[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[Trent Russell]

I have my old doge wallet backup but there's no doge left in them. Do I still get clams?

You don't sorry bro.

There is not enough information to support this conclusion. It depends on whether the old doge wallet had doge last May.

[qiwoman2]

Clams is a great coin and has seen good value. BTW Would you like us to start Chinese translation of website any time soon? Also blog post coming tomorrow.. 

[garthkiser]

Clams is a great coin and has seen good value. BTW Would you like us to start Chinese translation of website any time soon? Also blog post coming tomorrow.. 

Once we have the new website up then you can still have the job. I'll PM you when it's 100% ready for translation. Designing the new site is a much bigger job than the old one, so it will likely be springtime before it's ready. We won't forget your offer

[qiwoman2]

Clams is a great coin and has seen good value. BTW Would you like us to start Chinese translation of website any time soon? Also blog post coming tomorrow.. 

Once we have the new website up then you can still have the job. I'll PM you when it's 100% ready for translation. Designing the new site is a much bigger job than the old one, so it will likely be springtime before it's ready. We won't forget your offer

Awesome you rick my Bro.. I love CLAMS.. 

[chriswen]

One thing about using the client is that you can stake your blocks right after.  I think it should stake easily because its been a long time.  While I did use the client I made the mistake of sending straight to JD.  quite unfortunate. 

I think you've got it backwards.

You seem to be saying that the coins you dig up will stake quickly because they're old, but age isn't a factor in staking, only size.

When you invest in JD you immediately start receiving a share of the staking rewards, whereas coins arriving in your own wallet won't start staking for 4 hours (if they were sent to you) or for 510 blocks (if they are immature after staking).

(The coins you send to JD also won't start staking for 4 hours, but that cost is shared between all the investors).

okay I'm skimming through the forum right now.  But i thought how fast you stake was based off of age and size.  Or maybe that's been changed now.  I know its still a flat 1 clam reward but I thought the only incentive was that that by continuously staking you get more compound interest.

And yes I agree moving to JD is a good thing.  As a smaller holder I get less variance and more compounding and also the dice site.  Also a bit more mobility.  I just thought that it was easy to get the first stake but I seems like there was a change.  I'll keep catching up on this thread!

[dooglus]

okay I'm skimming through the forum right now.  But i thought how fast you stake was based off of age and size.  Or maybe that's been changed now.

It has changed a few times. For a while old outputs staked easier than new ones, but not any more.

I know its still a flat 1 clam reward but I thought the only incentive was that that by continuously staking you get more compound interest.

Each CLAM has a certain chance of staking each 16 seconds. If you only try to stake half the time, you will stake about half as often. In that sense it's like proof-of-work. If age mattered then you could shut down your wallet most of the time, let the age build up, then once a week run it and let all your outputs stake, collecting the potential built up during the downtime. That's no longer how it works.

And yes I agree moving to JD is a good thing.  As a smaller holder I get less variance and more compounding and also the dice site.  Also a bit more mobility.  I just thought that it was easy to get the first stake but I seems like there was a change.  I'll keep catching up on this thread!

[Trent Russell]

I'm concerned that clam is in danger of a blockchain fork. I'm hesitant to bring it up, but if I'm right, then something can and should be done to prevent it.

I mentioned above that I got "stuck" on a block from Jan 18 and fixed it by basically starting over. I was using clam-1.4.4 on Ubuntu. Still using 1.4.4 yesterday I got stuck again, this time at block 309743. From debug.log :

ERROR: ProcessBlock() : duplicate proof-of-stake (COutPoint(d8b3271d13, 1), 1422097824) for block 9aa9cd7b8405220459c0f59fb49c8e0c6f70a4ad13269f8186d544e5931d38cd

This time I downgraded to clam-1.4.3.1 from Dec 2014 and this got me unstuck.

I'm concerned that there's some bug in 1.4.4 that makes it incompatible with the previous versions. That could appear at the moment as "getting stuck", when in reality all the 1.4.4 could be "stuck" while trying to stake the next block.

If the vast majority of stakeholders are not running 1.4.4, then it's possible they simply do not yet have the staking power to cause a fork. As stakeholders start to upgrade, a fork would happen.

I'm not a dev or an expert, and if I'm wrong someone will clear this up. I don't mean to FUD things up.

[picolo]

One thing about using the client is that you can stake your blocks right after.  I think it should stake easily because its been a long time.  While I did use the client I made the mistake of sending straight to JD.  quite unfortunate. 

I think you've got it backwards.

You seem to be saying that the coins you dig up will stake quickly because they're old, but age isn't a factor in staking, only size.

