[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[kbroadfoot]

Quick question:

I bought 1.5 CLAM from Polo and transferred it to my wallet... it is not staking either...

Do transferred coins have to go 510 confirmations to be considered 'mature' as well? ( for staking purposes )

[phzi]

Quick question:

I bought 1.5 CLAM from Polo and transferred it to my wallet... it is not staking either...

Do transferred coins have to go 510 confirmations to be considered 'mature' as well? ( for staking purposes )

Some investigation is needed into exactly how mature coins need to be to stake.  4hr as listed in the OP doesn't appear to be correct.

[paulc010]

Quick question:

I bought 1.5 CLAM from Polo and transferred it to my wallet... it is not staking either...

Do transferred coins have to go 510 confirmations to be considered 'mature' as well? ( for staking purposes )

Yes, it'll be 510 confirmations until the arrow turns green and then a "while" yet before you get a reward. I don't pretend to understand the relationship between "difficulty", "weight" and "netstakeweight" though; nor how the number and "maturity" of coins affects it!

As a datapoint I transferred approx. 10 coins on 17/07/2014 00:36 and got 0.1CLAM mining reward on 18/07/2014 16:58.

[maccd123]

404 Clam REWARD!  http://khashier.com:2750/block/32e48075a661e0c1e49b682afb81df0dad4b95be7885d96e5e2f6ef525c2f32b
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[kbroadfoot]

Sigh! 

[ymod123]

404 Clam REWARD!  http://khashier.com:2750/block/32e48075a661e0c1e49b682afb81df0dad4b95be7885d96e5e2f6ef525c2f32b
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

wow congrat!

[nikos64]

404 Clam REWARD!  http://khashier.com:2750/block/32e48075a661e0c1e49b682afb81df0dad4b95be7885d96e5e2f6ef525c2f32b
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Error 404: Coins not found 

[kbroadfoot]

Much like POW mining pools, I bet there would be some sort of way to do a CLAM POS staking lottery pool....

Any ideas?

[kbroadfoot]

Basically we set up a 'public' staking wallet ( controlled by a trusted member ) Everyone who wants to participate sends like 2 Clams to it.

Say 40 people send 2 clams each... that's 80 clams staking.... you must stake for x-amount of time then you can withdraw your 2 clams + 1/40th of the profit. Or roll it over... then start the next enrollment period...

Perhaps we have open enrollment on the last day of the month, then end at the last day of the next month....

What you all think?

[dooglus]

Quick question:

I bought 1.5 CLAM from Polo and transferred it to my wallet... it is not staking either...

Do transferred coins have to go 510 confirmations to be considered 'mature' as well? ( for staking purposes )

The protocol allows you to stake a coin 4 hours after it was last transferred, but the wallet software won't try staking it until it has 510 confirmations.

I expect this is a bug, and have reported it as such:

https://github.com/nochowderforyou/clams/issues/13

[dooglus]

Basically we set up a 'public' staking wallet ( controlled by a trusted member ) Everyone who wants to participate sends like 2 Clams to it.

Say 40 people send 2 clams each... that's 80 clams staking.... you must stake for x-amount of time then you can withdraw your 2 clams + 1/40th of the profit. Or roll it over... then start the next enrollment period...

Perhaps we have open enrollment on the last day of the month, then end at the last day of the next month....

What you all think?

I like the idea.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to make it zero-trust. You'll have to trust the person with your coins.

I don't see why you would have to have everyone contribute the same amount. Just keep track of how much each person has in their balance, and split all stakes in proportion to their balance. If you have 2 CLAM and I have 18, I get 90% of all stakes (lotto or otherwise) and you get 10%.

It would be worth limiting withdrawals I guess, because coins stake better when they're old, and servicing withdrawals kills their age.

[dooglus]

I like the idea.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to make it zero-trust. You'll have to trust the person with your coins.

I don't see why you would have to have everyone contribute the same amount. Just keep track of how much each person has in their balance, and split all stakes in proportion to their balance. If you have 2 CLAM and I have 18, I get 90% of all stakes (lotto or otherwise) and you get 10%.

It would be worth limiting withdrawals I guess, because coins stake better when they're old, and servicing withdrawals kills their age.

Really we're just talking about a web wallet I suppose.

Each user could have an option "share stakes" which lets them decide whether they're pooling their stakes or working alone. One consideration here is that I think it is possible to look a short distance into the future and see whether your coin is going to stake soon. I don't fully understand how it works, but I think the staking algorithm depends on a "stake modifier" which changes every 10 or so minutes based on recent block hashes - so we can't look very far ahead since we don't know future block hashes.

We would need to prevent people from checking "share" only when they're not about to "win"...

[phzi]

I think "pooled staking" is a bad idea.  One of the few good things about Proof of Stake is that there are no mining pools representing a massive portion of the network.

[seedtrue]

 

[phzi]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

[istvandv]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!   

[almightyruler]

Much like POW mining pools, I bet there would be some sort of way to do a CLAM POS staking lottery pool....

The trouble with this is that a pool "re"-centralizes what should be a decentralized operation, and it's worse than PoW. If an operator of a PoW pool goes rogue, miners may lose funds, but they stop sending shares; if the op goes rogue in a PoS pool (eg by disabling withdrawals) he retains a tremendous amount of PoS power, in perpetuity.

The other issue with a PoS pool is that you'd have to keep a large amount of your funds with a third party. With a PoW pool you can basically withdraw as fast as you mine.

And finally, if the op was able to modify the code the pool could choose to stake only when it's worth it. With such a large weight (balance) behind it there is a good chance the pool would win the majority of the lotto blocks, therefore, others have no choice but to join the pool, making the pool even stronger and more centralized, compounding the above issues...

tl;dr a rogue PoS pool op can 51% the network or run off with your funds

[Quantum12]

 I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

[ymod123]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!   

is it better to split your coins to many address?

[seedtrue]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!  

is it better to split your coins to many address?

I don't think so. The way I understand it(I could be completely wrong), the bigger the stack of clams, the more often it stakes. In my head I compared it to the real government-run lottery, if I had enough money for 7 tickets, would it be better to play the same numbers each day for a week, or play 7 different combos of numbers on the same day. Statistically, it should be the same right?


edit: I was just now considering the 510 confirm aspect. There has to be some amount where the stack size is "too big" for optimal staking. Even if you get stakes repeatedly for having a large stack, you still have to wait 510 confirms between stakes, so too big could be bad.