Important announcement
BCNext devised a way to handover unclaimed coins in such a way that doesn't require multisig and still keeps the spirit of decentralization.
BCNext will choose 10 people. I'll contact these people privately to ask for an account id. Each of them will create a special account and send it to me. 1M NXT will be sent to each account (10M total, not 9M, so the community is supposed to subsidize the public nodes by itself). Jean-Luc will be asked to add a special code that blocks outgoing transactions from these special accounts. When the community decides how to spend part of the unclaimed coins, Jean-Luc will change the code to allow partial withdrawals possible. 10 chosen ones will send 1/10th of the required amount to the account the funds r supposed to go to.
Notes: Only account ids will be published, names of the people who control them will be known only to BCNext and me. Jean-Luc won't be included into this group. The goal of this obscurity is to remove community pressure on the chosen ones.
Discuss, the community may put veto on this approach.
Bad idea. REALLY BAD IDEA to change the client software and hard-define transaction rules inside the client. Am i alone who think so? Bad idea for a couple of reasons. 1. For the community at large, nothing really changes. It just seems like more complicated to get the fund out. 2. Security reason: one account should have at least two people having an access to. As it is now I assume both bcnext and CFB have an access to the fund. 3. As in the proposal, the account holder is basically just an account holder since he cannot transfer the fund out anyway, don't see the need for annonimity. 4. Software needs to be modified, seem like just more work to be done. 5. Not sure what kind of decentralization it is when bcnext hands pick 10 accounts. But it actually does not matter anyway since as in this plan, being an account holder just seems like to have an extra burden without any real authority. I would suggest bcnext and CFB just keep the fund for now until 1. We have a voting system in place or 2. Some kind of committee are formed. |
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utopianfuture, kindly answer my PM about tech details of the exchange. Thanks.
Asset exchange = colored coin tech. If you understand how colored coin works, you will understand asset exchange. You can read my first draft paper to understand how generally it is supposed to work. |
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Agree!!!:
More people burn now means less chance to get more than 10x return like Mastercoin in short time.
Those kind of return (10x -> 1000x) requires that people highly suspect it in the beginning and then later found it real and useful. The extreme case is Nxt. Almost no one trusted it in the IPO stage (they got 21 BTC only), and then when the client came out and it worked, the price shot up because the demand suddenly increases but most chips are controlled in the hand of a few people and it's quite easy for they to hold and see the price up to the sky.
For XCP, 1) people are already quite familiar with the idea due to MSC; 2) the 'Prove by Burn' removes the trust issue; 3) the client is working and we can see the source code, so you can see that there're already 1200 BTC burnt in less than half a month. The situation, however, is almost the same after the IPO. Most of people want to buy will burn now anyway. For the demand from those new comers, the supply (from those want quick profit of 30-40%) will be enough to keep the low price.
Therefore, no reason to expect the price could rise significantly without any big news (e.g. a beautiful and user friendly client; a famous asset such as AM moves in; or a lot of bets like those in bitbet are available).
There is already 60 times more Bitcoins invested in XCP than there was in Nxt. Considering that most people invest to make a quick profit : this is not gonna work ! The profit from the people that invested early in Nxt was about 50 times (like me). We may have 100 times more BTC invested in XCP. People may loose money  Yes. The risk is becoming more as the burned coin increase. The new burner may have great risk now. Every burners have lower stakes when new burners coming in. The only solution to keep the your percentage stake is to burn more. Since XCP functionality is very similar to mastercoin and it even has the codes compared to the vaporware in mastercoin, I don't see why XCP should not be valued at least half of Mastercoin market price. Fair XCP market cap valuation should be at 1/2 mastercoin market cap which is at 60 million$ right now. BTW: can anyone estimate how many days more until the burning is over ? |
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Got to apply Occam's Razor in situations like this:
Why would CfB/BCNext want to waste all of this time to scam people and then even care to write a source code, release it and let everyone else see it?
Why would CfB post hundreds of post in the span of a month on 2 forums if he was in it for a quick buck?
NXT already peaked at 10 cents and he is still around, still not pushing millions of NXT into marketing that would undoubtably skyrocket the price over night.
The likelihood of CfB being a scamartist is zero given the evidence we have. Could it be that he is BCNext and just a tad bit paranoid? Sure anyhting is possible, but the evidence presented does certainly not suggest this
I guess the initial plan has changed, now that Nxt has gained such a popularity. I do not mind him being paranoic or whatever - I would like to see publicly people make a team (foundation) and tell everybody that the source files are with them so that Nxt really grows more than any other individual this is good ! So is this drama over ? I am expecting more |
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BCNext and Come-from-Beyond are different, they use different language style
This is true I must say. But the other arguments are kind of stronger. It is not the problem with them being one or two persons. The problem is in the transparency and this anonymity craze of theirs... I noticed yesterday that I better focus on doing real works rather than trolling the forum. But can't wait to chip in a comment :" prepare popcorn and watch NXT fall 50% percent lower". Now go back to work come here to comment on common fund if you have not done so https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418695.0 |
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:)aiyaiya :)i,
maybe cause of the weather?
