as if the CLAMS on chain are CLAMS in existence, because they can enter the money supply at any moment, and that is the only solid immovable reference point from which to function.

So, if you don't count CLAMS possible; you're yearly inflation numbers will be much higher than ~1%.
But then, you would also have to count every CLAM claimed as inflation - which we haven't established a way of getting a peg on yet.
In addition, the reward would become woefully inadequate to sustain the network, requiring another hard-fork immediately, with even a moderate spike in popularity (causing another wave of folks to "claim").

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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