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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 309751 times)
Sam123
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April 10, 2017, 05:17:05 PM
 #1721

Hi,

Are you aware about a project called BOScoin (governance system): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.0
The trust Contracts are securely executable using Web Ontology Language(OWL) and the Timed Automata Language(TAL).

There was a good discussion between Arhur (Tezos) and BOScoin Team: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.msg18529378#msg18529378



ohad (OP)
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April 10, 2017, 05:30:54 PM
 #1722

Hi,

Are you aware about a project called BOScoin (governance system): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.0
The trust Contracts are securely executable using Web Ontology Language(OWL) and the Timed Automata Language(TAL).

There was a good discussion between Arhur (Tezos) and BOScoin Team: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.msg18529378#msg18529378





thanks Smiley no worries Smiley they both make nice progress though. but tau comes to answer much wider needs.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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April 12, 2017, 02:34:05 PM
 #1723

There was a good discussion between Arhur (Tezos) and BOScoin Team: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.msg18529378#msg18529378

Not sure what you consider to be "good" in that conversation. None of Arthur's questions about the protocol's alleged "self-evolving" properties are actually being answered. The first set of answers just harps on how OWL is great and lands itself well to formal verification, and has got a vast library of ontologies. And the second answer abruptly bails out of the conversation using a very lame "apple and oranges" reason.
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April 12, 2017, 02:42:35 PM
 #1724

Still watching closely this thread . Cool

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SupZ
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April 17, 2017, 05:53:01 PM
 #1725

Price rising. No news?
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April 17, 2017, 05:57:02 PM
 #1726

Price rising. No news?
Just a lack of supply imo
people are holding

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April 17, 2017, 10:26:14 PM
Last edit: April 17, 2017, 10:44:36 PM by dmitryshech
 #1727

Inspired by Dana Edwards recent post about how Tau can help in solving biggest world problems

The world's biggest problem is people with ego's...  We created (or developed or sent here by aliens or whatever anyone beliefs ) as creatures with egos, the ego is  gradually increased along the history. Ego helped us to develop a better, convenient and more o less safe world along the way. By competing with each other we created more and more sophisticated systems and social relations until the world became a large village. We almost got to the dead end though - nothing more to conquer, nothing more to take from mother nature without serious consciousnesses to our self, the science and society comes to serious crisis.

Now we have to deal with each other, to connect right. Especially after robots and AI going to change men in most of the fields, what all these people going to do?  That's I think where Tau can help to create a new system of social relations that people can't create simply because as a creatures with egos we can't  even consider something without taking in account self interest,  we just not able to cancel this egoistic calculation and think about the mother nature first or about your neighbor as your self. So, true altruism it's illusion ( i know we like to think about our selfs as altruists, but think deeper... ). The nature around us is altruistic, but we are NOT, far from it... we need somehow to get to "equivalence of forms" with the nature.

I hope Tau, if built right, could help people to solve this biggest world problem,  to get out of this "ego prison", to connect right with each other and live in harmony with nature, otherwise, nothing good is in front of us... How technically? I have no idea, just sharing my thoughts here...

Something has to force us to connect in a right way, so we only could enjoy something if it doesn't comes on the expense of nature or somebody else or ideally: my only source of happiness is my neighbor happiness. We can't eliminate ego, maybe machine (Tau) can help where humanity is helpless, can help take our egos to a right direction (competing in making each other happier). We keep the ego just change the intention from inside to outside.  Maybe the first rules of changing the rules should be somehow around these ideas...  It also could prevent "Tau becoming a Skynet" Wink
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April 18, 2017, 10:36:02 AM
 #1728

Well, dmitryshech, pls tell us how at all we could reason on ethics by setting up the question-answer 'phase space' Wink on mashup of freidism, maltusianism, anti-humanism ...? Shouldn't we be more facts and fact-checking oriented, instead of approaching this big question of Ethics from unsubstantiated narative prejudice(s) angle?
Wrong question = wrong answer or in the case of Tau - no answer at all.
I bet asking Tau the question you asked the way you asked (from these premises) - it will generate infinite regress of definitions requests, endless topic exacting, and the inference I bet aslo will reveal that.: 'ego' is void of a concept, that we do NOT destroy mother-nature, nature is not mother at all etc. etc.
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April 18, 2017, 09:27:33 PM
 #1729

Karov, I didn't ask any questions yet, I am not a tech guy so I have no idea how to ask Tau right (we didn't even see the white paper yet), it's more about discussing the impact that decentralized AI can make in the world.