When you invest in JD you immediately start receiving a share of the staking rewards, whereas coins arriving in your own wallet won't start staking for 4 hours (if they were sent to you) or for 510 blocks (if they are immature after staking).

(The coins you send to JD also won't start staking for 4 hours, but that cost is shared between all the investors).

I like just-dice and the way it is but the system you are talking about is a (small) loss for people invested who don't withdraw their CLAM.

[chriswen]

One thing about using the client is that you can stake your blocks right after.  I think it should stake easily because its been a long time.  While I did use the client I made the mistake of sending straight to JD.  quite unfortunate. 

I think you've got it backwards.

You seem to be saying that the coins you dig up will stake quickly because they're old, but age isn't a factor in staking, only size.

When you invest in JD you immediately start receiving a share of the staking rewards, whereas coins arriving in your own wallet won't start staking for 4 hours (if they were sent to you) or for 510 blocks (if they are immature after staking).

(The coins you send to JD also won't start staking for 4 hours, but that cost is shared between all the investors).

I like just-dice and the way it is but the system you are talking about is a (small) loss for people invested who don't withdraw their CLAM.

First of all there is the 10% lost.  Actually its not exactly 10% lost.  If the site is unprofitable you won't need to pay staking fees.

The other loss is that your clams might not always be staking because money is constantly being invested and withdrawn.  But you do get the benefit of getting staking rewards of people who do not invest.  And you also get the bonus of liquidity.  While there is a small loss because people are always moving coins around you have the ability to move it at any time and get stake rewards right up till withdrawal.

[picolo]

One thing about using the client is that you can stake your blocks right after.  I think it should stake easily because its been a long time.  While I did use the client I made the mistake of sending straight to JD.  quite unfortunate. 

I think you've got it backwards.

You seem to be saying that the coins you dig up will stake quickly because they're old, but age isn't a factor in staking, only size.

When you invest in JD you immediately start receiving a share of the staking rewards, whereas coins arriving in your own wallet won't start staking for 4 hours (if they were sent to you) or for 510 blocks (if they are immature after staking).

(The coins you send to JD also won't start staking for 4 hours, but that cost is shared between all the investors).

I like just-dice and the way it is but the system you are talking about is a (small) loss for people invested who don't withdraw their CLAM.

First of all there is the 10% lost.  Actually its not exactly 10% lost.  If the site is unprofitable you won't need to pay staking fees.

The other loss is that your clams might not always be staking because money is constantly being invested and withdrawn.  But you do get the benefit of getting staking rewards of people who do not invest.  And you also get the bonus of liquidity.  While there is a small loss because people are always moving coins around you have the ability to move it at any time and get stake rewards right up till withdrawal.

I would be in favor of not giving stacking rewards for CLAM that cannot stack but I don't feel strongly about it.
What about allowing investors not to invest for bets of more than a certain number of CLAM : you could invest only for bets of less than 1 CLAM or less than 10 CLAM, if someone bets more you don't win or lose.

[dooglus]

First of all there is the 10% lost.  Actually its not exactly 10% lost.  If the site is unprofitable you won't need to pay staking fees.

That used to be true, but isn't any longer.

The 10% fee is taken off before the staking reward is allocated to investors now, not at the end of the month. The rewards are then not subject to further commission charges (your 'base' figure increases as each reward is added, resulting in a zero gain in commission-able profit). It changed when I added the /offsite functionality. I had to rework how rewards are allocated. They used to be just added to the bankroll like any other site gain, but that doesn't work when I want to only share it between the onsite investments.

[dooglus]

I'm concerned that clam is in danger of a blockchain fork. I'm hesitant to bring it up, but if I'm right, then something can and should be done to prevent it.

I mentioned above that I got "stuck" on a block from Jan 18 and fixed it by basically starting over. I was using clam-1.4.4 on Ubuntu. Still using 1.4.4 yesterday I got stuck again, this time at block 309743. From debug.log :

I've seen the client get stuck after a block it mined was orphaned before too, and mentioned it to the developers on the IRC channel. I don't now if it was taken seriously or not. This was before v1.4.4 was released by the way, so I'm not convinced it's a new issue.

For the record, JD is running an older version of clamd and still has over 50% of the staking weight. So if the problem *is* specific to v1.4.4 then it shouldn't be a problem, since over 50% of the network isn't running v1.4.4.

[dooglus]

I would be in favor of not giving stacking rewards for CLAM that cannot stack but I don't feel strongly about it.

I answered this in the JD thread. I don't want to spam up the CLAM thread with Just-Dice stuff.

[Trent Russell]

I'm concerned that clam is in danger of a blockchain fork. I'm hesitant to bring it up, but if I'm right, then something can and should be done to prevent it.

