Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[sleevedbiker]

It's a scam until it's not.

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.
However, I think you're one of the people who didn't read the "preorder" print on the page and now you're upset that you have been waiting for so long... You know, since we are playing the guilty til proven innocent asinine of a theory.

[darkmule]

Yet another moronic less than 20 post newly created shill account to add to the ignore list.

[ranlo]

It's a scam until it's not.

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

The worst part is that in court (at least in the US) you have to prove it was a deliberate scam as well. For example, if you gave them money and their company fell due to not being able to create the product, that wouldn't be a scam. It would have to mean that they knew before they even started that they were stealing your money and had planned out how they were going to do it.

[sleevedbiker]

It's a scam until it's not.

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

The worst part is that in court (at least in the US) you have to prove it was a deliberate scam as well. For example, if you gave them money and their company fell due to not being able to create the product, that wouldn't be a scam. It would have to mean that they knew before they even started that they were stealing your money and had planned out how they were going to do it.

Correct which is what a scam actually is. I think too many people on this forum seem to not comprehend the definition of "scam". However, in a court room, if you paid for a product or service and it was not delivered to you than they would have to refund you that said money.

[darkmule]

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

Wasn't that hard for the prosecutor to prove Sonny V. was a felon.  Perhaps he was innocent at one point, but now he's a convicted felon.

[aaron25177]

i figure they will ship something eventually, but by the time it arrives it wont matter, the next new and improved thing will be coming out from someone else.

[FUKT]

My two cents in this debate: If BFL were any other mainstream company and they released a product with preorder and then people were waiting a year for a product, what would you think?

[FUKT]

You're a CEO. Act like one

Just one more example of why you're and idiot.  If you even bothered to look up the most basic facts, you'd realize I'm not the CEO and never have been.  Heh.  You can't even get that straight and you expect others to believe your completely illogical arguments that have no basis in reality?  Right... how's that working out for you?

Puerto Libre needs to watch out, he's got some competition for his crown, it would seem.

Hmm I'd trust a company with my money when they have associates that argue on forums about the product they are selling.

[Xian01]

You're a CEO. Act like one

Just one more example of why you're and idiot.  If you even bothered to look up the most basic facts, you'd realize I'm not the CEO and never have been.  Heh.  You can't even get that straight and you expect others to believe your completely illogical arguments that have no basis in reality?  Right... how's that working out for you?

Puerto Libre needs to watch out, he's got some competition for his crown, it would seem.

Hmm I'd trust a company with my money when they have associates that argue on forums about the product they are selling.

You would ?

[Justsumdude]

get a refund while you can

[Li Xia]

In my opinion there should be some kind of an announcement on their web site, most companies, especially small and indie-like ones, got every social platform (fb, t, g+) and they keep updates quite often. Sometimes it's borderline spam but people are informed and in case of BFL their news are like of an "depressed attention who*e". And they don't even bother to delete or respond to accusations on their own fb page from what I've seen.

Not having to prove you are innocent is one thing but running a company flagged by community as scam or shady one is risky, unprofessional and leads to gossips.

Really, imagine you ordered new car about 9 months ago. Company got 2-3 positive reviews by the blogs/sites dedicated to the cars, people are hyped and wait for their ordered cars to arrive from China. And them wait. The only thing company is doing is posting, on a rare event, some already know facts and another videos of being praised by some car-guru... I'm guessing most people would get at least inpatient. And to pay "guru" some money and ship him one unit (of the limited, actually working series) just to get some feedback and giving few money backs (actually forced by the bank/money transfer company) still doesn't ring a bell?

Real company would rage and fight for their image unless, they got enough money not to care anymore- just what happened here.

Of course, I could later eat my own words if the units are shipped but shouldn't those already have had arrived in the Q4 of 2012? And we are mid Q2 of 2013. I wouldn't really want to wait that long for a overhyped car which seems to be too good to be real. (If you could make scams in professional science magazines about two identical snowflakes BFL looks like taking a candy from a kid.)

