[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[seedtrue]

Network weight has been crazy lately huh?

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[dooglus]

Network weight has been crazy lately huh?

Yes. I'm wondering if the guy who dug up DOGE-CLAMs for 4 days solid a while ago recently remembered his wallet, and has stated letting it stake.

The difficulty is around 10 times harder than usual, and has been for 3 days now.

[Thirdspace]

In the last 4 days I've been trying to download the client from Mega,
but somehow even at 1% it's giving me "temporary error" whatever that is...
though it keeps progressing very slowly but always giving me constant errors
do I need to register first to be able to download it smoothly without problem?

[devvienuis]

In the last 4 days I've been trying to download the client from Mega,
but somehow even at 1% it's giving me "temporary error" whatever that is...
though it keeps progressing very slowly but always giving me constant errors
do I need to register first to be able to download it smoothly without problem?

Shouldn't be a problem... Just downloaded fine.

I often see problems like yours on hard drives with file system errors... Start an elevated cmd.exe command prompt, type:
chkdsk c: /f /v /x /r

Restart your computer and wait 2 to 5 hours... Good luck!


PS: @clam: THANK you for the GUI import function. Testing next XD

twitter.com/devnullius

[MoneroMooo]

Most of the time the difficulty is at its minimum, meaning that every 1 CLAM-day output has a 1-in-a-million chance of staking each second.

Currently the difficulty is 20 times higher than the minimum, meaning that each output is 20 times less likely to stake in any given time period.

What's the minimum difficulty that you're mentioning?
In other words, the network difficulty is currently around 213000. How many times the minimum difficulty is that ?
The client tells me I can expect a stake in 3 days, but it's not clear how that interacts with the randomness.

Thanks

[seedtrue]

Most of the time the difficulty is at its minimum, meaning that every 1 CLAM-day output has a 1-in-a-million chance of staking each second.

Currently the difficulty is 20 times higher than the minimum, meaning that each output is 20 times less likely to stake in any given time period.

What's the minimum difficulty that you're mentioning?
In other words, the network difficulty is currently around 213000. How many times the minimum difficulty is that ?
The client tells me I can expect a stake in 3 days, but it's not clear how that interacts with the randomness.

Thanks

9-10k weight was common for a long time. It is starting to look like those days are long gone

[xlcus]

I imported my DOGE wallet and there is no CLAMs.

You need have DOGE when clam was launced.

[paulc010]

Most of the time the difficulty is at its minimum, meaning that every 1 CLAM-day output has a 1-in-a-million chance of staking each second.

Currently the difficulty is 20 times higher than the minimum, meaning that each output is 20 times less likely to stake in any given time period.

What's the minimum difficulty that you're mentioning?
In other words, the network difficulty is currently around 213000. How many times the minimum difficulty is that ?
The client tells me I can expect a stake in 3 days, but it's not clear how that interacts with the randomness.

Thanks

The network weight isn't the difficulty though. If you go into the client Debug console and type "getstakinginfo" that will tell you what the current difficulty is. The network weight is the sum of the weights of all the coins available to stake. Current difficulty is 0.00284345 (which is used just as in traditional POW mining). IIRC minimum difficulty is 0.0001.

[Wexlike]

Is this correct, that this coin is POS only ? No way to mine it ?

[paulc010]

Is this correct, that this coin is POS only ? No way to mine it ?

There's a pool that pays out in CLAMs, although those are bought with 75% of the mining proceeds. The other 25% is used as the CLAM Shell - To add buy support below market value.

[dooglus]

What's the minimum difficulty that you're mentioning?

When very little weight is staking, the difficulty decreases, to make it easier for people to stake.

The lowest it goes is 1/4096 = 0.00024414

Currently it's around:

0.00224045
0.00240555
0.00264976
0.00261897
0.00279432
0.00314596

(those were the difficulties after 6 recent blocks).

That's about 10 times higher than the minimum of 1/4096.

In other words, the network difficulty is currently around 213000. How many times the minimum difficulty is that ?

Where do you see that number?

I see a number around 0.002:

$ clamd getdifficulty
{
    "proof-of-work" : 0.00024876,
    "proof-of-stake" : 0.00275561,
    "search-interval" : 1
}

The client tells me I can expect a stake in 3 days, but it's not clear how that interacts with the randomness.

The client has been quite inaccurate about expected staking times. I'm not sure whether it is better now or not.

The way the randomness works is that each second, each of your coin outputs gets hashed with the current time (in seconds). If that hash is lower than the current target per CLAM-day (which is a function of the current difficulty) multiplied by the weight of the output (which is its value times its age) then it gets to stake.

In effect you are entering a lottery every second, with a tiny chance of winning each time. As you keep failing to win, your output gets older, which gives it more weight, and so a better chance of winning. But at the same time everyone else is doing the same, and the faster they stake, the higher the difficulty increases, making the lottery harder to win.