If you read the article I referred, my question was more from "How can an effective altruist know which problem to commit to or which cause to focus on if they don't have the tools to measure and compare problems" angle.  What is effective altruist and what is altruism in GENERAL?

I don't know how to reason on ethics, it seems like humans failed on that task if you look at where we ended up today. Maybe machines can help us if we ask the right questions. You're right wrong question = wrong answer but what questions are right?

Why there are hungry kids in Africa? Because we don't know they exists or because no one (or the majority) don't dare to ask the right questions?
Why we don't ask the right questions? Maybe because we too concentrated on our self's and simply can't really see how it can harm us (or our kids and family) directly?

Another quote from the article -  "if you use the calculation that all lives are of equal value no matter which country they are born then it would be obvious that this problem if solved has a tremendous impact"
Can Tauchain help? Well, maybe it can show us the whole picture which we can't see from our egoistic box that only able to calculate our own good. It can show us that everything we do impact us directly even if at the moment it doesn't feels like that in our ego sensors and then we gonna ask the right questions.
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April 18, 2017, 09:51:49 PM
 #1730

There was a good discussion between Arhur (Tezos) and BOScoin Team: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1759662.msg18529378#msg18529378

Not sure what you consider to be "good" in that conversation. None of Arthur's questions about the protocol's alleged "self-evolving" properties are actually being answered. The first set of answers just harps on how OWL is great and lands itself well to formal verification, and has got a vast library of ontologies. And the second answer abruptly bails out of the conversation using a very lame "apple and oranges" reason.

BOS was a scam ico token, we are not talking about it. We are talking about what u turned ur life into after stopping to date ur farther. I know u loved him. If u wanna pick up a fight I'm all in. I can make a quick anthology. Protocol u are banging on about was developed by those that work for my company. Nobody of them has even heard of arthur or any of other dubious characters that u seem to be referring to in ur statement.
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April 19, 2017, 10:19:50 AM
 #1731

The period of Agoras ICO is too long. Ohad should set a deadline for his fund-raising and destroy the unsold Agoras.

If you Agoras investors support that, pls urge Ohad to do it.

How many coins are to be sold?

How many coins have been sold?

When will the ICO end...  or is it a case of getting free money forever?   
As i see now developments done here, just a load of fluff.

then i read Ohad you are working on whitepaper, so ZERO developments are ongoing?

And in the 2+ years, what have been achieved?   Seems like very little,
but plenty of people have bought into this "project"

Is there a BITCOIN ADDRESS to show where all the payments went to?
Id really love to see it. But a fat chance of that, it looks like we are all getting played for suckers.

Also ICO COuntdown, i had trust in your reviews, your undying support for this coin is seriously going to REK
your reputation after your undying support for this project. 

only our undying effort can change our endeavors into undying support.
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April 19, 2017, 08:29:51 PM
 #1732

thats not a crypto community here, its a brain amputation station here. its not about technology, its about a myth and kind of spiritual believing in Ohad.

