Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"

[bigasic]

It's kind of funny... about 2 weeks ago, I was talking to someone and I said "If Its not a ponzi, then why not get just 30 percent of the depositors and get them to ask for their money back, if he cant do it, then its a ponzi, if he can then it is debatable:"

What happens? He claims to be closing up shop because it caused too many withdrawals.. THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID WOULD HAPPEN! When he claimed that he his "hot wallets" were drained and had to close up was my confirmation that it is a ponzi...

I really do feel bad for Matt, I really hope that I am wrong, but I just cannot see how I am...

So, When are people going to start understanding and realizing? Next year? This is the bitcoin and internet. Its funny, I transferred 5k bitcoins a couple weeks ago and it was in different wallets and it took me 5 minutes and that was 4.5 minutes too long.. He could have paid back at least 1 pass thru or 1 bigger lender by now..

Good grief...

AR

[1714009739]

1714009739

[Micon]

miscreanity, are you paid for constantly trying to educate them? You seem to have endless patience.
See, in the Dark Ages, everything someone did not understand had to be done by the devil, so they had to burn the witch.
Just imagine, Vandroiy or Micon or the like as simple people from the Dark Ages, and suddenly a huge Antonov 225 flies over them. This thing weights more than 500 horses, so would you expect they can believe such a heavy thing can fly without help from the devil?
The same today, a business that is not understood, has to be a ponzi.
Just 2 years ago, everyone would have told you that Bitcoin itself is a scam, while in fact, it was a huge lost opportunity for those that dismissed it. But today everyone is jealous and whines about those early adopters.
The pirate business is the same. In the end, a lot of people will whine about the lost opportunity.
History tends to repeat itself.
Just ignore those losers.

yes, ignore the losers.  When it's a business that is not understood, maybe we should try and understand it before shipping it $5M+ USD

turns out it wasn't just too big for us witch-hunters to understand.

[wachtwoord]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

Every big IPO on the stock market is a scam (why else would the current owners (insiders) sell? And don't say capital because every large business can loan the money quite cheaply). Do you see me posting this on every forum? No, I just don't buy IPOs.

[Kluge]

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.

I'm not sure Goat really think this is over. That's smell something.

Pirate has effectively defaulted. He failed to pay lenders/depositors at the time he said he would, even with full knowledge of the agreement. Goat's announcement is probably called for, for those who don't keep up on all this drama.

With that said, Goat has a lot of financial incentive to buy his bonds on the market at their current price if he's not worried about Pirate, and I know a bunch of lenders have been enjoying Goat's PPT bonds in the panic (at least for now).

[DeathAndTaxes]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

Every big IPO on the stock market is a scam (why else would the current owners (insiders) sell? And don't say capital because every large business can loan the money quite cheaply). Do you see me posting this on every forum? No, I just don't buy IPOs.

Liquidity.  Especially during the growth phase.  Last time I check you can't eat a share certificate.

[wachtwoord]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

Every big IPO on the stock market is a scam (why else would the current owners (insiders) sell? And don't say capital because every large business can loan the money quite cheaply). Do you see me posting this on every forum? No, I just don't buy IPOs.

Liquidity.  Especially during the growth phase.  Last time I check you can't eat a share certificate.

Added some emphasis. IPO-ing for a fair price as an established company is stupid as you can loan cheaply instead of selling equity. IPO-ing when the market highly overvalues the business however is great

[Micon]

prolly the giant pirate wallet:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94675.0

[memvola]

In my humble opinion, you are being dismissive because you're convinced that it would be best if everyone stopped investing in these schemes.

Yes, exactly. Legitimate investments don't involve a complete absence of disclosure of what you're investing in, no way to estimate the actual level of risk, and no way to tell whether claimed losses were actually incurred or whether claimed profits were actually legitimate. No honest person should ask for investments on terms only a fool would accept.

We have actually seen offers that were basically: "Give me some money to invest, if I make money, I'll share it with you. Otherwise, you'll have to take my word that I actually lost your money in some kind of actual investment". That was literally all they were saying. And people were actually taking this offer seriously. That shows that this community is massively disconnected from reality.

If I understand you correctly, this is inaccurate, as some borrowers (we were debating vescudero) say they guarantee deposits. They may or may not be lying, but that still makes your statement invalid. Guaranteed pass-throughs ran by anonymous parties are uniformly paying out of their pockets because of the default, what "reality" makes them obey the contract which somehow excludes a known individual?

My other point is, what is the difference between these business descriptions:

• lending out to other borrowers, investing in short term opportunities and investing in other bitcoin projects
• buying and mining with 10 BFL Single's and preordering 10 more Single SC's

Both have the same potential to be a scam. If you would support a bias towards the second one, the effect would be nothing more than making the scammers pick that method instead.

All I'm saying is, your point is less convincing when presented as clear-cut. Even though the basic reasoning is sound, the dismissive approach will continue to lose effectiveness as exceptions to the "rule" increases.

Although I agree with the sentiment, that approach is hopeless.

I'm not giving up so easily.

Okay, there may be a collective unconscious thing going on, but I'm not so sure. If we are to avoid a centralized authority AND do business with people we can't pose a physical threat to, it seems to me that short of independent audits and a transparent checklist (rather than a rating maybe?) will be totally ineffective.