If Jean Luc release the nxt client, is this not an "single version" with many new features?
What am I missing?
Btw: I observe always the same behavior:
People become tired to be guided and restricted by authorities.
If some one gives the people freedom and the connected responsibility, people say "yeeeh, we are free!!!".
After a while, say get lost in there degrees of freedom and say "yeeeh, we need a leader".
And the cycle starts again ;-)
 paradoxical |
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We don't need features yet, we need plain vanilla user-friendly functionality to hold and transfer coins. We need a one-click client that Joe Sixpack can install and use. We need a dead simple API that other exchanges like Cryptsy can easily plug into and get us in the ability to trade with ease. We need a whitepaper that focuses with laserlike intensity on NXT's (1) PoS forging, (2) mini-blockchain (c) 1 minute transaction time and (d) 10,000+ transaction per second capability promoted as MAJOR SOLUTIONS to the looming disasters that are about to befall Bitcoin over their ludicrous PoW mining arms race, bloated 16GB blockblockchain, sluggish 10 minute transaction time and maximum 7 transaction per second limit. And we need a stated deadline for when full open source code will be released. Yes! I vote for centralized leadership and vision and effort to get us to that launch point. And I'm afraid there won't be any of the above without this. Cfb and BCNxt have refused. How can we contact JeanLuc? For me, everything hinges on this. What I don't get is people want all these things and no one seems to put effort into making these things happen. We need an easy client, ok sure, fine, someone program one, if you don't program, reach out to people who do. Find the people who are already working on native clients and offer to beta test. The API is well documented on the wiki. Parse through this thread and the others and fine people who are working on things or have won bounties. Create a wiki page for it. Create a thread here for it, post it in your signature, whatever. The whitepaper needs help sure, but I count only 10 of us working on it  Add, contribute, research, learn! +1 The concept is simple. 1. Decentralization means avoiding one single person/ organization making all important decisions. 2. Community involvement means you actively help to make things happen as you see fit. While this main thread is extremely disorganized, I don't see how it hinders NXT's core development process. BCNext, Cfb and Luc roll out new core updates all most every days. We have 4 full feature-clients in progress. People are actively working on Wiki (10 people or so), code debugging (10 people or so), Marketing ( +5 people), Activism (+5 people), econ-system apps (+10 people), asset exchange documentation (+2 people) etc. If you think you can help in any area, then say so yourself and make it work. I have asked for someone capable to write a first draft on voting principle and funding principle and the easy answer is to let Luc decide everything. But it is not going to work that way. |
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Just pondered the whole voting discussion a bit, too.
There is one thing about democracy that is frequently forgotten.
Democracy in all it's known forms always has rested on a foundation that is inherently nót democratic: the first constitution (as written by founders).
This circumscribes the boundaries that democracy has. Some things cannot be voted into law, because they are against the constitution.
This is a failsafe to protect the democracy itself.
Having a totally "fair" voting system is impossible, but one thing that any constitution tries to do is protect minorities against the rule of the majority.
I feel a lot of debate that has been had over the last days revolves around this fear.
Of course this starting point is centralised (or at least oligarchic) in nature, but the aim of the centralised limits that have been put in place should be to protect the decentralisation that comes after it. One way of making sure of this is that the rules should limit the power of the initial rule-makers. +1 You have said a lot of sensible things so far. The issue is very complicated and it is getting even more. I would suggest someone to sit down and write a solid first draft proposal for voting and also first draft proposal for funding. I am working on papers for the asset exchange so no time now. I doubt this will earn me any friends but I strongly disagree with you guys here. utopianfuture, you mention that the voting issue is getting very complicated. It will continue to do so until it becomes unwieldly and threatens to derail the entire project. We need a visionary leader who isn't afraid to make decisions. Naturally, that is someone in charge of the code. If somebody doesn't like it, they can fork the source code and start their own project. It's a beautiful thing. Someone (BCNext?, CfB?) needs to step up and unify this project under a single vision.If we try to turn the Nxt software project into some kind of a model for "the way things ought to be", it will die a slow and painful death. Gentoo Linux is a perfect example of this. When Daniel Robbins created the Gentoo Foundation and stepped down as chief architect, it was the beginning of the end for Gentoo. Much drama has unfolded since then and in spectacular fashion all over the internet. These days, Gentoo Linux is a shadow of its former self. NXT's single vision is decentralization and community involvement, imho . If i am not wrong, I share this vision with BCNext and Cfb. So you plan to count on BCNext or Cfb to make decisions for you, I think you would be disappointed. But if some points, this venture become too disarrayed and too fragmented that BCNext has to appear and decide everything then I will leave because because all my efforts have been fruitless. Up until that point, if you care about NXT, then giving up the habit of looking up for a leader and actually doing something. You yourself could actually shape the vision for NXT. |
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Just pondered the whole voting discussion a bit, too.
There is one thing about democracy that is frequently forgotten.
Democracy in all it's known forms always has rested on a foundation that is inherently nót democratic: the first constitution (as written by founders).
This circumscribes the boundaries that democracy has. Some things cannot be voted into law, because they are against the constitution.