turing completness is having its problems, but its the only way. everyone with a brain understands that.
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April 20, 2017, 06:21:37 PM
 #1733


great idea! but can come in addition, not instead, because some people want to move between their own wallets from time to time.
we can set that when the final coins will be ready, addresses that hold the tokens, will get more coins, according to the so-called "coin days".
the numbers are obvious: we'll do it relatively to the 15% discount.
so, another way to get the 15% discount, is simply not to move your tokens from the 1st of march which is about two weeks from now (this doesn't hold for tokens held on bittrex). i'll write it publicly somewhere.
I just read this now. I have my tokens on bittrex. Is this still recent? Can I still opt-in for the 15%? How to get my coins in a cold-storage? Thanks. Anyone.
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April 20, 2017, 06:22:38 PM
 #1734


great idea! but can come in addition, not instead, because some people want to move between their own wallets from time to time.
we can set that when the final coins will be ready, addresses that hold the tokens, will get more coins, according to the so-called "coin days".
the numbers are obvious: we'll do it relatively to the 15% discount.
so, another way to get the 15% discount, is simply not to move your tokens from the 1st of march which is about two weeks from now (this doesn't hold for tokens held on bittrex). i'll write it publicly somewhere.
I just read this now. I have my tokens on bittrex. Is this still recent? Can I still opt-in for the 15%? How to get my coins in a cold-storage? Thanks. Anyone.

yes, it's never late. the 15% will be relatively to the days kept since march 1. just put them on any address outside the exchange, and don't move them

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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April 21, 2017, 12:21:48 PM
 #1735

Hi Ohad,

I read your roadmap for Tau, and am glad that you are repositionning your strategy toward a more inclusive bottom-up approach, and prioritizing the creation of collaborative tools for the community to start familiarizing itself with the specific programming paradigm used by Tau, as well as starting building models and applications. As discussed earlier, I think that we shouldn't be looking to create a collaborative environment only around Tau, but instead create an open platform in collaboration with other RDF-based self-amending crypto ledger such as Autonomic and even possibly Tezos if they get around to supporting RDF and OWL. There are several reasons to that. Let me re-iterate on that.

First, as the very slow progress of Tau has shown, this is a significant undertaking. Much more significant than you cared to admit initially. And it's paramount to use the little resources we have as a community intelligently by staying focused on building our common vision together rather than wasting time and resources building separate competing ecosystems.

From an economic and game theory perspective, it also doesn't make any sense to compete at infrastructure level since none of the economic incentives are connected to the underlying infrastructure, be it Tau or Autonomic. Should Autonomic make it first to market by a large margin, regardless of its relative qualities and shortcomings as per your and HMC's respective views, the obvious right thing to do (that all investors will rightfully require) will be to start building Agora on Autonomic, and later migrate it to Tau should Tau turn out to be a better fit. Basically, putting aside petty ego matters, it's in everybody's best interest that Tau and / or Autonomic make it to market asap, and that the whole ecosystem that was meant to come on top be equally suitable for either logical substrate.

But most importantly, as per my earlier argument that still stands unchallenged: no matter how different the underlying form of calculus, there exists a low enough abstraction level from which the code will be the same above which everything that's written for one of the platforms will work seamlessly on the other. One obvious argument that demonstrates this is the fact both projects claim to be able to recover OWL, if not directly at core-logic level due to different tradeoffs on expressiveness, at least at the level of the blockchain where unbounded iteration or arithmetic is recovered by continuation over a series of blocks. This at the very least establishes the fact that everything in the system that will be written using OWL can be shared between the projects. Although OWL has a limited expressiveness and isn't suitable to express complex behaviors, a huge amount of what a typical program intended for human consumption does isn't computational in nature and lands itself very well to being encoded as ontologies and linked-data sets in dynamic contexts. That means that the computational part that may involve different operations and patterns in MSOL and MLTT can be factorized out in a core-logic library that would be specific to each project with everything else written as generic OWL and shared. This is precisely what BOSCoin is doing by introducing a time-constrained FSM (TAL) to deal with all the stuff that OWL isn't able to express. BOSCoin may not be a "self-amending" / "self-evolving" ledger as advertised, but it got at least that part right: most of the stuff can be factorized out of the core logic and put in OWL format where it can be universally shared with other projects, and thanks to which it can reuse a lot of the already existing ontologies and datasets that have been created by experts of all fields in the scope of the Semantic Web initiative. Should Autonomic and Tau decide to build a common ecosystem using as much as possible existing Semantic Web standards for everything non-computational, we would be able to leverage all the tools developed for the Semantic Web like Protege, hire experienced ontologists from the Semantic Web community, and even start prototyping our stuff using a "naive Tau" approach by leveraging existing OWL reasoners like Fact++ or even BOSCoin's OWL+TAL engine when they deliver it.

