Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[de_ixie]

as usual the above follow the conclusions I really really have NO IDEA....still grappling with all this

Searing

Something some folks may not be considering is the resale value of their system, or lack thereof. If KNC doesn't allow for a transfer of equipment, will they allow a transfer of mining contract? At least with the hardware, there's always someone out on ebay willing to buy it from you, likely above MSRP even if you can sell it soon after receiving.

You could still subcontract the miner out, but would you ever get $13k back from it? Doubtful.

If it were me, I would look at it like this: A lot of the folks who were KNC-crazy the past few months, who claim to have made huge profits on their first units, either didn't preorder the Neptune or refunded their Neptunes over the past month.

That's worth considering.

All correct - still - in case KnC provides 3 TH for CA batch in - lets say mid of April - I still consider it a good deal - virtual or nonvirtual. This is for sure under the assumption they have honest motives, which a lot of people in here doubt (me not btw).

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[wasubii]

as usual the above follow the conclusions I really really have NO IDEA....still grappling with all this

Searing

Something some folks may not be considering is the resale value of their system, or lack thereof. If KNC doesn't allow for a transfer of equipment, will they allow a transfer of mining contract? At least with the hardware, there's always someone out on ebay willing to buy it from you, likely above MSRP even if you can sell it soon after receiving.

You could still subcontract the miner out, but would you ever get $13k back from it? Doubtful.

If it were me, I would look at it like this: A lot of the folks who were KNC-crazy the past few months, who claim to have made huge profits on their first units, either didn't preorder the Neptune or refunded their Neptunes over the past month.

That's worth considering.

Yup - and i bought coin instead.

Paid BTC10.71 for the customer appreciation batch.

Refunded $10,210

Bought coin for $762 each for a total of BTC13.34

BTC2.63 gain

One reason I bought the Neptune with BTC was because i thought it would be a good hedge against BTC/USD dropping

[Biffa]

So I asked them.  I emailed them some questions and this is the response. I received the response from Keith Gurnett

Q3. Have you been manufacturing 28nm Miners all the time since you stopped the last batch of November Jupiters?
A3. No, we are creating the data center now for "Plan B" as a back up to be used if there are any delays with the Neptune production.

Q4. If so, have you been mining with the 28nm miners manufactured since November?
A4. We are mining, but we have not exceeded the 5% of the hash rate which has been released.

Q7. What date will you start offering to convert non-delivered Neptunes into hosted 28nm, and how much will be exchanged?
A7. Like above, if there are any delays customers will be provided with the hosted hash rate.

So... if they cessated manufacturing of 28nm jupiter modules; what exactly is powering the creation of their "World's largest" 28nm mining farm? Unicorn hashers?
If they haven't been manufacturing more 28nm jupiter modules, then just how many thousands did they hoard since the last sale in November? 

Got an update to my Q3. Have you been manufacturing 28nm Miners all the time since you stopped the last batch of November Jupiters?

Keith (kncminer)
Feb 07 15:12
Hi,
Apologies for the delay in replay and for not answering your question clearly. We have not been manufacturing 28nm miners since the shipping of the November batch completed. Our first priority is to develop and produce the 20nm Neptune miners and plan B will be put in place as a backup.
If you have any further questions please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Best regards  |
Med vänlig hälsning
Keith Gurnett
Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253 20

[Cablez]

Yup - and i bought coin instead.

Paid BTC10.71 for the customer appreciation batch.

Refunded $10,210

Bought coin for $762 each for a total of BTC13.34

BTC2.63 gain

One reason I bought the Neptune with BTC was because i thought it would be a good hedge against BTC/USD dropping

This +1000

Definite BTC ROI instead of elusive 'hope for', much less electricity cost, win/win.  It may not be as much fun as hardware mining but the results speak for themselves.

[soy]

TGB's 60 and 90 day estimates aren't garbage, they've done fairly well over the last few months. Back in September it was showing about a billion for January, and that wasn't far off.

So far, the people saying things like this are also the same people who got everything else wrong in this thread. Meanwhile myself, Avenger, and our non-english speaking friend, have had really great projections and speculation-come-true.

Bitcoin works well at $10 or $100? What does that matter? I'm sure it would work well at $1,000,000 also. Sounds like some folks are just upset and want hardware makers to suffer.