This is a failsafe to protect the democracy itself.
Having a totally "fair" voting system is impossible, but one thing that any constitution tries to do is protect minorities against the rule of the majority.
I feel a lot of debate that has been had over the last days revolves around this fear.
Of course this starting point is centralised (or at least oligarchic) in nature, but the aim of the centralised limits that have been put in place should be to protect the decentralisation that comes after it. One way of making sure of this is that the rules should limit the power of the initial rule-makers.
My 2 Nxt
+1 You have said a lot of sensible things so far. The issue is very complicated and it is getting even more. I would suggest someone to sit down and write a solid first draft proposal for voting and also first draft proposal for funding. I am working on papers for the asset exchange so no time now. Damelon is my nominee to do so if he is willing to do so. If it could take a lot of time so let us know if someone else want to do something like that. Another call to voting https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418695.20 |
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thats unfortunate. it just means that we will have to hire a real cryptographer to do the review. it'll be a little more pricy but w/e. how much are you offering for the peer review?
10 BTC Yes, 10 BTC. That's why we r looking for a good cryptographer. Man that's awesome. I sure how you can find the right guy. Someone who's name carries with it a great deal of respect and credibility. This is a summary of the effort so far. I know it is hard to keep up with all the developments. https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=578 |
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I won't do and don't have to do anything if i don't want to.
But you want the community to decide, right? Anyway, this is a pointless argument. People will keep making the same mistakes over and over again. So, I guess, committee it is. I'll go buy more popcorn for the ensuing battle for half a million bucks... I want to freeze the acc. It is just my opinion though. |
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So what is your suggestion if the community wants to spend right now ? I want to know so i can add it to the poll.
Well, I've already suggested. And it doesn't matter whether BCNext wants to do it or not. If he decided that this fund is now the property of the community, then he has to obey what community will decide. And if it decides to make him choose the winners for the next round of bounties, then he must do it because of his own prior decision to delegate this decision to the community. You following the logic here? don't think so. I won't do and don't have to do anything if i don't want to. The same with BCNext. You can persuade him though. Try it. |
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New NXT stakeholder with some NXT can't do anything with NXT?  I am a new stakeholder with some NXT, what can I do with them? Play some silly gambling games? Do some intraday trading, which is a zero-sum game, except the bank always wins? What else? Are you saying that getting new NXT stakeholders is just a Ponzi scheme?
At this moment - yes. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it provides some growth in the beginning, but it should not be overdone. Anyway, if you're just talking about creating some webpage then I am off topic here. Still, don't we have enough friendly sites + wiki? Show me URL that leads a person curious about NXT directly to becoming NXT stakeholder of $25+ Last I saw, the best we have to offer a person who wants to get some NXT is: a) use exchanges (all of which have some issues and/or require BTC) b) post in forum thread and somehow buy NXT directly Tell me we understand the real world at least a little bit here. To get to 100,000+ NXT stakeholders, we need to expand beyond super technical forum regulars who already have BTC, to the typical intelligent person who uses the Internet. Am I wrong? James Then take an initiative and do it. A lot of things around here are done that way. Nxtwiki, Nxt foundation webpage, nxtarea etc. are all done by individual initiatives first. These kind of efforts should be the main mode of operation we are working under. |
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that was in the Utilities category. Pin oh okie. |
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Could you initiate a contact ? We might not have to spend 10BTC after all |
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...there is no other way except forming a committee.
Let's not make such definitive claims please. So what is your suggestion if the community wants to spend right now ? I want to know so i can add it to the poll. |
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and what if the nxt community IS the committee ?...
nxt api could be used/hacked to make a poll system, with messaging included. Any user could create a poll for a project with reward. If there is enough votes (% of the community ?), the project is launched. Moreover, it could be possible to add api calls to register apps, returning a unique app/project token-id, which allows to count numbers of registered users and votes for each app/projects afterwards, and gives the winner of the award.
Don't know exactly how this could be done now, but couldn't this be added to the API2 ?
The voting system could be designed to do such thing. And that's the idea behind the choice of freezing the fund until we have the infrastructure to do so in place But if the community insists on spending now, there is no other way except forming a committee. |
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Are you saying that if we got 2000 extra people purchasing $50,000 a day of NXT, that won't help NXT? I am very confused.
It will help create a Ponzi scheme. Real strength is in something tangible, i.e. technological advancements and created products/services, where you can actually use NXT. Simply tricking people to spend money to buy these, mostly useless, "shares" is not enough. Marketing and promotions are important, but not 7 out of 9 millions! It should be something like a third or 25%. +1 Let's the discussion going on. We have a long journey head |
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BCNext won't do it so I will not add that option.
Did he specifically tell you this or is it just your opinion? My idea is precisely to delegate decisions by spreading large chunks. With committee there will be too much fighting and too much grief as a result, to say nothing of its efficiency. Who will decide who will be on the committee? I, for example, don't think that spending 7 out of 9 mil on marketing is a good idea. And other people will have other ideas. Not to mention that practically every notable person in Nxt community has a pet project of theirs, so will inevitable be biased. CFB told everyone. |
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