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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 917993 times)
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phzi
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July 14, 2014, 12:26:21 AM
 #501

So.Sending of multiples of .73 to myself of the 7.3 Clams I have will Stake 10x more often? Seems easier than what I realize maybe.
Not quite.  The more CLAMs at an output, the more often it can stake.  But, the reward for staking is the same irrelevant of how many CLAMs are in the staked output.
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July 14, 2014, 12:27:03 AM
 #502

So.Sending of multiples of .73 to myself of the 7.3 Clams I have will Stake 10x more often? Seems easier than what I realize maybe.

No, each one will be 10 times less likely to stake, but there will be 10 times as many of them.

The only difference is that the 510 waiting period is no longer significant compared to the expected time between stakings, so you won't be waiting for the 510 blocks to expire - you'll be waiting for your tiny outputs to stake because they're tiny.

I think the net effect will be slightly (nowhere near 10x) faster staking.

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July 14, 2014, 12:29:31 AM
 #503

Not quite.  The more CLAMs at an output, the more often it can stake.  But, the reward for staking is the same irrelevant of how many CLAMs are in the staked output.

That's right. So breaking your outputs up doesn't increase your expected return, *except* if your output is big enough that it would normally be staking before the 510 block maturation period had expired.

The only real change caused by having the block reward not be proportional to the days destroyed is that you can't stop staking for a month then come back and collect a month's worth of staking all at once. It's a stake-it-or-lose-it model now, which is better.

And the lottery is so hard to win that it's not worth gaming.

All in all I think it's a good change.

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July 14, 2014, 01:32:23 AM
 #504

Maybe you do, but "lucky" blocks will almost always have "messy" rewards, going to 7 or 8 decimal places.
I just plotted a chart showing how likely various rewards are:

What it's saying is that:
98.4682% of the time, your reward is exactly 0.1
99.5% of the time, your reward is very close to 0.1 (0.1003 or less),
99.6% of the time, your reward is 0.106 or less,
99.7% of the time, your reward is 0.2256 or less,
99.7659% of the time your reward will be less than 1,
99.8% of the time, your reward is 2.4948 or less,
99.8475% of the time, it's less than 10,
99.9% of the time, it's less than 47.702,
99.9239% of the time, it's less than 100,
etc.
...

That curve looks just about perfect Grin

Dooglus, You've went above and beyond!
We love it so much we went ahead and added it to the OP Post.
Did some fiddling in an attempt to render up a similar curve last night - amounting to much gnashing of teeth and little progress.
Much appreciated.

"The Brains" made essentially the same argument to me last night that you have just made in the thread here.
Hopefully the both of you are correct; and the lottery system is protected by the rarity, incentives, and structure of the reward.
If we find that isn't the case, nothing prevents us from reviewing the situation and improving the code base of coarse.



et. al.

Even with conventional proof-of-stake, there is a certain output (coin pile) size that is most "efficient".  In conventional proof-of-stake, this efficiency comes from the additional coins earned through compound interest, with the sweet spot being the point at which you stake an output immediately once it is mature, without having enough weight to stake prior.

In CLAMS, this should be quite similar, except of coarse that the efficiency and reward comes from staking additional lottery blocks as opposed to maximizing compound interest.

I think Dooglus' explanation of how this would function in terms of splitting up outputs was quite accurate with my understanding, and so I will re-post it here:

Each time you use a transaction output to create a block, it takes 510 blocks before the resulting (slightly bigger) output is "mature". While you're waiting for the 510 blocks you can't spend or mine with that output.

You can split your output into 2 smaller outputs (by sending half of its value to yourself). Each smaller output will on average take twice as long to mine a block and so won't make a net difference to your "income", except if the 510 block waiting period is significant. That is, if your large coin is big enough that you would normally expect it to mine a block within 510 blocks, it's worth splitting it up until the parts are small enough that they each take an average of more than 510 blocks each to mine.

There may be some additional efficiency gained in CLAMS that is similar to the "compound interest" argument.
Successfully staking more often will not earn you additional compound interest (as the reward is not based on the size or age of your output (coin pile)).  However, if your pile is inefficient and not staking shortly after reaching maturity - the additional coins from previous staking would increase weight and make the next staking somewhat easier.  Does that make any sense?