TGB works good for short term, but it (at least historically) continues to extrapolate an exponential increase in hashrate over the longer term. I haven't used that calc in several months, so this may be old news.

However, when it was first used to generate a lot of FUD, it showed such. That has already tapered off. What we'll likely see in coming months is a number of spikes where it goes up by a lot, followed by a small climb for a couple of diff periods. Then it will taper off. The problem, of course, is predicting how those spikes and valleys will happen. This is essentially impossible in the long term, and this is not solely a bitcoin problem. We know who the major players are, but there is a lot of interest in building and disseminating hashpower. Ultimately it will come down to the mix of exchange rate and electric costs.

Which seems to me to be a great opportunity, one I'm going to pursue. Off grid power generation is going to become necessary to the mining community sooner rather than later, or else a great many of these machines are indeed NOT going to achieve positive ROI in the not too distant future. Even if you, like me, don't care whether that ROI is bitcoin or fiat or gold or fucking cows. Yet if you could generate your own power, the useful life of the machines becomes indefinite, rather than extremely finite. I've long been interested in small scale power generation anyway. I have some interesting ideas along those lines, and when I get them firmed up a little better I'll start a thread regarding that. Not sure what subforum it should be on, though

On topic, I suspect that this hosting facility of KNCs is going to be a PR disaster for them. I think they would have been smarter to just do it quietly, sell Jupiters, and be up front about any delays. I think such a center would be good for the network as a whole, as it would put a cramp on CEX and force them to be more competitive in their share prices, plus leading just generally to more competition in cloud mining. But they way they appear to be doing this is, frankly, stupid.

I served on guppy2's, electric boats built in the late 1940's.  Ah, to have a single 1.5v cell from one of those.  Each cell weighted a few tons.

[merv77]

KNC offers 3 options to all fully paid Neptune customers.

source: http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-offers-plan-b-case-neptune-miner-delivery-delay/



does this mean a 6 month contract costs $9,995

[pedrosoft]

I purchased a Neptune. I'll wait because I think difficult jumps will be in order between 15-20 % max.

[soy]

KNC offers 3 options to all fully paid Neptune customers.

source: http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-offers-plan-b-case-neptune-miner-delivery-delay/



does this mean a 6 month contract costs $9,995

Choice 1 and 3 are mutually exclusive?  Take door number 3 and never get the actual Neptune?

[merv77]

if you ask me even orama doesn't like the turn of events otherwise he'd be here posting.

you think he's regretting he took a job at KNC?

[NetTime]

Choice 1 and 3 are mutually exclusive?  Take door number 3 and never get the actual Neptune?

Yes nd. clarification on this.  Damn them I want the physical device.

[Ghrindy]

if you ask me even orama doesn't like the turn of events otherwise he'd be here posting.

you think he's regretting he took a job at KNC?

+1 (first remark)
second question: no

[The Avenger]

KNC offers 3 options to all fully paid Neptune customers.

source: http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-offers-plan-b-case-neptune-miner-delivery-delay/

Neptune customers t-shirt UPDATE:

FRONT: I gave KNC $13,000 for a Neptune

BACK: And all I got was this lousy 3TH cloud hashing contract for 6 months

[soy]

We are given to understand and believe that since the November sale of upgrade modules, KnC has added nothing to the network hashrate, that the near constant growth has not included any new KnC miners.  But we do not know how many KnC 28nm ASIC chips were sold to private buyers if any.

That the 28nm Jupiter farm yet to be deployed in northern Sweden will accelerate the ongoing hashrate rise while if we choose to take possession of the Neptune we will not be given compensation from that Jupiter farm.

[rolling]

Can anyone show a realistic projection where the Neptune makes back the initial BTC in 6 months with a delivery past April?

[soy]

what, and start a stampede?  are you nuts?

[joeventura]

Hell what infuriates me is that KNCs position is:

We aren't selling any upgrade modules to the people that launched our company, but we are going to manufacture hundreds or even thousands of them for ourselves and not sell our customers a single one because we want all the money for ourselves.

Its like they are saying:

"if you bought an upgradeable Mercury and you didn't get modules when we sold them for 7 minutes last year, well screw you!"