Edit: about half an hour after posting this, the difficulty fell dramatically. Now it's relatively easy to stake again:

$ clamd getdifficulty
{
    "proof-of-work" : 0.00024876,
    "proof-of-stake" : 0.00054170,
    "search-interval" : 1
}

[MoneroMooo]

Ah, it seems I was confusing difficulty and network weight. I get 0.002 like numbers from getstakinginfo too, and I was giving the network weight as what I thought was a synonym for difficulty.

And it seems the random factor is rather large - my 4.6 block made two 0.1 stakes on two consecutive days, but is now staying silent. I guess it'll even out over a long period of time.

This makes me even more curious about how this works, though. How is the difficulty connected to network weight ? Is the weight "approximated" backward from stake times like the network hash rate is in PoW coins ? This is why I confused difficulty and network weight, since these two (difficulty and (estimated) hash rate are connected with PoW).

So, to understand if I get it now, each second, a coin has a chance to stake equal to 1 in the integer part of ( (2^20) * coin-age-in-days-minus-6-hours * coin-value * difficulty / 0.0001 ), with difficulty being 0.003 at the moment.

Thanks

[luckygenough56]

clams lol proof of pearl lolol

[MoneroMooo]

Also, in order to understand how this works, I added age and weight columns to the coin control window. I find it's useful. If you think it's a good addition, feel free to use this patch.
Also, if I messed up on how these are actually calcualted, feel free to correct me It appears consistent with the total weight displayed in the bottom right corner, at least.



From 76cc57216ac6789972d769185b75e4c4a1de051d Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: moneromooo <moneromooo@nowhere.nowhere.nowhere>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:05:11 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] coincontrol: add age/weight columns

---
 src/qt/coincontroldialog.cpp      | 16 +++++++++++++++-
 src/qt/coincontroldialog.h        |  2 ++
 src/qt/forms/coincontroldialog.ui | 16 ++++++++++++++++
 3 files changed, 33 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/src/qt/coincontroldialog.cpp b/src/qt/coincontroldialog.cpp
index f1008d4..11966a2 100644
--- a/src/qt/coincontroldialog.cpp
+++ b/src/qt/coincontroldialog.cpp
@@ -110,6 +110,8 @@ CoinControlDialog::CoinControlDialog(QWidget *parent) :
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_ADDRESS, 290);
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_DATE, 110);
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_CONFIRMATIONS, 100);
+    ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_AGE, 60);
+    ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_WEIGHT, 60);
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnWidth(COLUMN_PRIORITY, 100);
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnHidden(COLUMN_TXHASH, true);         // store transacton hash in this column, but dont show it
     ui->treeWidget->setColumnHidden(COLUMN_VOUT_INDEX, true);     // store vout index in this column, but dont show it
@@ -622,6 +624,7 @@ void CoinControlDialog::updateView()
         double dPrioritySum = 0;
         int nChildren = 0;
         int nInputSum = 0;
+        int dWeight = 0;
         BOOST_FOREACH(const COutput& out, coins.second)
         {
             int nInputSize = 148; // 180 if uncompressed public key
@@ -683,7 +686,17 @@ void CoinControlDialog::updateView()
 
             // confirmations
             itemOutput->setText(COLUMN_CONFIRMATIONS, strPad(QString::number(out.nDepth), 8, " "));
-            
+
+            // age
+            float age = (GetTime() - out.tx->GetTxTime()) / (float)(1440 * nTargetStakeSpacing);
+            itemOutput->setText(COLUMN_AGE, strPad(QString::number(age, 'g', 3), 8, " "));
+
+            // weight
+            int weight = floorf((GetTime() - out.tx->GetTxTime() - nStakeMinAge) * out.tx->vout[out.i].nValue / BitcoinUnits::factor(BitcoinUnits::BTC) / (float)(1440 * nTargetStakeSpacing));
+            if (weight < 0) weight = 0;
+            itemOutput->setText(COLUMN_WEIGHT, strPad(QString::number(weight), 5, " "));
+            dWeight += weight;
+
             // priority
             double dPriority = ((double)out.tx->vout[out.i].nValue  / (nInputSize + 78)) * (out.nDepth+1); // 78 = 2 * 34 + 10
             itemOutput->setText(COLUMN_PRIORITY, CoinControlDialog::getPriorityLabel(dPriority));
@@ -721,6 +734,7 @@ void CoinControlDialog::updateView()
             itemWalletAddress->setText(COLUMN_AMOUNT_INT64, strPad(QString::number(nSum), 15, " "));
             itemWalletAddress->setText(COLUMN_PRIORITY, CoinControlDialog::getPriorityLabel(dPrioritySum));
             itemWalletAddress->setText(COLUMN_PRIORITY_INT64, strPad(QString::number((int64_t)dPrioritySum), 20, " "));
+            itemWalletAddress->setText(COLUMN_WEIGHT, strPad(QString::number((int64_t)dWeight), 5, " "));
         }
     }
    