I want to thank Dooglus and Phzi for answering questions here in the post while I was away.

I know I speak for the entire team when I say, "Thank you" for your involvement.



Now!

We have a wide and reasonably fair distribution, though work needs to be done to "shout it to the rooftops".
We have a Proof-Of-Pearl/Lottery system, that has stake incentives that are fair, even, and align with the interests and security of the network.

The next target is ease-of-use, utility, and liquidity.
Also, I have made a pledge to myself to be much more pro-active and communicate better, concerning information and transparency with any future updates!



We have some projects that we are currently working on, that we aren't quite ready to let out of the bag just yet, but nothing is set in stone and additional ideas are what it is all about.

So!
Ideas anyone?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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July 14, 2014, 01:36:39 AM
 #505

So!
Ideas anyone?
More algos coming to the multi-pool anytime soon?
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July 14, 2014, 01:38:57 AM
 #506

So!
Ideas anyone?
More algos coming to the multi-pool anytime soon?
FAUCET!!
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July 14, 2014, 01:42:40 AM
 #507

So!
Ideas anyone?
More algos coming to the multi-pool anytime soon?
Viking coin has 5 Mill.coins only ,but almost dead though. May be interesting to pick up. Dunno.
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July 14, 2014, 02:27:09 AM
 #508

So!
Ideas anyone?
More algos coming to the multi-pool anytime soon?

Hmmmmm.... We were just reviewing 'coins' to add last night, to keep profitability up.

We do have plans to add additional algorithms on the Multi-Pool....

If we had reason to believe that a new algorithm would increase the hash on the pool, as opposed to diluting it - we are not against that at all!



FAUCET!!

Easy enough to put together -> but we have no ready-made pre-mine to pump into it; it would need to be a community affair.



Just want to re-iterate something we have said recently, via Twitter.
I will simply copy the relevant 'tweet's:

"A promise to all CLAMS users: the block chain has no moral opinion. We will never fork to seize coins."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488504931758776321

"A bookkeeper who "fudges" the books, has no place being trusted to keep the public ledger. Pressure is moot."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488506196886708224

"VeriCoin, Do this fork, and you have successfully 51% double spent your own network."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488508451161534464

If you agree, let those who hear your voice know that CLAMS believes in only the block chain as the arbiter of the public ledger...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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July 14, 2014, 02:30:15 AM
 #509

I find all this staking talk very confusing as I am relatively new to crypto. Right now I have around 5 clams staking have gotten 1 stake for .11. 510 confirms later balance went back to spendable to start staking again. From what I have read so far( Huh) I should send .5 to myself 10 times to make it stake a bit faster?

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July 14, 2014, 02:33:28 AM
 #510

So!
Ideas anyone?
More algos coming to the multi-pool anytime soon?

Hmmmmm.... We were just reviewing 'coins' to add last night, to keep profitability up.

We do have plans to add additional algorithms on the Multi-Pool....

If we had reason to believe that a new algorithm would increase the hash on the pool, as opposed to diluting it - we are not against that at all!
X11 is consistently more profitable then nscrypt lately, specifically with ATI cards and 14.6 drivers.  I'd probably throw some hash back on the khashier if you supported X11.

Just want to re-iterate something we have said recently, via Twitter.
I will simply copy the relevant 'tweet's:

"A promise to all CLAMS users: the block chain has no moral opinion. We will never fork to seize coins."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488504931758776321

"A bookkeeper who "fudges" the books, has no place being trusted to keep the public ledger. Pressure is moot."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488506196886708224

"VeriCoin, Do this fork, and you have successfully 51% double spent your own network."
https://twitter.com/ClamClient/status/488508451161534464

If you agree, let those who hear your voice know that CLAMS believes in only the block chain as the arbiter of the public ledger...
You rock.  IMO, the VRC move is unbelievable - rolling back a blockchain for external non-technical reasons is disturbing at best, disrespects the entire idea of a decentralized ledger, and I would go as far as to say represents an entirely dishonest act.