So glad I didnt get on the Neptune bandwagon. Amazing how greed and success gets to you and you forget who "brought you to the dance"

'Orama is a good man and I know he is embarrassed for KNC.

[vesperwillow]

We are given to understand and believe that since the sale of upgrade modules, KnC has added nothing to the network hashrate, that the near constant growth has not included any new KnC miners.  But we do not know how many KnC 28nm ASICs were sold to private buyers if any.

That the 28nm Jupiter farm yet to be deployed in northern Sweden will accelerate the ongoing hashrate rise while if we choose to take possession of the Neptune we will not be given compensation from that Jupiter farm.

This is a particularly interesting thing to note, especially for folks skeptical of the fact that KNC purposefully failed to uphold their NPS claims, kicked its customers in the nuts, and walked off laughing.

* Up to the start of the NPS window, they emphasized that they would absolutely open up the doors for more orders if competitors shipped hashrate

* They maintained for the duration of the NPS window, that no competitors were shipping hashrate.

* The network rate increased significantly during the NPS window, this can only occur when more systems come online, which typically occurs when new systems are produced and turned on

* They then say they didn't increase the network after Batch 2

* They claim they certainly didn't manufacture or sell anything after Batch 2

* Anyone who isn't KNC but who makes Bitcoin ASIC systems, is a competing manufacturer

* If KNC didn't sell, produce, manufacture or ship bitcoin systems, but the network rate rose noticeably, then someone else did--which means competitors shipped hashrate

Basically, they didn't want to sell more hashrate to its customers because they knew they could deliver the product swiftly and that it would work. Why would this matter to them? It cuts their own mining profits down to a wire-thin margin. It also would've guaranteed they couldn't charge ape-rape amounts for the Neptune, because nobody would buy it 6 months out when the difficulty was stupid-high, for that price at least.

As has been repeated, it would not benefit their existence to sell you more products as they promised. It does benefit them, however, to crowd-fund a datacenter where they get free mining equipment and free electricity to mine with.

Think about it

Can anyone show a realistic projection where the Neptune makes back the initial BTC in 6 months with a delivery past April?

A billion pages back myself and some others outlined our projections for the Neptune and why we refused to preorder it. I don't have a link to the post, but essentially it goes like this: Based on our estimated difficulty math, unless you got the miner in March or first half of April, it would not make back its BTC cost in its lifetime.

I believe my estimate was that if you got it by May 1st, you would make back at most 4-7 BTC, and that's with Lady Luck on your lap.

Bear in mind, the difficulty we're at now is a smidge higher than I thought it would be for February, so my projections are now slightly worse. Q1 delivery is paramount to ROI, first couple weeks Q2 delivery is your last bet for hope. Beyond that, it's a brick.

[Syke]

Bear in mind, the difficulty we're at now is a smidge higher than I thought it would be for February, so my projections are now slightly worse. Q1 delivery is paramount to ROI, first couple weeks Q2 delivery is your last bet for hope. Beyond that, it's a brick.

You do realize by now that Q1 delivery is impossible, don't you?

[vesperwillow]

Bear in mind, the difficulty we're at now is a smidge higher than I thought it would be for February, so my projections are now slightly worse. Q1 delivery is paramount to ROI, first couple weeks Q2 delivery is your last bet for hope. Beyond that, it's a brick.

You do realize by now that Q1 delivery is impossible, don't you?

Lol, yes. That's the point I'm making in answering his question.

For $10-13k, people could've bought a nice chunk of silver or gold. A much more valuable brick.

[soy]

We are given to understand and believe that since the November sale of upgrade modules, KnC has added nothing to the network hashrate, that the near constant growth has not included any new KnC miners.  But we do not know how many KnC 28nm ASIC chips were sold to private buyers if any.

That the 28nm Jupiter farm yet to be deployed in northern Sweden will accelerate the ongoing hashrate rise while if we choose to take possession of the Neptune we will not be given compensation from that Jupiter farm.

And when that Jupiter farm comes online it will change the slope of network hashrate, maybe not the way the October and November sales did but there will surely be a sharp rise.

And that sharp rise will be punishing to the mined btc return of Neptunes to be eventually shipped to those who opt for possession and ownership of the hardware.