A last argument that should clearly establish the need for a common ecosystem of generic programs is that in all likelihood neither of MLTT or MSOL are the silver bullet, the characteristica universalis sought after as the holy grail of logic. As research keeps making progress, even better calculi will be discovered that get always closer to the proverbial metal that the fabric of reality is made of, and we will want Tau / Autonomic to follow to get closer to the metal too. What is a "better" calculus? It could be something with a better balance of expressiveness and decidability. But it could also be a form of logic that allows to express programs as shorter strings, allowing to compress the entire Tau universe and bring it closer to kolmogorov complexity which is very likely to become the name of the game anyway as Tau starts looking for a useful form of Proof-of-Work and Agora brings online swaths of idle computing resources begging to be arbitraged.

If we have worked in silos with separate watertight ecosystems and programs infused with bits and pieces of the specific core logic they were designed to run on, neither Tau nor Autonomic will be able to upgrade when a better form of calculus is discovered and it will take yet another team and yet another project to fill the gap, leading to even more fragmentation of the industry and a general lose/lose for everyone involved.

I know I'm partially repeating myself. I know this is a touchy question. I know egos are involved and still scalded by the earlier dispute.
But this time around I really hope to get a substanciated answer - if not from both sides, at least of you Ohad - as of why I'm wrong, and why we should keep ignoring the other project in spite of the fact both projects have the same noble and philantropic goals, and only diverging views on technical aspects that, in hindsight, aren't all that important after all. Again, why not just burry the hatchet and admit that Tau has got two equally valid and promising research initiatives - which everyone else would consider to be an advantage - that could happily cohabit within a common higher level framework, with the community actively building on it? Even OWL has got many different subsets corresponding to different forms of logic and I'm not seeing anyone at the W3C making a fuss about it.

We have to design Tau as a calculus-agnostic project and get back the Autonomic folks on board. This is the only way for Tau to live up to its ambitions of universality. Ohad, HMC, any comments?
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April 21, 2017, 07:16:13 PM
 #1736

thanks, i'll try to touch all raised points, with some relevant unraised points:
my door is widely open for constructive collaboration with similar projects, tezos or autonomic, as well as with anyone dealing with these topics. i heard that autonomic is practically abandoned, as stoopkid found a full time job, and hmc doesn't code, but that's only what i heard. however there are some inflexibilities from all sides, while im aware of my own, and i refer to the end-goal agenda (i.e. the exact meaning behind the vague words "self-defining p2p network" or so). there are many differences between the projects, many of them are unpublished yet, but i'll try to touch only the relevant parts and hopefully the most of them.

i completely admit that the time taken is much more than i thought (i couldnt anticipate the problems with the original design but there's more to it). and i recognize that the progress is not visible. but it exists, very significantly, and honestly i've never been "stuck". recently Dana Edwards is trying to show it on his posts (which are written according to his own views and interests, yet they supply a lot of updates, as we discuss the progress every day).
indeed Dana is one big help i got recently. and there's another one on his way to physically stay with me and finish things. and there's more to tell. im fortunate to get all the help i request for. im almost flooded with good people around offering help. may it keep being so.

and indeed the main coarse is to make the initial mission as small as possible. it'll end up with a language similar to n3 with negation, and a structure of functions with in/out args (not much more to it!). that'd be the engine. then for messaging can use the simplest possible way (smtp as a silly example) just to bootstrap the semi-centralized social network that allows exchanging documents, even in command-line, but still with the prover's help.
it will allow much more. this thing is really not the language, but the meta-language. it is not a programming language, but logic that is able to speak about programs (that much, that it can express auto-synthesis-from-spec).