diff --git a/src/qt/coincontroldialog.h b/src/qt/coincontroldialog.h
index 5d0a90b..2f803d5 100644
--- a/src/qt/coincontroldialog.h
+++ b/src/qt/coincontroldialog.h
@@ -57,6 +57,8 @@ private:
         COLUMN_ADDRESS,
         COLUMN_DATE,
         COLUMN_CONFIRMATIONS,
+        COLUMN_AGE,
+        COLUMN_WEIGHT,
         COLUMN_PRIORITY,
         COLUMN_TXHASH,
         COLUMN_VOUT_INDEX,
diff --git a/src/qt/forms/coincontroldialog.ui b/src/qt/forms/coincontroldialog.ui
index 1364269..f002872 100644
--- a/src/qt/forms/coincontroldialog.ui
+++ b/src/qt/forms/coincontroldialog.ui
@@ -494,6 +494,22 @@
      </column>
      <column>
       <property name="text">
+       <string>Age</string>
+      </property>
+      <property name="toolTip">
+       <string>Age in days</string>
+      </property>
+     </column>
+     <column>
+      <property name="text">
+       <string>Weight</string>
+      </property>
+      <property name="toolTip">
+       <string>Weight</string>
+      </property>
+     </column>
+     <column>
+      <property name="text">
        <string>Priority</string>
       </property>
      </column>
--
1.9.3

[dooglus]

Ah, it seems I was confusing difficulty and network weight. I get 0.002 like numbers from getstakinginfo too, and I was giving the network weight as what I thought was a synonym for difficulty.

And it seems the random factor is rather large - my 4.6 block made two 0.1 stakes on two consecutive days, but is now staying silent. I guess it'll even out over a long period of time.

Take a look at http://khashier.com:2750/address/xC6ktEBwaTk8G27wCWwQjGmDuK14SZPvJa for example.

The 4.6 staked to 4.7 and then to 4.8, taking about 3 days between those two events. Then 3 days later it split into two 2.45's, and each of those has been staking since, about once every 3 days between the two of them. Replace the address with your address and you'll see the data for your output - but about once per 3 days seems to be how it goes, roughly.

Network weight is indeed approximated based on recent staking rate, like PoW hashrate. There's no other way to know how many coins are currently staking. It could be that lots of coins are trying to stake but being incredibly unlucky, or the converse.

The difficulty is adjusted to try to make it so that one block is staked per minute - that's all. And the network weight is approximated based on how fast blocks actually staked based on the difficulty as it stood for each recent block.

So, to understand if I get it now, each second, a coin has a chance to stake equal to 1 in the integer part of ( (2^20) * coin-age-in-days-minus-6-hours * coin-value * difficulty / 0.0001 ), with difficulty being 0.003 at the moment.

I'm not sure of the details. But isn't it 4 hours not 6?

unsigned int nStakeMinAge = 4 * 60 * 60; // 4 hours

I have an output here that just staked. It was worth 2.55 CLAM and is 8.96 days old. That's a weight of 22 CLAMdays.

The first 8 digits of the hash were 00000c76, and they had to be less than 00002092. That's a 1-in-515107 chance (0x100000000 / 0x00002092), and so on average that output would take 515k seconds to stake. That's 5.96 days.

Does that help you check your math?

[MoneroMooo]

Yes, you're right it's 4 hours, sorry.

And I think it answers my questions, thanks a lot.

Your example falls within less than an order of magnitude with what I get, which is easily accounted by variations of difficulty, which seems to flail around a fair bit, at least in the last day or so.

Thanks!

[dy2k]

Is this normal?
https://i.imgur.com/EEVGN33.png

[garthkiser]

Is this normal?

Appears normal to me. Specifically, what were you concerned about? I see the three outputs at the top of the list, but I don't see a problem.

[dy2k]

No stake in 10 days

[dooglus]

No stake in 10 days

Every outputs gets a very small chance of staking every second.

There's no guarantee that any particular output will ever stake, and sometimes it can take much longer (or much shorter) than expected.

Here are my oldest outputs - one has gone 19 days without staking:



Edit: here's the history of the oldest output's staking. It started as a 4.7 deposit, staked 4 times (in red) before splitting into a 2.63 (orange) and a 2.6300x (purple). The orange fork is still staking regularly, but the purple fork got stuck 19 days ago and has had no luck since:



Edit2: one other thing that you may not realised:

Your outputs only get their one-chance-per-second of staking while you are actively staking. You can't shut down the client overnight then run it in the morning to see if you would have won overnight. All those chances you would have had overnight are missed chances if the client wasn't running overnight. So if you're only running your client part of the time, that could explain your higher-than average staking delays.

Edit3: I just saw a 5.05 CLAM output that was 10 days old stake on the blockchain. At that weight (50 CLAMdays) and the current difficulty, it had a 1-in-303531 chance of staking each second. 303531 seconds is about 3.5 days, and so your outputs with similar value and age should each stake within 3 or 4 days if you're averagely lucky.