[sleevedbiker]

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

Wasn't that hard for the prosecutor to prove Sonny V. was a felon.  Perhaps he was innocent at one point, but now he's a convicted felon.

Can you show me a government website that shows this information? Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today.

[Schrankwand]

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

Wasn't that hard for the prosecutor to prove Sonny V. was a felon.  Perhaps he was innocent at one point, but now he's a convicted felon.

Can you show me a government website that shows this information? Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today.

Sonny has gone on a plea bargain so the prosecutor didnt have to prove shit. He didnt even get a trial, since he cut a deal and simply went to jail.

[darkmule]

Sonny has gone on a plea bargain so the prosecutor didnt have to prove shit. He didnt even get a trial, since he cut a deal and simply went to jail.

Yes, which means it's proven for all intents and purposes, such as a subsequent civil suit.

I'm sure he just pled guilty for the fun of it because he loves prison, though.  He didn't actually do any of that shit.

[mfalme]

People are still trying to buy one of these?  

[charleshoskinson]

So Josh care to comment on the 500 GH minirig?

[Schrankwand]

Sonny has gone on a plea bargain so the prosecutor didnt have to prove shit. He didnt even get a trial, since he cut a deal and simply went to jail.

Yes, which means it's proven for all intents and purposes, such as a subsequent civil suit.

I'm sure he just pled guilty for the fun of it because he loves prison, though.  He didn't actually do any of that shit.

I am not making judgements here, since I have no clue about the case. However, if you have ever been accused of anything and been put under pressure by a hot shot prosecutor who wants indictments more than anything, who will try getting you 400 years in prison on your first offence... well if you have a shitty lawyer, you might just want to say yes to that even if you are innocent.

Again: Im not making any call on Sonny. Taking the bargain might have been a deal even if he would have been innocent and simply "badly affiliated." I am quite glad to have a lawyer that would likely answer "U MAD??!?!?!" and demand a trial for me here in Germany... lucky we have only had civil law suits so far, mostly about people trying to rip ME off.

[sleevedbiker]

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

Wasn't that hard for the prosecutor to prove Sonny V. was a felon.  Perhaps he was innocent at one point, but now he's a convicted felon.

Can you show me a government website that shows this information? Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today.

Sonny has gone on a plea bargain so the prosecutor didnt have to prove shit. He didnt even get a trial, since he cut a deal and simply went to jail.

Being in jail would still put him on over 30 websites and show his arrest record. So, show hard evidence. Not just he said, she said and hearsay.


"Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today."

[bitbyebit]

In America it's innocent until proven guilty. If they're a scam then you should have no problem proving it.

I agree with this, but sometimes it is hard to prove as well.

Wasn't that hard for the prosecutor to prove Sonny V. was a felon.  Perhaps he was innocent at one point, but now he's a convicted felon.

Can you show me a government website that shows this information? Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today.

Sonny has gone on a plea bargain so the prosecutor didnt have to prove shit. He didnt even get a trial, since he cut a deal and simply went to jail.

Being in jail would still put him on over 30 websites and show his arrest record. So, show hard evidence. Not just he said, she said and hearsay.


"Also, just because someone does something wrong, doesn't mean they will continue doing it. The top burglars in the world have created the best security systems. Hell even Kevin Mitnick went on to design some of the best security features that are even in use on bank checks today."

?

[tinus42]

A very good scam, though. Gain some credibility and use that to get money until people realize what you're really made out of. At that point, you might have a product working and gain more trust. Run on that for a little more and keep going.

That box showed at Bitcoin Convention can be fake, very easy to do this. 

Or they only have built like 5 of them. Back when Apple showed their first Apple ][ at the Westcoast Computer Faire in 1977 they only had 5 computers built. They did manage to deliver though eventually. Lots of computer companies in the '70s/'80s did the same and failed to deliver and went broke, leaving their customers holding the bag. The current ASIC market is VERY reminiscant of that early period of personal computing. Exciting times but potentially very costly if you make the wrong choice.