and this points to one substantial difference between autonomic design and my design even if they meet somewhere in the semweb world: on autonomic, the logic is the code itself. the prover's flow is the program's flow. that's what i refer to as "the curry-howard way". and this raise a lot of constraints aside requiring the programmar to be a semi-autoprover, like, the reasoner's flow must never change so it cannot use optimizations. on tau we'll have one meta-language, that is suited for processing languages. it'll be able, for example, to implement logic that takes a doc+grammar+semantics, and produce a theory, by emitting code than can answer queries for that theory, and form the answer in a given shape. writing an rdf parser+reasoner using it would be trivial. moreover, it'll also be a generic compiler. in principle, it'd be a better choice to write any compiler (like C++ compiler) using this methodology rather existing ones. it'd be like taking yacc, but letting it not only the grammar rules, but also the semantic and emission rules. all in much more friendliness than yacc. same for natural languages. there are many readily-made context-free english grammars that can be used for "simple enough english", that won't be so simple at all.
(when i said "any compiler" i also refer to "many interpreters, but not any". it won't be able to interpret C++ ofc. unless the user removes from the solver the "monadic" restriction... more to say here but not very to the topic)

also recall that n3 is significantly different from owl, see timbl's n3logic design doc. i dont claim to recover owl, at least not yet and not directly. the intention of the language is not for semweb-like uses at all, but merely a generic language processor, featuring the abilities of MSO and HORS (higher order recursion scheme). i dont claim yet to fulfill any semweb standard, but to help making it easy to import many of them. another rationale is to strip as much as possible and remain with the minimal core, at least for the beginning. yet another difference is monotonicity. we are specifically non-monotonic: you can change your mind even in a way that require revision of the previous beliefs, while rdf/owl/n3 are designed to be monotonic.

more specifically to the main point,
one of the recent conclusions is that the old design (same for tezos) cannot scale. it'll eventually dive into similar social problems like bitcoin, and will lead to centralization of control in which it'll be inherently unable to spread, if recalling human limitations. see Dana's description here https://steemit.com/tauchain/@dana-edwards/what-tauchain-can-do-for-us-effective-altruism-tauchain#@dana-edwards/re-trafalgar-re-dana-edwards-what-tauchain-can-do-for-us-effective-altruism-tauchain-20170417t144525348z
and this is a result of the language being complex and undecidable.
undecidability yields that whenever you say something, you need to prove it. and it might be the case that you say something true and you cannot prove it. but proving is a difficult mission, and cannot be fully automatic here. same for complexity: writing the curry-howard way, far to mention mltt, is hard. on the other hand, msol is so easy. let me quote from a recent email of mine explaining all msol in (max) 8th grader level (and it'll be even easier):

Quote
1. laballed graph is: take a piece of paper, draw circles (vertices) with words (labels) inside, and draw arrows (edges) between the circles with words (labels) as well. that's a labelled graph.
2. "atomic sentence" is to say either "x is labelled y" or "vertices x,y are adjacent with edge z".
3. propositional logic is all atomic sentences, glued with AND, OR, NOT, IMPLIES, and unlimited use of parenthesis. equivalently, using if-then-else.
4. first order logic is propositional logic, just the atomic sentences may contain holes (variables), with the additional prefix "for all" or "exists". i.e. "exists edge z such that x,y are adjacent with edge z" is a sentence that is true if and only if there's at least one edge in the graph.
5. monadic second order logic allows to do again the "forall" and "exists" trick, just like first order, but also for sets of vertices and edges. so you can say "there exists a set of vertices X such that if x is labelled t then x is a member of the set X".

that's all.

and not only easy, but decidability make us discover whenever we agreeor disagree, without even knowing. the most important event on tau is the case where everyone agree on something, let it be widely across the whole network, or among separated teams, or as a "social discovery" method (like "i'd like to find a mate that her theory about love stemming from her posts doesnt contradict my theory about love", or merely one's agent discovers that it is implied that someone doesnt like them. and that's where it begins to get addictive).

further, the first alpha will not deal with code at all. it'll deal only with logic, i.e. so-called "knowledge representation and resoning", and will not implement synthesis, self definition, and more. the second alpha is devoted for programs. so we'll begin with really minimal core, that'll give rise to collaborative dev, yet different and more lightweight than what the autonomic/tezos speak about.