I find all this staking talk very confusing as I am relatively new to crypto. Right now I have around 5 clams staking have gotten 1 stake for .11. 510 confirms later balance went back to spendable to start staking again. From what I have read so far( Huh) I should send .5 to myself 10 times to make it stake a bit faster?
With that many clams, you're probably fine leaving them as one output.  It's when you have lots of clams that it starts making sense to split them up.
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July 14, 2014, 02:42:40 AM
 #511

Ah ok I see clam rich  peps should split them up. For us clam poor peps the potential gain is to small to make a difference 

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July 14, 2014, 05:15:18 AM
 #512

Ah ok I see clam rich  peps should split them up. For us clam poor peps the potential gain is to small to make a difference 

Actually it seems that if they need splitting up, they will be split up automatically for you eventually. Then possibly recombined, re-split, etc. The client seems a little confused. Smiley

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July 14, 2014, 06:01:07 AM
 #513

When CLAMS inevitably takes off for the moon Cool then my unofficial clamclient.com website will surely get alot of traffic if it's still the only website. With that in mind I'm hoping the community will point out any information that isn't right or could be worded more clearly, etc. I just made some more small design changes and edits, and added a "proof-of-pearl" page.
http://clamclient.com

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE in early 2014 has CLAMS.
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July 14, 2014, 06:05:54 AM
 #514

I never really read the OP before.

Here are some comments:


There's a spare ] in the URL which is probably a mistake.

Minimum Stake Age: 8 Hours

The code (src/main.cpp) says:

Code:
unsigned int nStakeMinAge = 4 * 60 * 60; // 8 hours

Note the comment says 8 hours, but the code itself says 4 hours.

How Your Protected.

"You're".

As more people with the skills required *to?* build and sign the binary do so, the trust of the CLAM client will grow.

The "to" is missing.

How do I get my CLAMS?

We've done our best to make seeing your CLAMS in your wallet as easy as possible.  
The CLAMS are already associated and controlled by your Private Key on the block chain.

This section says nothing about how to get your clams.

The Three-Step Claim Your CLAMS Guide (The Quick Guide)

This section does - so we don't need the previous one?

1. Run clam-qt.exe once to auto-magically create the AppData/Clam folder.
2. Copy the BTC, LTC or DOGE wallet.dat file into the AppData/Clam folder.
3. Run clam-qt.exe with the --salvage wallet argument.

You're assuming people are using Windows. The argument is "-salvagewallet" (all one word, 2nd dash optional).

1. Download the CLAM Client, below.
1. Download the CLAM Client, or compile from git below.
1. Download the CLAM Client, below.

It's above, not below isn't it?

Dooglus, a very helpful member of the community

I prefer lowercase.

I got bored at that point and stopped reading. I don't mine, so the stuff about khashier isn't of interest to me.

Hope that's helpful.

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July 14, 2014, 06:21:49 AM
 #515

I have my old doge wallet backup but there's no doge left in them. Do I still get clams?

No.  Obviously the wallet.dat has to contain private keys that hold funds.  DUH!!! OTHERWISE HOW WILL THEY STEAL YOUR MONEY.

I've imported large Bitcoin and Dogecoin wallets without any problems. The Bitcoin wallet had several hundred BTC in it, and the Dogecoin wallet had over 100 million DOGE. The wallets weren't encrypted. Nothing was stolen.

That's pretty conclusive proof to me that the client is legit.

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July 14, 2014, 06:36:56 AM
 #516

anyone can ask me why i cant download the windows wallet?
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July 14, 2014, 07:00:20 AM
 #517

anyone can ask me why i cant download the windows wallet?
Do you have a Internet Connection? 56k works the best!
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July 14, 2014, 07:12:30 AM
 #518

anyone can ask me why i cant download the windows wallet?
Do you have a Internet Connection? 56k works the best!

yes i have

but i cant open mega.co.nz
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July 14, 2014, 09:24:45 AM
 #519

Any nodes?? My wallet is sync but last block was generated 12 hours ago and doesn't want go next D:


 
 
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SuperClam
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July 14, 2014, 09:32:40 AM
 #520

anyone can ask me why i cant download the windows wallet?
Do you have a Internet Connection? 56k works the best!
yes i have
but i cant open mega.co.nz

Might be a Great Firewall issue maybe?  Are you located in China by chance?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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