I mentioned above that I got "stuck" on a block from Jan 18 and fixed it by basically starting over. I was using clam-1.4.4 on Ubuntu. Still using 1.4.4 yesterday I got stuck again, this time at block 309743. From debug.log :

I've seen the client get stuck after a block it mined was orphaned before too, and mentioned it to the developers on the IRC channel. I don't now if it was taken seriously or not. This was before v1.4.4 was released by the way, so I'm not convinced it's a new issue.

For the record, JD is running an older version of clamd and still has over 50% of the staking weight. So if the problem *is* specific to v1.4.4 then it shouldn't be a problem, since over 50% of the network isn't running v1.4.4.

Thanks for letting me know. Do you usually announce when JD updates to a new version? It seems like the safest thing for small stakers like me to do is update around the same time as JD. Actually, maybe the version of clam JD is running could be on the JD FAQ.

[dooglus]

Thanks for letting me know. Do you usually announce when JD updates to a new version? It seems like the safest thing for small stakers like me to do is update around the same time as JD. Actually, maybe the version of clam JD is running could be on the JD FAQ.

I made a whole bunch of changes to clamd shortly before launching JD with CLAM. It was missing a lot of the features I needed to do what JD does (manage a shared wallet without disturbing the staking outputs more than necessary, split large deposits into multiple small outputs when staking them, report on the amount earned from staking, track the money supply, etc.) so I added them.

I contributed almost all of my changes back upstream, but apparently not all of them, so at some point I'm going to have to check which of my changes aren't in the latest official release and either merge them in or decide I don't need them. That's a job I've been putting off, but I'll get to it sooner or later.

So currently JD is running something which claims to be "BlackCoin version v1.4.2.1-468-g21ff975-dirty" when I run it with --help. The "BlackCoin" string has presumably been fixed in a recent release. I think what I'm running is based on the last release before ClamSpeech started actually working.

Speaking of which, I don't really understand the concept of ClamSpeech. I don't know if "expression of religious freedom - budhism" is a template which is meant to be replaced by an actual expression of religious freedom, or if that is a self-referential expression of freedom, but I was wondering whether it might be appropriate to use the most recently uttered line from the Just-Dice chat tab in each block that JD stakes. Then the blockchain contains real speech (however dumb), not just canned text, which presumably strengthens the argument that the blockchain is "speech".

[xoxoll]

Hard to stake if block explorer always 7 blocks ahead.

[chriswen]

Speaking of which, I don't really understand the concept of ClamSpeech. I don't know if "expression of religious freedom - budhism" is a template which is meant to be replaced by an actual expression of religious freedom, or if that is a self-referential expression of freedom, but I was wondering whether it might be appropriate to use the most recently uttered line from the Just-Dice chat tab in each block that JD stakes. Then the blockchain contains real speech (however dumb), not just canned text, which presumably strengthens the argument that the blockchain is "speech".

Putting JD chat on the blockchain would be interesting.

[picolo]

Thanks for letting me know. Do you usually announce when JD updates to a new version? It seems like the safest thing for small stakers like me to do is update around the same time as JD. Actually, maybe the version of clam JD is running could be on the JD FAQ.

I made a whole bunch of changes to clamd shortly before launching JD with CLAM. It was missing a lot of the features I needed to do what JD does (manage a shared wallet without disturbing the staking outputs more than necessary, split large deposits into multiple small outputs when staking them, report on the amount earned from staking, track the money supply, etc.) so I added them.

I contributed almost all of my changes back upstream, but apparently not all of them, so at some point I'm going to have to check which of my changes aren't in the latest official release and either merge them in or decide I don't need them. That's a job I've been putting off, but I'll get to it sooner or later.

So currently JD is running something which claims to be "BlackCoin version v1.4.2.1-468-g21ff975-dirty" when I run it with --help. The "BlackCoin" string has presumably been fixed in a recent release. I think what I'm running is based on the last release before ClamSpeech started actually working.

Speaking of which, I don't really understand the concept of ClamSpeech. I don't know if "expression of religious freedom - budhism" is a template which is meant to be replaced by an actual expression of religious freedom, or if that is a self-referential expression of freedom, but I was wondering whether it might be appropriate to use the most recently uttered line from the Just-Dice chat tab in each block that JD stakes. Then the blockchain contains real speech (however dumb), not just canned text, which presumably strengthens the argument that the blockchain is "speech".

CLAM and just-dice in CLAM are still a work in progress but it is functionning well so far so it should grow bigger and better.

[inkha]

You can check the value of your clams and find some other useful links and information on Claams.com

[popolite11]

You can check the value of your clams and find some other useful links and information on Claams.com

That is an good option to check it.