as for monetization, i plan to begin using the existing tokens even before agoras or even the decentralized final tau chain, and that for the sake of paying for computational resources that has to do with the network itself, i.e., proving etc. already in the first network everyone will hold their own private data and calculate their own queries, while they might share data with each other. some people would like to pay, in agrs tokens, to a centralized entity or to other players, in order to do the calculations for them. especially when teams guided to some specific cause that require fast and comfortable solution.
(for the coin lockers, don't worry, you won't miss any profit opportunity, i'll never let it happen)

as for timed automata, note that there are many temporal logics in the world of formal verification and specification (LTL, CTL, mu-calculus, modal logic, modal mu calculus..). they are all subsets of mso! (and this fact is mentioned a lot over the literature). because the whole point with mso vs fo is that you can have as many sets as you like, that their definition depends on the definition of the indiviuals and vice versa (somehow like dependent types, but only first and monadic-second order, and the objects are n-relations [if hypergraphs are under concern]). it's just the decidability of mso was not known to be so wide until quite recently.

apropos optimal kolmogorov complexity of compression, kobayashi-ong typesystem has a striking such property www-kb.is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~koba/papers/hosc-fpcd.pdf and we will use it on our framework (not on first version though)

and apropos better calculus, indeed we just have a meta-language. all languages and logics are welcome! if not by interpretation, then by compilation. this is yet another deep structural difference between tau and tezos/autonomic.

the global problem of dis-collaboration, is the very problem we're trying to make temporary. indeed i claim that tezos/autonomic cannot do that in practice. it's can maximum be a researchware. they're not engineered to allow thousands or millions to build one program or idea together, in an actually practical, for everyone, and much-better-than-today way. even if math promises that it's possible, the human nature should at least partially be considered.

thriving to generality (multi-language, multi-logic, everything is amendable) is ofc an aspect relevant to fragmentation of the industry point you raised.

the most important rationale that that subsumes the architecture difference between the new tau and the others, is the requirement to make it work in the real world, as above. in large scale, in real life, with real people, and real machines, and to be really very useful.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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April 26, 2017, 04:34:28 AM
 #1737

I was notified that there is a 15% discount/bonus for tokens held in an OmniWallet...

is this offer still active?

if so, how long do they have to be held for?

and, is there any process to register or notify they're being held to receive the bonus - or is there some sort of tracking system attached to the tokens, whereby the 15% bonus will automatically be added into the OmniWallet holding the tokens at some later point?

please clarify, thanks.

looks like a very interesting project. curious to see how it evolves... :-)
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April 26, 2017, 07:21:18 PM
 #1738

I was notified that there is a 15% discount/bonus for tokens held in an OmniWallet...

is this offer still active?

if so, how long do they have to be held for?

and, is there any process to register or notify they're being held to receive the bonus - or is there some sort of tracking system attached to the tokens, whereby the 15% bonus will automatically be added into the OmniWallet holding the tokens at some later point?

please clarify, thanks.

looks like a very interesting project. curious to see how it evolves... :-)

thanks, see here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg17841993#msg17841993
no need to notify, just not to move the tokens and not to store them in an exchange, and when time comes (i.e. when the final coins will be ready or close to ready to distribute) additional tokens will arrive automatically.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
Kartaba
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April 26, 2017, 08:40:30 PM
 #1739

I ask people their thoughts about your project. I ask them: "What do you think of the project from Ohad Asor regarding his Tauchain / Agora's platform?".

They cant reply me because they honestly dont understand what im talking about. I also asked some youtubers making tradingvideo's etc and no one responded to the question.....But they mostly just follow volumes so thats expected. They will probably look into it when it starts trading perhaps?.

I hope some documentation would elaborate. I wish you all the strength and perseverance needed to accomplish your next move...... cough cough whitepaper!! cough cough Gimme! cough cough i needs it ^^

Cheers!

provenceday
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April 27, 2017, 03:59:06 AM
 #1740

one similar project is skycoin.

skycoin:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380441.0
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