My opinion may not have merit, but I haven't seen this perspective presented before, so there.

Even after Bernie Madoff, Allen Stanford and now pirateat40 you still write rubbish like this? You are a complete idiot. Just give your bitcoins away now, it will save you some time.

If you think your comment is anything but redundant, you're as delusional as the ponzi investors.

[Micon]

Also at 7pm PST (in about 2 hrs) I'm going to do a DonkDown radio podcast about the Pirate Ponzi

[yjacket]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

Every big IPO on the stock market is a scam (why else would the current owners (insiders) sell? And don't say capital because every large business can loan the money quite cheaply). Do you see me posting this on every forum? No, I just don't buy IPOs.

Liquidity.  Especially during the growth phase.  Last time I check you can't eat a share certificate.

Added some emphasis. IPO-ing for a fair price as an established company is stupid as you can loan cheaply instead of selling equity. IPO-ing when the market highly overvalues the business however is great

OR sometimes the insiders want to reduce risk(to their wealth) and cash in and put some real(not paper) money in the bank. Look at Google- IPO'd for $100, go check what the market thinks it's worth now.

I do like debt(check my responses in D&T's loan thread) as a way to gain capital, but issuing equity(instead of debt) allows a company to weather a down turn much more easily than with large amounts of debt.

I do concede your general premise isn't a bad way to think, but it's certainly not always the case. Remember, diversity(in a portfolio) is the only free lunch.

[JoelKatz]

In general, the two main reasons for a company to issue public stock are:

1) To raise capital without having to put cash flow at risk or at better rates than you could otherwise get with an unsecured loan.

2) To establish a consensus value for your company to allow investors to cash out when that meets their personal financial goals without having to find private buyers, go through due diligence, and so on.

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

we tried to tell you over 50 pages imsaguy - we all tried to explain it in as much detail as we could - u think we all just got lucky on this one?  or did the scam exhibit all the signs the entire time, start to finish, of a classic Ponzi?

Hey troll, it hasn't been a week yet.  You're pulling a George W. and declaring Victory long before its over.

Quite possible that Micon is actually dumber than George W as well, and I don't say that lightly.

[Micon]

Matt Wright was on the show at the beginning -->  we talk Pirate, Ponzi, his giant bet

http://www.donkdown.com/donkdown-radio-bitcoin-magazine-matt-pirateat40-ponzi-poker-is-skill-it-wasnt-just-bad-luck-all-these-years-crazier-mike/

[softwareseller]

Matt Wright was on the show at the beginning -->  we talk Pirate, Ponzi, his giant bet

http://www.donkdown.com/donkdown-radio-bitcoin-magazine-matt-pirateat40-ponzi-poker-is-skill-it-wasnt-just-bad-luck-all-these-years-crazier-mike/

2 hours???

[memvola]

Matt Wright was on the show at the beginning -->  we talk Pirate, Ponzi, his giant bet

http://www.donkdown.com/donkdown-radio-bitcoin-magazine-matt-pirateat40-ponzi-poker-is-skill-it-wasnt-just-bad-luck-all-these-years-crazier-mike/

Wow, I remember when MNW first appeared on the forums but I somehow thought he himself forgot that, lol. A +1 to MNW and recommended hearing.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

QFT. This should be everyone's signature from now on to remind them of the time they lost $50,000USD to Matthew.

[cuz0882]

You should add Clipse to this list. He took the money from bonus pool and invested it with pirate without telling anyone or increasing payouts. At least people who invested with pirate knew the risks and got paid for it. He owes me about 90 btc, which was a good chunk of change when I requested payment. To me, this kind of behavior is far worse then selling pirate bonds.

[Micon]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

QFT. This should be everyone's signature from now on to remind them of the time they lost $50,000USD to Matthew.

Damn I forgot to ask you this Matt - did you think I was one of the guys that "didn't have enough info to convict" because I went the 100% it's a scam line?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Dude there is a big difference between not investing and starting a fucking crusade.

QFT. This should be everyone's signature from now on to remind them of the time they lost $50,000USD to Matthew.

Damn I forgot to ask you this Matt - did you think I was one of the guys that "didn't have enough info to convict" because I went the 100% it's a scam line?

Information can be anything. I am looking for evidence. For example, this dumbfuck "mem" is in his gambling thread right now trying to convince me and the world that he has an article where it is mentioned that I am 17 years old (obviously ridiculous) and yet refuses to provide the evidence. This is no different than saying you "know" it's a ponzi. This intellectually lazy mentality is destroying our community. I am aware it walks like a duck, but I have reason to believe it's a chicken with big floppy feet. 

[elux]

Matt Wright was on the show at the beginning -->  we talk Pirate, Ponzi, his giant bet

http://www.donkdown.com/donkdown-radio-bitcoin-magazine-matt-pirateat40-ponzi-poker-is-skill-it-wasnt-just-bad-luck-all-these-years-crazier-mike/

Surprisingly hilarious. Thoroughly entertaining.

Came to hear what Matthew had to say, stayed for Crazier Mike. (Old man cranky call-in.)  

Whenever you start echoing when you talk to a caller on the phone, ask the caller to mute the podcast or kill their speakers for the duration of the call.